I don't know what kind of tomatoe will give you the highest yeild but 80 plants in a 40 sq. ft. area doesn't sound good. I would say 10 plants in that size area at the most.

if you want to increase the plant density, it really helps to grow vertically...

I think paste tomatoes will give the best yields. I was getting about 5-10 romas a day(at least) per plant for about a month in a single squarfoot space in July zone 5. These woke up again in September and did about the same in 3 weeks. I made bruschetta two or three times a week, two quarts worth of salsa, bean dip garden sauce, bruschetta pizza, put in salads using about 6 square feet. Keep in mind Romas are smaller , blight resistant and use less water and that figures in space. It should not be too surprising that paste tomatoes would be since canning has maximum yield as a goal.
Heinz varieties, Bellstar or other paste tomatoes are also other candidates for yield and space I would think.
I am sure there is an ideal space, not sure if 18" or more would be better or not for paste bush types. If you use a high performance soil mix you have a better chance.

40 square feet and using sprawl? That would allow for 20 plants - maybe. And they would be hanging over the sides and sprawling all over each other. Not to mention the disease and pest problems you'd likely develop in such a jungle. ;)

A sprawl grown plant, even a dwarf or small determinate, can easily take up 3 square feet.

But it's up to you of course ;) so I would recommend you investigate the bush beefsteak varieties for the most production of pounds per square foot. Bush Beefsteak comes to mind, Bush Champion, Bush Celebrity, Biltmore. They aren't true beefstake but still large and will outproduce the dwarf varieties in number.

Good luck.

Dave

Dan,
My very first raised bed was 4X12 and I squished 24 plants into it. I used a trellis system to keep almost completely vertical but it still basically became its own mini rain forest eco-system. The Macaws and Toucans living inside were really noisy and I swear there were times I heard thunderstorms contained solely from within!! I now grow 8 plants in those same size beds and still feel it's a couple too many.... Eighty plants sprawled in a 4X10!! Maybe Red Robin or something like that

YouÂve been around this forum long enough to realize there arenÂt going to be many here who will think this is a good idea. But go ahead and try it -- and please post a report. IÂll certainly be interested.

In another thread and just within the past hour dave1mn2 said, "I usually learn more from mistakes than success". IÂm the same way and I suspect the tomato growing community harbors a lot of folks like us.

Good luck!
Terry Light
Oak Hill, Virginia

Your best bet is giong to be an indeterminate grown vertically. Remember, your garden space upward is unlimited.

Well I will try to explain myself better. I was only making suggestions of possible methods. I do not know the answer here.

I could use a bunch of Jet Star and put them with say 6 to 8 square foot each or maybe a little less but that is not going to produce a ton of toms.

I have never grown a dwarf like New Big Dwarf. So this idea came to me that maybe they could give a big yield in small space. But maybe not.

It seems commercial growers put determinate plants very close together in the rows like 6 to 12 inches apart. Of course the rows are wider than that.

Now farmers grow tomatoes in 2 ways. One is for fresh tomatoes to sell to the public. The 2nd way is to grow for maximum production to sell to canners etc who simply buy tomatoes by the ton from the farmers. This method generally produces twice the tonage per acre as does the first method for shinny perfect toms for the consumer. The sale price of these toms is low. But the yield is high and they can sell all they can produce.

Now it seems to me I should be able to push the curve and double that yield again by making the rows close together in a raised bed. The only thing I can think of that might allow that would be a dwarf plant. But I am not sure if the total yield per plant will give a higher yield per acre if they are planted real close together.

I never hear about commercial growers using dwarf plants.

Fedco catalog says that Jet Star has won awards for highest production in greenhouses and won several times in different contests. not all were indoor greenhouse.

I make a lot of tomato juice and paste in the fall. I can make it from any and all tomatoes. So I want high production so I can free up some of my limited space for all the other veggies in the world.

well I found

http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/veggies/tomato1.html

it says dwarfs need 12 inches. so that would be one per square foot. I can agree more with that. Also they list some and the Husky Red Hybrid (68 days; 6 ounces; dwarf plant, large fruit; extended harvest; indeterminate; resistant to VF) sounds good to me.

Any input from everyone. Has anyone grown Husky Red Hybrid.

I grew Husky Gold once. Not that great production, thick skin, blah taste. Easy to grow, sturdy, compact, lush, deep green. Good for containers of folks that need something compact and easy.

I think it was Timmy said same as Husky Red.

Yield champ Charles Wilber grew Better Boy VFN but he grew em way tall.

If you are truly interested in growing for yield you might try his book.

Earl seems to have very good production from Aunt Gertie's Gold.

If juice and paste in the fall for canning is your main goal then the biggest producer I have ever grown in 40+ years was/is San Marzano. It's a very large paste tomato that we love for canning - both juice and sauce - produces by the bushel full.

But it is a huge indeterminate plant with exceptional production of very tasty paste tomatoes. You can let it sprawl of course but you wouldn't be able to get as many plants in the space. Growth and production amounts vary from garden to garden of course but it would sure be worth your consideration.

I am assuming you don't want to stake because of the time and work involved? Have you considered a Florida weave support system or a cattle panel? They will let you overcrowd plants easily (1-1.5') and you don't have to do any pruning with them unless you want to. Tie up the main stem and let the rest sprawl - gives you some additional vertical growing room without much effort.

Just something to consider. Check out the photos in the post linked below.

Dave

All the commercial grower grow determinate for yield per acre. No one uses indeterminate for that. They get the yield up by planting close together and they let them sprawl on the ground.

I want to do as the commercial proven yield but bring the rows closer together. They need wide rows for their tractors. We do not need a tractor in a raised bed.

I suspect a paste tomato can give high yield if it is a determinate plant.

Sorry to hear the Hanky Red has such low flavor. Maybe I will stick with Jet Star and simply crowd them a little bit. Maybe 10 plants in 40 sq feet.

But to me this will give a more normal yield and not really shoot for some kind of real high yield.

I read the Wilber book. Tomato plants do not grow like monsters for me. He also has a longer grow season. I believe the guy, but it is hard to believe I can grow like him. I want to use proven techniques used by commercial growers and adapt them to a raised bed.

DigDirt

That is a great link. wow. he sure grows the Italian toms. I am very impressed. Those tomatoes look so beautiful red. WOW.

I am growing tomatoes in a 36 sq feet raised bed (T-shaped). Although my situation is different from yours (I am growing indeterminate cherry tomatoes), I agree with everyone else in not putting too many plants in this area.

I originally put 13 seedlings in the bed in early April. I had to pull out one plant (a Yellow Pear) in late May because it was getting too crowded by the other plants and not getting any sun. I put tomato cages around each plant, I staked the plants when they grew out of the cages.

Now it is mid June and it is a jungle in there. I pruned a fair amount in April, a little bit in May and not at all now (I can't get to most of the suckers).

Next year, I will only plant 7 or 8 tomatoes in this space.

Here are some pictures:

The first picture is from 4/20. I had 9 seedlings planted. The mulch is coconut coir. You can see the drip irrigation emitters that I use for watering.

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This picture is from 4/27. Had mostly cloudy days, so not much growth.

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The sun came out, so had much better growth the next week (5/4)

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This picture is from 5/11. Planted 2 more seedlings to make the total 11.

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On 5/18, I added the final 2 seedlings (see the fresh dirt on the bottom left corner seedling)

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Had great growth the next week (5/27) due to sunny days, mild temperatures, perfect Southern California weather. I start getting worried that I put too many plants in too small a place.

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By 6/1, the plants have outgrown their cages. I decided to pull the plug on the Yellow Pear stuck in the middle of the bed. I stop trying to prune and decide to let the plants sprawl.

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This picture from 6/8 shows the stakes that I am using the support the Sun Gold and Sugar Snack tomatoes that are growing against the retaining wall.

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The final picture is from today (6/15). A veritable jungle of tomato plants. I have a lot of unripe tomatoes, a lot of flowers. The plants in the front (facing the sun) have the most flowers and tomatoes. The Sun Gold, Sugar Snack and Sungella have a lot of flowers in the growth above the shorter cherry tomatoes in the front. These plants only have a few tomatoes below (where the front plants block the sun). Unfortunately, I will need a ladder to pick the cherry tomatoes from these plants.

{{gwi:1344469}}

Here in Los Angeles, we have a least another 5 months to go in tomato season (until around Thanksgiving). I am curious to see how dense and how productive the plants will be. I am also worried about August, when the weather turns extremely hot (above 100 degrees in the day and above 80 degrees at night). I also worry about disease.

Wow. Nice garden. Beautiful. One reason I dont really want to go up is because I am not so sure it increases the yield that much more then small plants kept near the ground. But then I could be wrong.

Unfortunately you have all cherry toms. I want the most yield. Cherry toms do not give the highest yield but great tasting small ones.

IMHO over crowding plants is not the way to acheive maximum yeild. And, I think you're inviting disease and problems.

People have posted their yield results for various varieties so you could try to search. You can also search the internet for yield results.

You might not be able to find results for exactly what you want to do. In that case you might have to experiment. One idea would be to take half your area and grow a properly spaced productive indeterminate or determinate (or a little of each) Examples would be Early Girl and Celebrity. Then in the other half closely plant the drawfs you were thinking of and see what you get. If you do that please report back your results.

Good luck.

Randy

I very frequently see tomatoes spaced that close together especially in green houses. However they usually remove the lower foliage as the plant grows. I suspect that growing fewer bushing plants will result in a lower yield with the trade off being maintenance free. If the lower foliage were pruned then there would be plenty of air circulation and no lower leaves to become wet. Given the expenses involved with maintaining a green house vining up wards is typically the choice.

Pruning plants spaced for bushes will certainly reduce yield. Not pruning plants spaced for pruning will shade lower leaves and create a better environment for tomato pathogens and probably also reduce yield. Best pruning is done with no more than 2 inch suckers done with your fingers and will aim vegetative grow where it will receive constant sun. One must do one or the other.

One reason I don't really want to go up is because I am not so sure it increases the yield that much more then small plants kept near the ground. But then I could be wrong.

Pruning aside, it has been researched and well documented that vertical growing will increase yield substantially. One study out of Iowa State University shows as much as 8-10 lbs. of additional fruit from plants that are staked vs. sprawl. But the only way you are ever going to know for sure which works best in your gardening space is to give both a try and compare the results for yourself. ;)

But one of your basic assumptions, if I understand correctly, is that commercial farmers grow determinates sprawled to achieve greater production. But keep in mind that there are several other factors too that determine why they grow they way they do.

One is the huge automated watering system set-ups they use, then there is the need to cultivate the planted acres, another is the mechanical harvesting systems they use, and a really important one is the ability of determinates to crop all at once in a relatively tight time frame for harvesting.

Isn't it possible that it those factors rather than increased yield that determines what and how they grow their crop? Just something to consider. Either way, good luck. ;)

Dave

Thanks for some good comments. I hope and encourage more comments.

I have tried to find yields on the internet but no luck. Does anyone have a good way to find yields. what should I google to find them.

thanks

dangould,

Sorry, I didn't know how to provide a link to the YouTube Video that I have had fun watching since I am new to tomatoe growing. Hopefully the URL below takes you to his website. I have learned a ton (not tomatoes yet) from his videos. His goal is maximum yield per a given area. He is using the Florida Weave. It might shed some light on your discussion. He is into week 10. He is a long time farmer in Northern California and he is documenting his maximum yield experiment on YouTube. If this link doesn't work; the name of the video is Chuck's Garden, the Won Mini Ranch, Orlando, CA #1-10. Watch all ten videos it is enlightening. I am sure he would answer any questions if contacted.

It would be great if you documented your experiment and shared with us

Aloha

Here is a link that might be useful: Chuck's Garden

Now this is the best comment among them.

"But one of your basic assumptions, if I understand correctly, is that commercial farmers grow determinates sprawled to achieve greater production. But keep in mind that there are several other factors too that determine why they grow they way they do."

It is not a cheap attempt at reconciliation its simply dead on.

I hope I don't break any hearts when I say commercial growers are better at growing food than we are. I also believe McDonalds is a first rate cuisine given its mandate being edible, fast and cheap. I just go there for the clean bathrooms when I travel. So why do we gardeners buck the trend and take on an entity that we in no way could compete against? Because they don't serve us to the same degree. Many people in the US just don't care how food tastes or are not willing to spend the time or the money. In my field I also do stupid things because that is what the market demands. Commercial growers are not stupid but their customers in my opinion are, relatively speaking. People in our market will choose unblemished fruit based on price over good tasting food. They don't want to know how its made or where it came from. That is the market. When I was in Hungry the waiter brought me a fish to display the daily special. A whole fish with the head and all and not a machine cut fillet? In the US it may as well be a fresh pig's head. I prefer the feet because they make some of the finest soup stocks but does not hide its fundamental nature as well as a can.

Commercial growers use determinate paste tomatoes for canning because it is cheaper to use wide open spaces and harvest all at once. Growing up on vines is not efficient because land is cheap. In a green house each square foot is expensive so they grow on vines up. Thick skinned varieties are preferable because they ship. Supermarket strawberries taste bad for straw berries but ship very well. One of my favorite wines, red Zinfindel, has some of the oldest vines in the country because its thick skinned grapes were ideal during prohibition. There was still a market because making you own wine was still legal. In this case the thick skin makes great jammy red wine.

So basically the bush beans you plant often have mechanical harvesting needs bred into it. The goal is to fruit all at once and be a uniform height, resist disease and have no blemish. Now I want some of that. I do want to resist disease but not always because I believe I may control it for a better tasting variety. That is some of what is behind the heirloom trend. I like bush beans because I can put those on southern exposures. I grow pole beans on northern exposures.

The reason why the home gardener beats the commercial grower in areas of taste, nutrition and hygiene is because the home gardener has some of the smartest consumers. However I do respect how well the pros satisfy ignorance and can certainly learn from them. Since I am in the space restricted camp I pay attention to green house growing.

The limiting factor is root space.

The "master gardeners" in Santa Clara County, Calif., sell tomato seedlings as a fund raiser every spring. They say that if you want more varieties but don't have enough space, they've experimented with planting 2 plants in the same hole/cage. They claim each plant produces less than it would if it had its own space, but together the two plants produce about as much as a single plant.

Steve Solomon, who has written several books on gardening, advocates planting as far apart as you can. He has had lots of land for his gardens (and seed business), so has planted as much as 4 ft. apart IIRC. He claims that yields are much better using his methods.

If I were interested in maximizing yields, I'd find the best local growers and find out what varieties do the best for them in your climate. I'd also concentrate on short-season varieties and plant successive crops (if you have a long-enough season), and do a lot of research on amendments, fertilization schedule, watering schedule, etc.

I'm more interested in variety, so I plant several different varieties each year, space them 18 to 24 inches apart, and cage them.

The most productive variety regardless of any given space -to date, is (Guido) tried and tested in both the USA, Canada, and Europe, and most of the proffessional growers state that it quite regularly produces 35 to 40 lbs of fruit per plant, if well grown, with large tomatoes.

One of the best Canadian growers that I know- swears by it and harvests tons of tomatoes from them- the seed for it is widely distributed on most of the tomato furums seed exchange areas.

Hmm, 35-40 pounds doesn't seem like that much.

I didn't weigh my tomatoes, but I did count them the past few years. I fertilize only with compost (and some fermented comfrey tea) and plant them fairly close together with cages. We get no rain all summer, so I water once every week to 10 days. But the season is long. I plant early with protection (Feb-March) and generally get my first ones at the end of June and the last ones at the beginning of December (when they freeze), though yields and taste drop off by the end of October.

Here are some yields from 2006.
Early Girl, 261, assume at least 3 oz. each = almost 49 pounds
(and it was in part shade)
Siberia, 286, ditto, = over 53 pounds
and, for comparison, cherry tomatoes
Galinas, 1366, at least 1/2 ounce each = 42 pounds
(also in a shadier location)

This year I plan to weigh them, assuming I can intercept them on the way to my mouth.

I can not find the Guido Tomato Seeds. Help needed.

I think I found the correct site for Chuck's Garden here.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C1C244B6DD397003

I am going to watch some now. It looks good. I will report back on the videos.

Well that was fun. the videos have a great positive attitude. I really enjoyed watching the videos. Very nice.

Some of the best results I have had in terms of yield and ease is to plant tomatoes every three feet on a grid (I have had good luck with san marzano type)mulch and let them sprawl. This creates healthy blight resistant plants I think partly due to the fact that the plant puts down new roots every time it sprawls.Cutting and tying and handling is a stress to the plant and the sprawl method is the way they seem to want to grow.It is possible to lose some fruit to rot that is usually the first ripe ones which have a defect anyway. In any case the yields are so high that it more than makes up for it.