weather is the issue. plants not setting well, then dropping blossoms, etc. I'm in SW Ct. I have tomatoes on all my plants but my derterminates are setting best. pruning my indeterminates i'm sure isn't helping them any this year. I set them out on 5/17. Just hit them with fertilizer again. after being yellow for a month, they are just starting to improve.

The determinates aren't dropping blossoms, they just haven't gotten buds at all. And wondering with something advertised as 49 DTM, just when (how soon after transplant) you're supposed to see a flower?

Seems like you should have not only seen flowers, but also set fruit by now after being in the garden for a month, especially on an early variety like that. My only guess is that they must be stressing from so much rain or something. But even then a plant will force a flower or two. A photo might help if possible.

Ajs - I hope this helps a little. I too am growing 2 "4th of July Hybrids". I started germination on March 15th and planted them out May 16th.

Here are what mine did in the Philadelphia area:

The first flowers started to appear a week after planting and 1 tomatoe popped 1st, then the rest followed a week or 2 later. 1 tomatoe is starting to blush and about 12-15 others are approaching the typical size. The top of the plant are all starting to drop tiny green marbles. 1 plant is in ground with just a little manure with the dirt. And the other in a 20 Gallon with 5-1-1 mix. The one in the container looks to be about 2 weeks ahead for production but the one in ground seems to be gaining and popping alot with the biggest about golfball size. So maybe it could be weather or possibly a seed issue where you got them from? I also think that your area has been getting the same weather?

I got my seeds from Amazon and it came in a ziplock with a white label stating it was Seeds Direct. I was hesitant at first. Right now the 49 days will be July 6th from when I planted.

I hope this helps.

- Mr Beno

Sorry for edit: It was actuly seeds direct not generic seeds.

This post was edited by thebutcher on Mon, Jul 1, 13 at 13:47

Nothing to do but wait and see. These were Burpee seeds and they are notorious for mislabeling, they might not even be determinates. These weren't as stressed as the ones that stayed in the pots longer and then got planted in a sunnier, sandier location (which you'd think would drain better) and were looking purple. At least I have the Cosmonaut Volkovs for the "early" tomatoes. Replaced about half of my Grandma Mary's so some will be later than others, but both those varieties are getting flowers, as are some Gardner's Delight cherries, a few Brandywines and Cherokee Purples, and I think I saw some on Black Krim the other day.

Raining again - maybe I can get out there and check the indeterminates again Wed. Nothing really to take a picture of with the so-called determinates - look like healthy 1 ft tall RL plants, just no sign of flower buds.

I hear you with the rain, another few inches to ad after this new storm. Also I noticed you mentioned Black Krim. I planted mine in ground along with the 4th and I had to replace it a week after, it just got yellow and very sick. The Black Krim also was lower on a slight slope where the July 4th plant was almost at the top so most of the water went into the Krim most likley. We had about 6-8 inches of rain right before planted

But the second Black Krim looked sick and yellow with more rain but not as much and I almost gave up on it but it really rebounded about 3-4 weeks ago with greener leaves and really starting to take off. It only had a few flowers but there was a 2 pops of green marbles last week. But now with this rain again I am nervous. I also just planted 2 Kellogg Beafstakes in containers last week and praying.

I am just mentioning this to help out with my conditions.

This post was edited by thebutcher on Mon, Jul 1, 13 at 14:20

My BK stayed very small but looked pretty healthy through it all. The really purpling ones that I had to replace were SuperSweet 100, Rose de Berne, some Grandma Mary's. Gardener's Delight were small when I put them out but I didn't hold back any replacements, hope they make it, have Cheeseman's and Chadwick's cherries too so with 4 varieties and about 2 dozen cherries hopefully I'll have enough cherries. Rutgers did OK, no blossoms yet but didn't replace any, didn't have to replace Cosmonaut, CP, or BW either. Mark Twain looked sad and purple only 4 days after planting (the latest to go out on 6/17) but was looking better as of a few days ago. We'll see later this week.

I just went through my Photo log files, I take about 30+ every day to every other day depending on weather and time after work.

These photos show the same cluster from May 31st when it the first Popped that I noticed and up to June 28th, I hope this helps to show the development on the "4th of July" I also mentioned in other posts that I was concerened about the shape inititialy but I think it balanced out.

The tomato called 4th of July and sold by Burpee is a hybrid IN-determinate with a DTM of 49 days.

Tomato called Independence Day is a heirloom/OP determinate with DTM of 55 days.

Dave

Not according to the package I bought.

Back of package reading "determinate" on the flap. Not sure if this is case of Burpee mislabeling the OP as a hybrid (but still determinate) and wrong DTM (not that 6 days matters), or using wrong name and growth habit for the 49 DTM hybrid. I'll just have to see if/when it produces, if it does so until frost.

I think I will drive to Burbee tomorrow and ask them. lol But ironically Burpee is 10-15 minutes from my home.

Before I purchased my other seeds in search of the "4th of July" I wanted to drive there and pick it up with other garden supplies and check it out, but I was told that there garden center is closed to the public this year for renovations.

I got really into seed starting this year as well as tomatoes planting last year (I am still very new) it is a shame I never knew that they were so close. I also learned that Cross Country Nursery is 20 minutes away in the other direction. I guess next year I will have fun shopping at both. :)

It's funny that they don't even list this variety on their website (they do have 4th of July). But I bought the seeds at a "lot" store so maybe that explains the (ahem) irregular packaging?

I ordered their 2013 catalog and will update with a few photos (I will just hit "edit" for this post) of what was sent around March via mail. It will probably be in a few hours after I feed the Fam and take some more detailed snaps of the "4th" that I got from Seeds Direct via Amazon.

Edit to ad Photo:
Yes the front cover and back cover ripped off because I read it so much and showed some friends. But the main point of showing the 2 was the year. So I am puzzled as well now with the determinate and such and why I had my seeds from seed direct. It did not to say if it was determinate or interdeterminate. THe lable just said "Fourth of July Hybrid Tomato Seeds". and right below says Seeds Direct.

This post was edited by thebutcher on Mon, Jul 1, 13 at 19:41

ajsmama... I bought that exact same package of Burpee
Independence Day at a box store in Minnesota. Obviously it got wide spread distribution. The plants are blooming well and setting their 1st tomatoes. The 4 varieties of in-determinates that are planted with them, were started indoors 10 days sooner than they were. All went into the ground about June 1st. Even with the later seeding start, the independence Day plants are much taller and more robust than the other plants.

Obviously I didn't expect ripe tomatoes on the 4th in zone 3/4. With the cooler than normal start, I'll be happy if they can hit either the 49 or 55 days and be ripe by end of July.

Mr. Beno - thanks, that's the same tomato that Dave was talking about, it's on their website.

northernmn - interesting that you set out 1 day earlier than I did (it was 88 degrees here that day so I waited) and have fruit set. I assume we've been having the same rainy weather (and perhaps you have had cooler temps) since my brother in WI says we are getting his weather a couple days later. Let's keep each other updated - seems like we truly have a "Burpee exclusive". I'd be interested to hear if anyone else bought these seeds and where, how they do. They are looking good, though not as tall as the Best Boy, just neither of those 2 varieties (10 plants each) have flower buds. Maybe not enough sun? Though the Latah that's flowering has a bit more morning shade than these do (woods to the north and east, Latah is stuck in with the climbing cukes to the east of tomatoes and north of the kale). I've grown tomatoes and peppers in this location in the past (not last year, but 2011 that wet year the only tomatoes that survived were in this location) and also have strawberries just in front (to the south) of the Latah, they did great this year. Still get about 9 hrs of sun per day (when we see the sun), though not the 14 hours the main tomato patch 1000ft to the south in a more open area gets.

I started Fourth of July from seeds, in my window, on about Feb 15th and planted them out, on the south side of a dark PVC fence, in walls of water, in about mid April. I removed the walls of water on about May 5th or 10th. I have already eaten ripe tomatoes from the 4th of July plant and it has quite a few more coming along. Plant is healthy, only about 2 1/2 feet high but quite bushy.

DTM (Days to Maturity) is NEVER a real number. Its only value to me is to try to get some idea of how a particular variety MIGHT compare to another variety. In other words, if it says 55 days to maturity (and this is AFTER transplanting, NOT days from seed), then I generally assume it will take a MINIMUM of 10 to 15 days longer, but I assume this extra time is applicable to ALL of the tomato varieties.

I'm not claiming that someone, somewhere couldn't say, "Yep, I put the plant in the ground and had tomatoes 55 days later." I'm sure this happens, SOMETIMES. But it depends on how large the plant was when you put it into the ground (putting a 2 foot plant into the ground hardly seems fair), and it doesn't indicate whether they were already flowering at the nursery and might not have already set some fruit. Nor does it take into account the fact that my Springs (Zone 6B) are cold, and often wet, and sometimes not very sunny. If I had put the tomato into the ground in Central California with consistent daytime temps of 80 degrees and night time temps of 65, I would undoubtedly get different results.

I know DTM is not hard and fast, but back to my original question - for a short DTM variety, how long from flower to ripe fruit (Big Beef timeline doesn't apply), or how soon after transplanting (let's say the standard 6-8 week old seedling) should you expect to see flower buds? Still seems that after 1 month in the ground as of today I should see buds, since I'm assuming it will take at least 3 weeks from bud to first fruit.

Just checked since it's not raining yet today, the 2nd Latah has buds, the 1st Latah has flowers opening but no fruit set (may not in this rain), but the Burpee tomatoes (Independence Day and Best Boy, according to packets) don't show any buds forming yet though they are knee-high and have lots of suckers, nice medium-green color to the leaves. Of course it's been wet (though not cold) the entire month of June, but as I said these plants were not stressed like the indeterminates I put in a different spot later in June (6/8-6/17, in between storms).

For a small tomato like 4th of July, I would expect about 35 days from flower to fruit, under optimal conditions. However, it might ripen faster, because it IS an early variety, or slower if the weather isn't right.

Just have to wait for some flowers then. Cosmonaut Volkov is showing some buds, 1 Black Krim and a couple Cherokee Purple have flowers, a few Grandma Mary's, 2 Gardener's Delight, *maybe* a few buds on some Cheeseman's and Chadwick's, 1 Rose de Berne, the small Brandywine I left a flower on seems to have aborted the whole truss(?) but I have a flower open on a larger BW I just put in that had been in a 1 gal pot. Seems like my "early" determinates may be the latest tomatoes (except for Mark Twain I just transplanted 6/17, and the Supersweet 100s don't seem to be doing anything).

Bet the cherries (except SS100?) produce earlier than Independence Day!

as i said earlier, i really don't think the weather is helping us.
I would even say too much nitrogen but if the plants aren't really growing at all, i don't think that's it.
my 4th of july tomato plants are small and only have 3-4 fruit clusters between 2 plants.

Definitely more sun would help. Not too much N, while the plants look good, they're not extremely lush and dark green. I'm surprised they don't seem to need fertilizer, as my others did (or actually couldn't take up the P in the soil b/c roots so waterlogged, though thank goodness not rotted so once we dried out a bit those started greening up).

Gardening in the PNW, Seattle, WA area.

My possible EARLIEST ripe fruit should come from EARLY GIRL. It came with couple of small fruits when I planted around mid May( = 45 days ago). It has fruits ,some the size of a plum and many more , about 20 fruits that I can identify. But we have had a lot of cool and rainy days. No help there. Just recently started feeling like summer. Anyway, I was hoping to get a ripe fruit in time for the 4th celebration but it will not happen. The plant is HUGE very healthy, keeps blooming , growing. It has about 6 thick branches near 5 foot tall. Hey, I have done my share. So much for the Early Girli..hahaha

2nd one in row had tiny flower buds on it Wed (7/3), noticing some on other plants including a few of the Best Boy today but you really have to look hard. The Latah has open blossoms, 2nd Latah blossoms about ready to open, Black Krim, Grandma Marys CP flowering now (though 1 CP looked like flower aborted due to heat?), some Cheesman's also, SS100 starting to get flower buds and CV plants are huge though I didn't notice blossoms when I watered just now. Lots of new growth the past few days since rain stopped and temps soared (only 1/2" rain on Monday so I watered today, not expecting more rain til Monday and that's "scattered" T-storms so could be more than a week w/o rain - maybe broke the pattern?)

I'll update when blossoms open and again at fruit set. The race is on to see what the actual earliest tomato will be for me - I'm thinking Gardener's Delight cherry?

My Independence Day update, (same plant seeds as ajsmama has growing): I use the 5 ft tall concrete mesh to make my cages and the wires are spaced every 6". The Independence Day are now one ring short of the top so they are 4.5 ft tall. The package says determinant, but they are sure growing taller and faster than my 4 varieties of in-determinants. I haven't pinched any suckers this year on any of my plants so they are extremely densely foliated inside of the cage.

There are now lots of marble sized tomatoes and a few are nearing golf ball size. Since the Independence Day doesn't get a lot larger than golf balls, I expect sizing to stop, and coloring to start in just over one week, with my biggest ones.

The are also some golf ball sized fruit on the Brandywines as well. the plants are just shorter.

My rational for letting all of the higher suckers stay on the plant, was to try to hold down the height of the plants. Previous years, with suckers taken off, they had grown way past the top of the 5 ft cages and it required top pruning (in determinants ). Now the plants seem too dense within the cage and I'm fearing that I might get a blight problem from lack of air circulation within the cage. Next year I'm going to experiment with larger diameter cages, or back to removing more suckers.

ajsmama: Even though I'm in northern MN, our last 2 weeks have been great tomato growing weather. 80% to 90% sunshine with highs in the lower 80s and nights around the mid 60s. Growth has been well over an 1.5" a day lately on the taller plants. That's with most of the suckers still on the plant. I also have rolled black plastic around all of the plants to heat the soil. This may have to be removed in August to prevent overheating.

This week 1/2" rain on Monday, last week had a little over 1" in 3 storms (1/3 - 1/2" each, plus a sprinkle on the other days - very overcast and humid). Temps last week usual high 70's to low 80's, nights in mid 60s-low 70's but since Wed it's been high 80's or 90, low about 74 at night.

Looking for it to get back to normal temps beginning of next week, can't tell yet whether we'll have normal inch or so of rain per week or if it will be repeat of June (over 3" per week) or dry like last year (but no drought, after the last week of May thru 3rd week of June I don't have fear of running the well dry, rivers are still high here, festival canceled for this weekend, some people still aren't heeding warnings after a number of drownings).

I don't know how long it will take to get golf-ball sized fruit, the flower buds on these hybrids are still practically microscopic.

I'm seriously starting to question if the Burpee's Independence Day (49 day) is truly a determinate plant as stated on the package. Of the 5 plants that I have in the ground, 4 have just gone past the 5 ft tall mark and show no signs of slowing down. They average about 30 blossoms, and maybe 15 tomatoes per plant varying in size up to golf ball.

All of my indeterminates are only at 4 ft or even shorter. Not quite the same amount of blossoms and fruit set, but still a good quantity for large tomato varieties though.

Possibly semi-determinate? I only say this because that was on my seed package from Rutgers U. with the Ramapo F-1 hybrid.

I mention this because I am growing both and side by side in identicle containers and soil-less 5-1-1 mix. I am also growing them in ground, I will snap a photo later of both inground ones and their stages.

I just got back from vacation. And I know I need to add some reinforcement stakes. But both plants seem to be around the same height and almost equal amount of tomatoes on each 15-20+ with many new ones starting to pop but the 4th tomatoes are blushing and just about ready and it would be day "51" from a "49" day DTM from when I planted on March 16th. (I will send a new photo soon of my 4th, this current photo was taken yesterday).

I guess the question is, could the "Independance day be a Semi-Determinate"? In Burpee's catalog the 4th was called inderterminate, however I got my seeds labeled as "the 4th of July Hybrid" from a different seed company.

I'm seriously starting to question if the Burpee's Independence Day (49 day) is truly a determinate plant as stated on the package.

As I said above:
4th of July (sold by Burpee on their website and in their catalog and by several other vendors) is a hybrid IN-determinate with a DTM of 49 days.

Independence Day is a heirloom/OP determinate with DTM of 55 days.

Who knows what was in those Burpee packets bought off the shelf - could be anything (for which Burpee is notorious).

So if the plant you have is not performing to the specs of the variety it is supposed to be then while growing conditions can have some effect, the odds are you have mis-labeld seeds.

Dave

Not to take it off topic but these 3 photos show the "Ramapo (1st pant to the right) and the 4th of July (2nd plant on the right) hybrids" after the Ramapo fell over. I thought it would be good to show it to view the right side of the plant. The last photo is the side view of the one I posted right before and was taken yesterday July 6th.

I had to do an emergency patch so I brought out last years stakes and cages to support. (Don't ask me about the duct tape lol) But these photos show both varieties in the same conditions and the part of their production on 51 days after plantation. By the way I took the first "4th of Juy off the stem because it blushed".

Edit on: 21 to 51 days after planted.

This post was edited by thebutcher on Sun, Jul 7, 13 at 18:58

I've got fruit set on the Gardener's Delight, 1 Latah, a Black Krim and a Cherokee Purple so Independence Day won't be the first ripe tomato out of the garden this year (Cosmonaut Volkov has open flowers but no fruit yet).

Funny since the GD and Krims were set out a week after the supposedly early hybrids, the Krims had been potted up to 3.5" pot as were the hybrids but the GD were straight out of the 6-pack I had put them in after pricking them out of the starter cells, so they were leggy and not a large root system. Maybe that one set fruit already b/c it was so stressed? But Krim is just early - a month in the ground - it never looked stressed though it was in the pot longer than I wanted. Looks like a double bloom too - probably get a lot of fused blooms/deformed fruit right now due to the hot weather (if they don't just drop the blossoms with nighttime low of 72 and daytime highs near 90 - hope it will break soon).

The Latah was set out very late (6/17?) and had been held in a 4.5" pot with 2nd Latah for a very long time before I moved each plant to its own pot. They both looked very spindly and leggy no matter how much room and how much light I gave them, so I wasn't hoping for much but I guess that's just their growth habit? The 2nd Latah is about half the size of the 1st (which really took off once I put it in the ground) but has a good number of blossoms so I think that might be setting fruit soon too. I just expect GD to ripen before Latah.

7/9/12 - I don't know how I missed it yesterday, but the Grandma Mary's next to the Black Krim that has 1 fruit also has 1 fruit. I don't know when I planted that one since I did replace about half of them, and I can't tell since all have grown but it was either 6/8-9 or 6/24 (but had been in a 1 gal pot for a while if it was a replacement).

This post was edited by ajsmama on Tue, Jul 9, 13 at 10:48

First fruit set on Independence Day (or whatever it is)! I'm surprised it's not on one of the plants I set out on 6/2, but one set out a few days later, in the middle of the row. They don't seem stressed (though a little wilted last night so I watered them just now - they haven't needed as much water as raised beds in full sun). Maybe they are determinates and growth is slowing b/c now they're getting ready to set fruit? They're all about 2.5ft tall, though getting bushy with lots of suckers. 46 days since the first 10 (9 remaining, 4 Ind. Day and 5 Best Boy) were set out, app. 40 days since the second set (5 each) were put in the ground.

Watered the main garden (1000ft from house) the other day and saw fruit on several cherries, a couple CP, more than 1 Grandma's, and a couple of Cosmonauts in addition to BK. Even the SS100 has picked up, Mark Twain and Rutgers have flowers though Rose de Berne seems to be sitting there.

Quite a few decent sized fruit on 1st Latah and 2nd Latah has caught up to it in height and is setting fruit now despite having morning shade. The Burpee tomatoes get more sun but still haven't set fruit(except for that 1 I just saw this morning) and given the weather this past week (today will be the worst) I expect everything will drop whatever blossoms they have. I will definitely have to save seeds from the Latah - I'd love to root a cutting but all except the 1" suckers have already formed fruit trusses! Maybe I can catch one of those when it gets a little bigger (but before it gets buds).

The volunteer tomato by the compost pile is now 3ft tall and has its first fruit set (probably a cherry) - very close (a few ft north and west) of the Independence Day so same sun, and it's never been watered. Of course, since it appears that the roots are going into the bottom of the middle (semi-finished) compost bin, and probably spreading into the finished bin next to it, they have more than 3ft deep moist OM piled on top of them. Should be interesting to pull that plant later and find out how far in each direction the roots go.

Edited to add photo of baby Independence Day!

This post was edited by ajsmama on Thu, Jul 18, 13 at 8:30

The Independence Day that I planted out about the same time as ajsmama (also from a like kind Burpee seed packet) are all 6 ft tall and still growing taller. No sign of determinate behavior so far. There seems to be a lot of fruit that has sized up, but there is still not indication of any ripening. I'm starting to get some yellowing on the lower leaves and I fear it is the start of early blight.

I'm beginning to wonder if we even got the same seeds, even though they were in the same style/labeled packet.

I'd take it, no matter what it was, if fruit was sizing up. You should start to see it ripen in the next month. I still have 1 pea-sized fruit and a few blossoms.

The volunteer I mentioned is now 4ft tall with tons of blossoms and 1 fruit. It's the tallest plant I have (no wonder) though Latah looks like it winds the prize for most fruit set so far (and I suspect earliest ripe fruit).

Saw another fruit on Independence Day I set out on June 2 (2nd in row)! Still nothing on Best Boy. 2nd one on volunteer too, and the Latahs are going crazy, the heat doesn't seem to bother them. Going out now to check on main crop and water again since yesterday's 2 T-storms didn't amount to much (probably all ran off, brief but heavy, I thought it was hail last night).

My Independence Day is not a "cocktail tomato" - I've got some tennis-ball or even baseball sized fruit on some now with no breaking. I don't even think they're determinates since they're still flowering even with fruit that big. So not the true Independence Day that is determinate (but 55 DTM not the 49 DTM on the packet) and not "4th of July" determinate either since fruit are too large (definitely more than 4 oz or "cocktail size").

northernmn - how are yours doing?

Finally a little bit of orange (and quite a few light yellow)! Definitely not cocktail sized (unless you drink from a bucket!), don't know when the first one will actually be ripe, maybe a week with mid-70's/50 temps predicted but my "49DTM" tomato is ripening at about the same rate as the 70DTM Best Boy in the same row, and both look to be maybe 100 days from transplant (June 2) to ripe fruit (knock on wood). Then again, I didn't see any color on Brandywine, Rutgers, or Rose de Berne (planted later - Rose de Bernes were all replaced mid-late June so I'm hoping to get some ripe before frost).

Strange tomato year - though my cousin said his have done well, I'll have to ask what/when he planted.

Flash Flood warning - we're expecting heavy rain tonight so I picked them a little earlier than I normally would have (picked a lot of my heirlooms and cherries this morning, and more tonight after the advisory came out). As you can see, these aren't "cocktail" sized!

This post was edited by ajsmama on Wed, Aug 28, 13 at 20:01

I was searching for DETERMINANT matoes got into this thread.
So finally, ajsmama got fruits on 4th July in August 28 ? This is worth celebrating.

I am still searching for some good determinate, early or mid season. I am trying to avoid 7 to 8 ft indets. I want to grow tomatoes not trees: LOL. As I searched, It seems that percentage wise there are much fewer DETS and most of them come from Russia. O' well, maybe I'll just keep my American pride and grow the controversial INDEPENDENT DAY !!

BTW, my search led me to to this thread because of the phrase " ... AND OTHER DETERMINANTS" in the title.

Lets seed if we can find some favorable DETs. recommendations from those who grow them with good results. I have read these names:

MONICA, BUSH BEEFSTEAK, 42 DAYS, GLACIER MIGHTY MATO, SILETZ, BEAVERLODGE

Have you ever gown any of those above?

The Quest for TRUE Determinants goes on. Her are a new names:

BLOODY BUTCHER
EARLI BELL MOUNTAIN PRINCESS
HISTORIC ...1905 SEMI-DET

..............................
There aren't many DET choices out there that fit my criteria.
I guess I will make my own determinant by pruning the heck out of them, getting them down to size. hehe

Seysonn,

What about Dwarfs?

Linda

This post was edited by labradors on Sun, Nov 17, 13 at 9:44

labradors

Dwarfs, semi dwarfs are also considered, if productive.
I've got a few names:

HAHNS GELBE TOPFTOMATE(yellow cherry)
POLISH DWARF

I don't have any experience with dwarfs yet, but am trying Dwarf Rosella Purple which is supposed to be tasty, along with Dwarf Arctic Rose which is supposed to be early and prolific, although not quite as tasty as Rosella. We shall see. I am growing them in pots over the winter.

Linda

My choices for DETs and DWARFs are from catalogs. As I could not find very many suggestions. So in part I am just going to experimen. Here are some more:

---BRADLEY (DET)
--- CANADIAN DWARF (DET)
--- CZECK BUSH (DET)
--- EARLY BELL (DET)
--- MOUNTAIN PRINCESS (DET)
--- ORIOVSKIE RYSAKE (DET)

These are just candidates for determinants until I find out more about them. Due to space limitation, I am trying to have as few INDETs as possible. It is very difficult to manage them. There are some dwarfs that I can plant in pots or in the flower garden.

You could check out Heritage Tomato Seed Company for information on the "Dwarf Project" tomatoes here:

http://heritagetomatoseed.com/category/heirloom-and-op-tomato-seeds/dwarf-tomato-project

I have no affiliation, but recently bought seeds from HTS, and was impressed with their prompt service and a bonus packet of seed. I also had 100% germination from the two varieties that I tried.

Linda

I wonder if anyone from Burpee ever reads forums, and why they don't make changes for the better if they do.

I get a kick out of threads like this, with a lot of history, controversy . Even my own old posts sound interesting to me. It shows how much I have learned over time.

DET or INDET?
I read a lot of post talking about the plant size as indication of det/indet. But to my understanding det/indet is not all about the plant size, BUT a different growth form. For example you can have a dwarf indeterminant tomato plant. Hmmm

INDET:
The plants grows like a vine with fruit clusters at the nodes just above the leaf branch, while the branch keeps growing and producing more nodes.

DET:
The plant has a more bushy shape (if not pruned) BUT that does not mean the real indication of being determinate.
The REAL indication of a DET is that fruit clusters appear at the tip/end of branches, NOT on the lower nodes. So the fruit cluster terminates the end of that particular branch. So to get more fruits there will be more lateral branches coming to play to produce fruits, IFF your season is long enough you might continue harvesting fruits all season long. That has been the case/my experience with Siletz and Legend (both det)

Semi Det/Indet ? : hahaha . what is that ? I need acollege degree for that one.

4th of July ? OR Independence Day ?
Well historically they are the same but according to Burpee IT IS NOT DETERMINED. hehe.

BTW. This year of 2015 I am growing 4th of July.
I could not locate my seeds packet. So what should I expect ?
Time will tell.

Seysonn

I keep learning .hehe