I'd personally opt for the sunny location in a container if I had to choose. But I would use 15 gallon container rather than 5 gallon especially for indeterminate varieties. You want to leave enough room in the container for roots and water. A bigger pot doesn't dry out as fast after watering and also doesn't heat up as fast in hot weather (and get cold as fast in cold weather).

Some grow in 5 gallon pots but they are not ideal and mostly should only be used with smaller dwarf and "determinate" varieties (like "Patio").

One note, which you may know already but figure I'd mention anyway: container gardening is different than in ground gardening so you'd have to a few things differently to provide conditions for better yield-- things like using a light-weight potting mix rather than actual soil, water more frequently than you'd have do with in ground plants, use a water soluble fertilizer to supply nutrients, etc.

The container forum here has a lot of discussions about this and there is also plenty written about container growing of tomatoes elsewhere on the web, particularly by various state university extension services.

But if you have both options available, why not do both and compare results for yourself?

I did something like this last year, and my container plants (in 15 gallon containers) in sunny spots did better than the in ground ones in less sunny spots. But mine wasn't a scientific study.

This post was edited by DHLCAL on Sun, May 18, 14 at 14:30

In ground vs. only a 5 gallon container? I'd choose in ground - no contest. Even less sun would still beat a 5 gallon container IMO.

The plant might get leggy but the over-all health and production will be much better than in the bucket.

But with a container at least 2x larger then I'd vote for the sunny spot and 3x bigger even better.

Dave

I agree with DHLCAL overwhelmingly [ on his method for pots. I kind of agree with Dave too - so maybe in practice I'd split the risk and so some of each ].

But, I do like to talk about exceptions and refinements. Commercial greenhouse tomato growers could use 15 gallon containers, if they wanted to. They don't though, they go smaller: "The recommended volume of aggregate medium is 1/2 cubic foot per plant. With pine bark, this is easily achieved by using 2 cubic-foot bags and transplanting three or four plants per bag. You can buy these pine-bark filled, perforated, polyethylene bags from Mississippi suppliers (see list at end of this publication). Alternatively, two plants can be grown in a 7 1/2-gallon bag or bucket, or you can grow one plant in a 3- or 4-gallon container (1 cubic foot equals 7 1/2 gallons).

Now I certainly wouldn't suggest that you run out and get a drip system for a few plants, but it is something to consider if anyone is looking for say 10-30 plants. A drip system may reduce total costs(!), because they are inexpensive (mine with timer was $33, I've since spent another $4 on parts for next year), and GREATLY reduce soil needs.

So after all that blather, sure, for less than 10 plants, I too recommend large containers and easy watering ;-)

[I have a drip system because I know that I am a bad waterer.]

This post was edited by johns.coastal.patio on Sun, May 18, 14 at 14:28

Five (5) hours of sun for tomato plant, though not plenty but it is enough. My own garden area gets 4 to 5 hours of direct sun. I would have liked 6 to 7 hrs. max. 6 hours is lower border of FULL SUN.Remember that direct sun is not the only source of light that plants get and use.Indirect and defused light is also taken and used. Literally no plant can grow in total darkness but many many grow where they get ZERO direct sun.

Plants (Tomatoes in this case) Need a certain amount of LIGHT for their photosynthesis beyond that the extra light is not needed and is not used, especially hot direct sun during long summer days does more harm than good. In cold climates extra sun can be beneficial for its heating effect.

In the opinions of some, tomato plant is a partial shade/sun plant. So My Opinion is : 4 to 5 hours sun , in ground location is far better than in a pot with more sun. .

I wouldn't ever consider a tomato plant a shade plant or even a partial shade plant for any reason. Neither would most growers worldwide.

And the sun serves for more than photosynthesis so to claim more light is not needed and not used is inaccurate. Tomatoes prefer a minimum of 6 hours of full sun exposure for average growth and need 8 hours for ideal growth. They can also easily benefit from the 10-12-14 hours many of us have available to them.

Can they be grown with less? Yes. But the end result will be less than optimal. If the growth and production you get with 4-5 hours of sun is acceptable to you, that's great, but that doesn't mean it is optimal and it doesn't mean that it is enough for anyone, much less everyone, else. So please take care when stating such broad generalizations when they are based only on what happens in your own yard..

Dave

So please take care when stating such broad generalizations when they are based only on what happens in your own yard..

Dave
%%%%%%%%%%%%
Ok , lets count . You have made several generalizations of your own: Like:

" ----- 8 hours for ideal growth ......"
----- They can also easily benefit from the 10-12-14 hour -------

----And the sun serves for more than photosynthesis so to claim more light is not needed and not used is inaccurate .....

This is a generalization, without saying HOW.
I have already mentioned that it can be also a heat source. What else does DIRECT SUN do? Please list !

AND I mentioned :
""In the opinions of some, tomato plant is a partial shade/sun plant. "

Then think about why some shade their tomato plants if 12hours (direct Sun) is beneficial. Obviously excess sun and heat is harmful

Then I also mentioned :
"direct sun is not the only source of light that plants get and use.Indirect and defused light is also taken and used.."

That is VERY important to consider. We have an average 14 hours daylight here. And my garden get 5 hours of DIRECT SUN but during the remaining 9 hours plants also get light and work with their photosynthesis. THAT MEANS shade DOES NOT MEAN NO LIGHT.

Check the following discussions on cloudy day, indirect sun, grow light, tomato photosynthesis ...

Here is a link that might be useful: Lumenosity

I am here in Southern California-- San Gabriel Valley-- some ways from the coast but not totally inland. It's Sunset Zone 21 here, I believe. We get nearly no rain and not even many cloudy days out here. So, without shades from trees or buildings, etc., we likely get as much sunlight as anyone else in the country during tomato season.

In my yard, I have tomatoes growing at locations with various degrees of shade during the day-- from one raise bed with only 4 hours of sunlight and fairly "solid" shade from houses and a wooden fence, to another bed and containers with around 6 or 7 hours of direct sun and dappled shade from trees at various point, to some containers with probably 10-11 hours of full sun and some limited dappled shade.

So far, my observation has been that the plants seems to love all the sunlight that they can get. Those in the shadiest spot are fairly skinny and grew slowly compared to others. Those with moderate shade are doing fine and setting fruit, but still kind if leggy and a little light in color. Those with the most sunlight are growing thick and bushy (maybe too vegetative? But they are flowering setting fruit). I'll let you know by the end of the season how it all turn out,but this is fairly consistent with my results from last year (though I didn't plant at the super sunny spot back then).

The only drawback that I saw was that a few of the new leafs got fried during our recent dry hear wave+Santa Ana winds combo. But that was more of a water/temperature issue with the containers than it is a sunlight issue (the potting mixed got dry fast). Now that the temperature is back down to the 80s and not near 100, I don't notice any issues with the plants not being able to handle the extra sunlight.

Everything I've read, including publications by various state university extension services, have said that Tomatoes need full sun, 6+ hours direct, more is better. Haven't come across any that says Tomatoes prefer partial shade. Is there any article out there from academic or commercial sources that say so?

This post was edited by DHLCAL on Sun, May 18, 14 at 21:52

No I don't need to because it is common knowledge.

One need only review any number of the hundreds of research publications, commercial production documents, how-to grow tomatoes articles, scientific studies, comparative analysis reports, even anecdotal reports, to understand how tomatoes grow. To understand the role of photosynthesis, the effects of low sun exposure on ripening rates, on brix, on fruit nutrition values, on pest and disease resistance, and production.

You keep making claims that you have reinvented the wheel and discovered that it is really square while you ignore the fact that the wheel has long been around, is round and has rolled along for centuries.

Then think about why some shade their tomato plants if 12 hours (direct Sun) is beneficial. Obviously excess sun and heat is harmful

No because they are shading their plants to prevent sun scald of the fruit - especially if they pruned heavily - and to reduce the ambient air temps around the blooms in the hopes of fruit set. It is not done to block the sun from the plants.

Have you ever seen a commercial tomato growing operation? Acres and acres of wide open sun 14 hours a day, no shade, Shoot forget commercial production just check out hundreds of home garden photos in over 1/2 the country. 12-14 hours of full sun and no shade.

You keep pointing out that what you have to work with in the PNW is so unusual, so different, so difficult, and yet you insist on drawing conclusions from your experience there and stating it as gospel facts for all to use even when it flies in the face of common knowledge and practice.

Your conclusions, when valid, and experience can be quite beneficial to others who garden in the PNW, even for those in the other parts of the country in the low heat zones. But that does not make it fact or even applicable to the majority of of the rest of us.

Dave

It is kind of complicated. Few plants have neat hours of full sun.

These were "5 hour plants" when they were small, and maybe each leaf still sees 5 hours of sun, but now the bottom gets sun earlier and the top gets it later. Seems to work.

Never denied that it would "work" John, just that it would work better with more sun.

One good indicator of the effects of more sun on plants is the reduced internode length. Full 8 hour plants have much shorter internodes in most cases. Thus the plant is shorter, stockier, with thicker and stronger stems. Shorter, stockier stems develop stronger, more well-developed circulatory systems for both water and nutrient distribution.

As I said, we all work with what we have available to us but the fact that we can make less-than-ideal "work" to a degree doesn't mean it would work for all, that it couldn't be better, or that it proves that what is the norm, the ideal standard is wrong as some here claim.

For example, California produces 90% of the US tomato production but 90% of that production is only in the San Joaquin and Sacramento Valley climate (Sunset zone 14). I'm sure you know how very different the climate and sun exposure is there. :)

Dave

Obviously if I had 8 hours I would use it. Without it though ... 3" fruit and it's only May.

Looking great John, but seeing as how this is for comparison and informative use I will be completely honest and say: the legginess of the plants coincided with the largely spaced inter-nodes is indicative of their search for more light =) .. Although as we can see, tomato's are tough and will make the best of what they're given.

IME and in accordance to common knowledge - with tomato's no light is too much light, high heat is the only issue.. When we get into southern zones and temps are at a daily constant of 90-100+ F it's another story.. Sun Scald and blossom drop become an issue..

A very general rule of thumb that can be helpful also relates to the specific variety being grown: For example, a cherry demands less light than a beefsteak per say.. The larger the fruit, the more light the plant will desire.. That's the only partial basis where I can see someone trying to say that tomato's aren't 100% sun worshipers...
It makes sense, a plant producing larger fruit has greater requirements for light and food. Layman's terms - fat people generally eat more than skinny people ;) haha

My answer would be this: Try both as previously recommended for comparative purposes, but I would opt for more sun in containers.. Just be sure to stick with a properly sized container 10 gal+ and go with a lighter color as well.. Black containers are infamous for absorbing heat and can cook the root zone on a very hot-dry day.

-Mike

Looking great John, but seeing as how this is for comparison and informative use I will be completely honest and say: the legginess of the plants coincided with the largely spaced inter-nodes is indicative of their search for more light =) .. Although as we can see, tomato's are tough and will make the best of what they're given.

I can accept that. I think of my success in terms of the strikes against me: coastal zone, 5+ hours of sun, containers (and shocker, a partially soil and sand mix).

A local garden presentation said that because of our zone we needed 10-12 hours sun. Well, apparently you can do ok, even as those tomatoes reach to the sun.

I guess I knew ahead, and only planted small and early varieties, though, I'm not sure the small German variety is small. With only 2 fruit on a 5 foot bush it seems ready to produce some kind of giant.

And the other thing I've really learned, maybe the biggest lesson of my experience, is that drip irrigation makes up for a lot. My friend's tomatoes, in the ground, inland, in full sun, are only 3-4 feet tall and curling, because they haven't managed to keep them watered in the hot winds.

This post was edited by johns.coastal.patio on Mon, May 19, 14 at 19:14

drip irrigation makes up for a lot.

Man, I sure will agree with that statement! Even a very basic drip system can greatly reduce BER in container plants for one thing. Not to mention less time spent watering and less water wasted.

What variety is the big green in the last pic? Envy you as plants are just going into the ground here this year.

Dave

That is supposedly a Riesentraube, purchased at the Tomatomania traveling show.

I guess sometimes when you buy plants you get "tomato roulette."

In this case I'm kind of glad, because the Super Sweet 100 seems to be covering the cherry side, and the Early Girl is covering the "conventional."

(White balance is off, the wall behind is actually green, and the tomato is not really white at all.)

John,

Wonderfully humble outlook! We're all limited by our environment so it seems! Its too cold for me to get in before May 10th(ish), so I'm lucky if I have fruit by late June/early July! In the wintertime I grow hydroponically indoors and there's nothing like having COMPLETE control of your environment.

I've always wondered - what's the ideal internode length? I know my plants are way too leggy this year, I started too many for the lights I have (and I bought more lights this year but they're round CFLs not tubes so I don't have even coverage).

John, Your plants are looking great.
Here again, what you have demonstrated confirms what I have been talking about and you have proven the so-called expert (saying that you need 10 t0 12 hours of sun) WRONG.

Direct sun is not the ONLY source of light for plants' photosynthesis. Even in an overcast day, the amount of light intensity is close to artificial light under which we grow seedlings. Plants need certain limited amount of COMBINED light (in lumens), just as they need limited amount of nutrients and water. Beyond that extra light can be a heat source in cool days/climate and detrimental where the temperature are high.

Seysonn,

Your arrogance is unfortunate.. You naively ignored the posts describing the observable effects from a lack of light - and John's humble response as well.. It seems like pride has blinded your search for true and useful information..? This is not self serving in any way my friend. Lets man up and acknowledge the truth as it will help the entire community to foster a better understanding of plants in general. And yes, John's plants DO look excellent, but all that was noted was the large internode spacing - particularly on the left side. To repeat: they are evident of the plant's search for more light.

Apparently you have a personal vendetta against Dave? Sounds like an issue that should be left on the play ground, to be honest - I'm not trying to be facetious, but it's fruitless to say the least (no pun intended lol).

Speaking in reference to lumens and lumens alone (not considering heat's contribution to sun scald, blossom drop, bleaching etc), tomatoes will soak up as much as they're given, so long as they have an adequate food source..

Ajsmama: It's hard to come up with a definitive standard when talking about internode spacing. It would vary greatly strain to strain..You'd have to really get to know your strain well in order to observe the shortest possible spacing with that particular specimen. For example: a determinate variety will have tighter spacing than an indeterminate. Then you could also look at "indeterminate short internode" varieties which are more of a middle of the road type. Perhaps Dave could give you a better answer, but IMO the shorter the spacing the better as it would reflect greater yields, stronger and more stable plants etc.. =)

This post was edited by michael723 on Thu, May 22, 14 at 13:03

Here again, what you have demonstrated confirms what I have been talking about and you have proven the so-called expert (saying that you need 10 t0 12 hours of sun) WRONG

No one ever said that. And except for you, everyone else understood what was actually said.

Shelia - as michael explained very well there is a variance in internode length from variety to variety and type to type. There are "averages" determined by studies done on many of the common varieties but the usual way of evaluating it is to measure the difference between the internodes on the plant itself as it grows.

With an indeterminate variety when it is provided with ideal growing conditions and ample light they will each remain approx. the same length, have the same spacing, as the plant grows. With insufficient light each internode markedly lengthen as the stem grows.

Now I think we have inundated the poor OP, who asked a simple question, with enough emails since this thread was ripped way off topic. I'm done.

Dave

Posted by michael723 6 (My Page) on
Thu, May 22, 14 at 12:48

Seysonn,

Your arrogance is unfortunate.. You naively ignored the posts describing the observable effects from a lack of light
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

No sir, I am neither arrogant nor naive but you have definitely demonstrated to be rude, by attacking my character, rather than trying to reject my view.
When some one lacks logic, interjects fallacies. By calling me arrogant and naive you have clearly shown that.

Thank you for the complements.

The weird thing about the "long" internode length is that, with the tall cages, the tomatoes "strut" themselves in there pretty tight. The cages go all the way to the bottom of the pots (buried to the first ring) and the combination is very stable.

Whether climate and tight space a big hit or not, I suppose the ultimate measure will be fruit per square foot of space (or classic ROI). I suspect I'll do better than expected on that, but certainly far far less than an in-the-ground plant with long days.

Been working on my trellis ...

This post was edited by johns.coastal.patio on Thu, May 22, 14 at 15:12

Now I think we have inundated the poor OP, who asked a simple question, with enough emails since this thread was ripped way off topic. I'm done.

Dave
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Emails? for what ?
The discussion has been on the subject: i.e. Sun Requirement. I have always believed that something good comes out of clashing views. Had we to agree on everything, FORUM would be useless and we could not gain anything from it. So I stand here with open mind not minding to be proven wrong.
Another issue is that we talk, views and opinions expressed here not to make a personal attack on someone's character.

nough is said.

Seysonn,

An attack on your character is an overstatement because I don't know the first thing about you. I simply made an observation from what you gave me to work with. But there is no sense in going around in circles, so I'm sorry if you took it that way. It is just frustrating when information is ignored and an "agenda" of sorts is pushed on its way to further confuse those that are looking for information - not personality clashes.

I have neither the time nor desire to argue with you.
I've seen you causing trouble in many threads - it's frustrating and completely useless.. I will not respond to you directly from here on out - I see nothing of true worth being gained from such exchanges.. Be well

My apologies to the OP

OP here. I have been loving the spirited discussion and have been following closely and with interest. These are my first tomato plants and there is so much to learn. I am amazed by the wealth of knowledge of the Gardenweb posters. Hope no one felt attacked during the debate, but as a newbie, it was so interesting to read, so thank you all for it.

I do have my black cherries in the ground and in containers, so we shall see who wins! Right now they are both so tiny that I would be embarrassed to show a picture.

I hope you haven't been getting tons of emails from this thread! It seems that GW always has that notice at the bottom whether the emails are sent are not.

Good luck with your plants

Shiela - the statement A copy of further followups will be emailed to this poster,

only appears when the OP has checked the box when they posted. If they don't check the box then that notice does not appear.

sandpapertongue - good luck with your plants and thanks for putting up with us. :)

Dave

Michael 723

I never quoted you , neither was I responing to you.
Now ypu got nerves all of a sudden come out and call someone, ARROGANT and NAIVE, because of expressing his views on the subject. Dave is capable of defending his position. He is and experienced knowledgeable gardener and an eloquent writer and speaker. I have learned a lot from him over the years but then we disagree on occasions. I have never said anything personal about him.

Case closed.

Sandpapertongue (lol loving the name),

I too have learned a lot from "debates" on gardening forums in the past, and still do! Don't be ashamed of your plants, humble beginnings my friend - humble beginnings. Tomatoes are a very forgiving crop and an excellent way to get into the hobby. Enjoy!

Please keep us posted, I can't wait to see your results!

This post was edited by michael723 on Fri, May 23, 14 at 13:20