In the few Black Tomato (yellow epidermis) x Red Tomato (yellow epidermis) crosses that I have made, the fruit was uniformly red on all F1 plants.

In the few Purple Tomato (clear epidermis) x Pink Tomato (clear epidermis) crosses I have made, the fruit was uniformly pink on all F1 plants.

The segregation and recombination for black/purple began expressing in the F2 and F3.

what you call "black" is due to a single recessive gene that has 5 known alleles (different forms of the same gene).

If you want a "black" F1 both parents will need that gene.

So if you don't mind me asking hoosier, what do you mean by yellow epidermis clear epidermis? Do all "black" tomatoes have yellow epidermises, how do you tell?

I'm not Bill, but epidermis = skin. If the fruit has a
yellow skin, it's described as black. If the skin is clear,
then it's described as purple.

Lee

Lee is right and I think the same applies to Red (yellow skin) and Pink (clear skin).

Susan

Huh, so this is what I have gathered. so the color of the epidermis combined with the layer right behind it creates the color?

Skin color affects over all color just for red and pinks.

Blacks are called "black" with either clear or yellow. skin. "Purple" was the term used for pink tomatoes in the old days. This can be seen in names such as Prudens Purple, and Eva's Purple Ball, so refering to a pink-black as a purple tomato is often confusing.

Green-when-ripes are green regardless of skin color even thought the ones with yellow skin are often amber.

At the risk of just confusing, I will try to clarify what a "black" is. First, I dont like the term black as it is misleading and as I will discuss later there are variations which all fall under this term.

There are several points I'd like to make though:

• There are two things that make a black - the skin and the flesh

• "black" flesh is from two basic genes

• There are "purplish" fleshed tomatoes

Skin (epidermis) and flesh (the meat of a tomato which are the pericarp, septa, columnella and locules)

The skin is only a thin layer. There are three variations of skin that I know of: yellow (the dominant form). clear (recessive) and striped (a separate incompletely dominant gene).

One can simply look at a tomato's outside appearance and determine the color as mentioned by other posters. However if you still can't tell by looking that way, then peel off some skin, scape off any flesh cells still sticking to it and hold it the light. It will either be clearly yellow or whitish (clear).

'Cherokee Purple' compared to 'Cherokee Chocolate' is a good example of the clear vs yellow skin and its effect on outside appearance.

Striped skin can have either yellow or clear versions depending on which genes are present.

Flesh with black and purples gets a little more complicated. I mentioned previously the green fleshed gene gf is responsible. But in order to get a black and/or purple the red gene must also be present. So at the most basic level two genes make it happen.

Here's where it gets more complicated. There are actually variations on red and the green flesh genes called alleles, modifiers or quantitative trait loci (QTL's which are several genes acting together) which can subtly alter their appearance. Some might not notice the difference or think the differences has to do with ripeness but their are differences. So there are differences in the red and the green flesh genes (yellow does this too) which ultimately blend to give a certain color perception.

When one combines red and green with paints they end up with "brown". But with the cells of the flesh some express red, some green, and some a mix. It's the combination of those cells and their percentages that determines how that flesh is perceived as either reddish, purple or what I think is a better description than black, "brown". That would be analogous to how much or what types of red or green one used in the paint to get a different shades of brown.

With just red, there is a basic dominant gene but there can be variations in or to that gene that make the flesh express different shades of reds. Which ever are present effects the red color and the way it interacts to...

Wow mulio that is a lot to take in but it is exactly what I needed to know thank you.

Bravo, Mulio

I never studied botany, instead went to engineering and math.
So, your article is fascinating to me.
Thanks.
cyrus

Thanks Mulio,

Do you know any history of Philippine no 2 (When introduced?). My feelings were always that C.P. came from a gardener that just happened to be Cherokee, and that whatever tomatoes anybody had in the 1800s came from seedsmen one way or another and originated with whatever came over from Europe initially or was developed from those tomatoes. Did our Cherokee gardener get his hands on Philippine no.2 at the turn of the century?

It looks like my Black Plum x Lime Green Salad is going to be putting out some variable offpring.

P.S. Isn't it "Ailsa" Craig, named after the Rock where they get curling stones?

Here is what I gleaned from older Reports of the Tomato Genetic Cooperative:

my comments are in red

1956

Green flesh, gf

Kerr, E.A.

The fruit of a late-blight resistant tomato obtained from the Central Experimental Farm, Ottawa, as Philippine #2 is much fasciated and, when ripe, is a dirty purplish brown color. This ripe fruit color is recessive in the F1 and gives monogenic F2 segregation ratios (3 reds to 1 black). The fruit color is caused by a failure of the chlorophyll to break down when the lycopene is formed. Hence both chlorophyll and lycopene are present in the mature fruit. Since r r fruits (yellow flesh) do not form lycopene, fruits of r r gf gf genotype have a green color when mature. Preliminary tests indicate that gf may be linked (close on the same chromosome and likely seen together) with al (anthocyanin loser gene) in group VI and also with the type of fasciation found in Philippine #2. (Both traits were later reported as not found to be linked)

1961 (in pedigree appendix)

Nagcarlang Tomato type from the Philippines.

Graham, T. O., Horticulture Department, O.A.C. Guelph, Ontario.

The description of the Nagcarlang tomato type which follows has been made up in part from information given by Dr. Eugenio E. Cruz, Director, Bureau of Plant Industry. Manila, Republic of the Philippines and from Dr. Howard Peto, Peto Seed Company, Saticoy, California. The Nagcarlang tomato is the only type which will set fruit in high humidity areas throughout the Philippines. For this reason, during the winter of 1948--49, Dr. Peto called at Manila to see if the Nagcarlang tomato type could be used in a breeding programs so that a canning tomato for the Philippines would result. He also took tomato varieties, over to Mindanao and the Southern Philippines,of which Kolea and Anahu have proven adaptable.

Under Ontario greenhouse condition the flowers of Nagearlang are open in type and the pistils are exposed. As a result one must place pollen on the pistils if pollination is to take place. In the tropics high insect activity possibly carries out cross polination.

The Nagcarlang type has come into Ontario in two shipments. The first seed obtained has been written up in Scientific Agriculture 32:57-66, 1952. As far as is known the only surviving member in breeding programmes of the first shipment made to Ontario in 1948 is the type known as Philippine #2. Dr. Eugenio E. Cruz forwarded Nagcarlang to Guelph in the second shipment made in 1959, this seed having been gathered at Laguna in the Philippines.

In the Philippines Nagcarlang is known to be a wild-type tomato. Its history is unknown. It is not a variety as no two plants are alike. It is simply a heterozygous form which has survived in the jungles of the Philippines and which has also been brought under cultivation and even sold commercially. Dr, Peto has verbally stated that in the Philippines the Nagcarlang type has survived-and become pollinated...

Mulio, I was especially interested in the gf allele assignments to the various varieties mentioned b'c there is a pattern that makes sense to me.

And that pattern reflects not only possible origins of varieties but also those that were the result of natural cross pollination as well as deliberate breeding and then stabilized out to an OP.

Schwarze Sarah is really Sara Black, bred by Joe Bratka in the US but translated to SS in Germany so one can't associate SS with Germany, per se.

And maybe now is the time for me to ask Linda Sapp what her husband Vince, now deceased, used to breed Black Cherry. I'd asked her before about parentage and all she'd own up to was that the cherry variety Black Sweet was not part of the parentage.

The variety Black Crimson has appeared quite recently and most are equating it with Black Krim which it can't be b'c the gf allese are different. I've been trying to trace who first made Black Crimson avaialable but haven't been able to pin it down. If anyone has any information I'd appreciate it. There are two wholsale companies in CA that deal in high end fruits and vegetables and in the past I know that one of them has changed the names of known varieties to indicate something new and different.

Nagcarlang has been listed in the SE YEarbook for many years and is listed in the pink/purple section and the current offering is by SSE itself, seeds from an SSE member who is no longer active and had a huge collection, and the current listing says pink fruits.

There are also listings of Wild Phillipine ones listed, but I didn't take the time to riffle through my back Yearbooks to see if any of the them were Phillipine #2.

I've tended to see the so called blacks as either black/reds or black pinks based on visual exteriro color/epidermis color determined,and there are quite a few of the black/pinks that are listed in the pink/purple section of the Yearbook while most of the black/reds are in the other color section.

Carolyn, not part of the "black" tomato fad, but would admit to being part of the green when ripe current fad. LOL

Livingston mentioned collecting fence row tomatoes of several different colors as a boy in Central Ohio in the 1830s-40s. From his description they sound like feral ornamentals, so it is possible that that particular gf allele was around in European/Spanish ornamentals taken to the Philippines and other places centuries ago, and then went nearly extinct when people stopped growing the ornamentals. So it is possible that the allele was in the North America before Philippine no 2 got here.

On the other hand, I grew up with a father who would think nothing of making up a story to give you an answer rather than saying "I don't know", so I could see him giving me seeds from a grocery store Roma and being told that my grandfather brought them back from Africa.

Is there any evidence of breeding lines from Philippine no2.

spiced, I do know that there were dark colored varieties here in the US back in the mid to late 1800's. At another site there's a long discussion about the variety True Black Brandywine and Tom Wagner also contributed some info about known maroon, dark colored varieties present here in the US long ago, and maybe not that long ago.

I can't transfer that thread here b'c GW doesn't allow for other message sites to be posted here and in transferring it it's ASAP known b'c of the formatting, which is different than here.

Keith, you've also showed pictures of dark colored accessions from the Rick Center. Do you know where they were from? I know, I know, I could go look but you know the PGRC site so much better than I do that you could do it much quicker.

Speaking to just one comment made in an above post, Craig LeHoullier got the variety now known as Cherokee Purple from J D. Green of TN and it had no name. John had told Craig that the woman he got it from said that it had been grown by the Cherokee. Craig just used the info he was given and at firat called it Cherokee Brick Red, which unfortunately is still listed in the SSE YEarbook, and then changed the name to Cherokee Purple.

All attempts for John to track down the lady who gave him him the seeds have failed, so no other info is known.

At yet another message site a woman from NC said she had seeds directly from some local Cherokee and was offering seeds. I'm growing it out this summer as is Craig, but not holding my breath b'c she also says she has the only this and that variety as an original, which I know to not be true. Oh well.

I would hope that some of the researchers could look at some of the black accessions from the PGRC, b/c it might be useful.

When I have time I'll try to transfer here at least the names of the dark colored varieties known from the early to mid 1800's, but alas, I think all of them are now extinct, but were described in various publications, some of which were cited in that thread elsewhere.

To me it's perfectly possible that what the Cherokee were growing could well have been one of those dark colored varieties known to be in the US in the 1800's.

Additionally, as spiced has already mentioned, it was the Spanish who first distibuted seeds, from Mexico, to the Caribbean and Spain and also to the Phillipines, all on their trading routes at the time, which introduces yet another slant to this interesting story.

The Crimean region has long been thought to be the source of the original dark colored varieties, and I think that's up for reconsideration as well.

Right now I'm in my medieval mystery reading mode but can switch ASAP to any tomato mystery mode quickly, and have. LOL

Carolyn

FEGEE TOMATO shown at this link to page 65 of The Tomato in America, Andrew Smith, is it from Philipines or Italy?

Check it out. Fegee Beefsteak, offered by Livinston in 1878, alleged to be parent of so-called "True Black Brandywine" and alleged to have been a "maroon" beefsteak not dissimilar otherwise to Crimson Cushion, aka Ponderosa Red, aka Beefsteak.

Could Cherokee Purple have been derived from commerically sourced Fegee Beefsteak and simply continuously grown in Tennessee, or in Arkansas as in the case of Indian Stripe, while its growers just didn't give a squat what name was attached to the seeds grandpa bought?

Speaking to just one comment made in an above post, Craig LeHoullier got the variety now known as Cherokee Purple from J D. Green of TN and it had no name. John had told Craig that the woman he got it from said that it had been grown by the Cherokee. Craig just used the info he was given and at firat called it Cherokee Brick Red, which unfortunately is still listed in the SSE YEarbook, and then changed the name to Cherokee Purple.

****

A good friend noted that I'd made an error in the above paragraph.

It was Cherokee Chocolate that Craig first named Cherokee Brick Red, not Cherokee Purple.

I meant to transfer some of that info from there to here but see below.

I haven't been able to use my computer today b'c a power line fell and sparked a brush fire which burned yet more wires and so the power was out all after noon until about 30 min ago. Not on my property but up the road apiece as is said around here.

Carolyn

Check it out. Fegee Beefsteak, offered by Livinston in 1878, alleged to be parent of so-called "True Black Brandywine" and alleged to have been a "maroon" beefsteak not dissimilar otherwise to Crimson Cushion, aka Ponderosa Red, aka Beefsteak.

Could Cherokee Purple have been derived from commerically sourced Fegee Beefsteak and simply continuously grown in Tennessee, or in Arkansas as in the case of Indian Stripe, while its growers just didn't give a squat what name was attached to the seeds granpa bought.

****

Yes Bill, Fegee in all of it's alternative spellings was the main focus of those who posted in that thread I referred to and there plenty of sources and links cited.

But there seems to be some argumment about what color it really was, maroon, dark pink, whatever.

I'm looking at Andy's book right now b'c I forgot to look at your link and don't want to lose this post, and all that's reported is when Fegee was brought back from the South Pacific, which could be anywhere, as I see it, and was brought back in 1841.

And no color was indicated.

And Andy made a point of saying that this early Fegee was dispersed in the US and died out, and that the later variety also known as Fegee was from Italy.

And there sure is a lot of confusion between the two Fegees as I see it.

If the one that came here in 1841 was dark colored and was dispersed then yes, I was going to make the same point you did that the Cherokee and anyone else might have had access to the dark colored Fegee early on since I don't know when it died out and I could em Andy and ask if he knows, but if he did I think he would have given a rough date.

And since WWW says that Brandywine X Fegee gives a black tomato and Andy says Fegee died out it's rather difficult to understand how the dark colored Fegee could have been used in the 1920's to result it what's called True Black Brandywine unless it died out after maybe the 1930's.

There are lots of links I never read in that other thread so when I get the time I'll take another look and see what I can find that might be of interest.

I've known Andy Smith for many years and, well, I'm betting on him and his info unless something else turns up.

Carolyn

Define "died out" LOL!

Fell completely off the face of the Earth?

Or just fell into obscurity and was only grown by a few individuals in such remote locations that it was only seen again when "civilization" discovered "heirlooms?"

I wrote another long reply and my son deleted it when I walked away to answer phone.

Summary:
Philippine #2 was probably investigated by Peto for resistance

the Nagcarlang that is in TGRC has a different donor source (Miguel Holle from the International Potato Center in Peru) vs the USDA (Bureau of Plant Industry from Manila). They appear to be different:

TGRC

USDA description
Plant erect, stiff, to 49 inches high and 11 inches wide; fruit 1.6 by 2.5 inches, distorted shapes, purple, seven loculed, late maturing. A wild, cold-resistant type with protruding pistils which set fruit under rainy conditions.

There are many "gf" lines in the TGRC.

Those look like crossed seed, here's Nagcarlang:

{{gwi:1369780}}

Hope this helps!

A few things about the Barry/Pandy report bug me. Why are the gf designations for "Ailse Craig" and "Philippines no 2" not included in the summary?
How do we know that the specimens used in the genotyping were from reputable sources and not just fruit that the grower alleged to be of that variety?

I would call these a purple tomato, fitting the USDA description...