I have about 6 tomatoes growing in 15gal black containers. These containers are placed on a bench, beside a North facing 5' wall. An olive tree gives all but one of them shade at about mid-day. The rest of the day they get full sun. They've been growing quite well/tall. As a matter or fact two are so tall that they've outgrown their cages. Most are bearing tomatoes, but the older leaves are yellow and most of the leaves look wilted even when the soil is dry. Some of the yellow wilted leaves are dry and crispy. This all started about a month ago when they really started growing.

I water only when soil is dry, but not to the flaky point. I never water overhead only under down at the stem and soil level. Until recently I was watering in either the early evening or early morning until a few days ago. I then read a post that it's better to only water in the morning.

I've been using Bonnie Plants Herb and Vegetable liquid plant food (8-4-4). Maybe not often enough, about every month as the directions say twice a week.

While at OSH a few weeks ago I spotted some bat guano (10-3-1) and recalled reading a post that it was good for tomatoes. I kind of bought it on a whim, since this OSH or any other descent gardening sources aren't very close by except for the big box stores.

Today I did a soil test. PH = 7.2/7.3, N = depleted, P = Surplus and K = Surplus.

Can I do better than the food above even if I used as directed, twice per week?
To boost the Nitrogen add only Fish or blood meal for now?
Is there a better or equal, but slow release organic fert/food? Or is what I have sufficient?

I know my feeding habits need work, but I don't want to lose these plants do to my past laziness. What can I do this week before I water again?

BTW, I have multiple peppers in the same soil configurations, but in direct sun all day with no wilt and nice and healthy looking. Lots of flowers and young peppers. Should I be concerned here also?

Lastly, when tomatoes get too tall do you trim them down or let them grow to full potential? If you trim them will it produce more or bigger tomatoes?

Thanks for any help.
Tony

I was just looking at meters, see the link that follows. Is that appropriate?

Other source of nitrogen is GOOD manure(chicken, cow, horse) They also are soil amendments.

I normally feed my plants every other day and water in the evenings. If high temperatures are being experienced then I will water in the AM as well as the PM.

Go ahead and give your plants the bat guano for a couple feedings the go with your 8-4-4. Then see if you can find a fert with higher K. I recommend BioBizz Biogrow which I have used in my containers for the last 6 years with excellent results. It is molasses based and gives excellent results on tomatoes.

OP says that his soil test indicated SURPLUS K. why does he need to get something with high K? !!

You keep mentioning soil: "the leaves look wilted even when the soil is dry", "I water only when soil is dry" and "Today I did a soil test." Do you actually have soil (dirt) in your containers? If so that could be the root of a lot of the problems you are seeing.

When planting in a container, it is best to use a soilless growing medium, not dirt from the yard or a bagged "garden soil" because it tends to compact in a pot and then it drains poorly and the tomato's roots will drown or suffocate and the plant will die or struggle and do poorly.

Plants that are grown in any kind of container will need feeding more often than plants that are grown in the ground because each time they are watered, the water run off carries away vital nutrients. Many container growers will use a dilute solution of a liquid fertilizer every week or two depending on the condition of the plant.

Due to the unique conditions of container growing, soil tests are not useful. Because of the lack of a "microherd" many of the nutrients in a container medium are not availble to be utilized by the plant. That is why container plants need to be fed often with a water soluble relatively balanced fertilizer.

Betsy

Betsy, this year I went to a large yard that recommended this soil mix for tomatoes. It was not bagged, they sell it by the truck load, but in my case they sold it to me by filling up the black containers. I've been tossing this around for a few days and am now convinced that it's meant for the ground. It's very compact and not at all fluffy. It really needs a soaking to "drain well".

If this is the case, what can I do now for this season without spending a ton of cash replanting and possibly killing these for good?

Thanks

This converted it into a sort of tiny raised bed, with better water movement and more room for the roots to wander. The plant had been limping along (I noticed brownish roots instead of healthy white ones), but it rebounded well after being "set free." :)

I have even used the bottomless pot (just a tall ring, really) to plant in every year since, so it has come in handy. Then again, yours look like nicer pots than the one I hacked.

At the same time I picked up some MG 12% nitrate blood meal as it made sense to add just N since there is a surplus of P and K. I fluffed up the soil down to about 3", which wasn't as hard as I originally thought, and added two tablespoons each for the 15 gallons, mixed it in really well and watered.

@edweather, I'm not sure if the wall is "reflecting heat". Currently that area gets full sun, but it only hits the side of the wall for a few hours a day then moves more to the top of it, so kind of straight down. As the summer progresses it will hit the side more and more. I'll pay attention to that, thanks. EDIT IN: will I kill the plants if I repot now in the heat we've had? No, no space for planting in ground.

@seysonn, I asked for the NH3/urea at Lowes and they had never heard of it. I also looked and could not find it in the plant food area. Sound nice to have around, I'll keep looking elsewhere. I do have a composted bag of chicken manure that I use it around my plum. Since it doesn't state the NPK levels or any directions except "mix into soil" I didn't want to make matters worse.

@miesenbacher, I'll try the watering in the eve in addition to the AM if needed. When I'm out of my current 8-4-4 I'll consider the BioBizz Biogrow, but it seems low in N (2-0.1-6) where I have a problem or should I keep supplementing with blood meal or other organic? Why do i want to increase the K when I have a surplus?

@Betsy, When I said "yard" I did mean a retailer, Sunshine Growers, btw.

@jadie88, Ya, no chance on cutting these pots. Mainly because I have no room. The only area I have they'd get hit by the sprinklers and get sun only for 1/2 a day. Someday, when the kids are grown and gone, I'll take the swing set down and it'll all be mine, all mine and I'll do what I want. ;)

All, what should I do next? Wait a week and test my soil again now that I've added the nitrate? Feed either way in a few days with my 8-4-4? Other?

Thanks a lot for all the advice so far.

If they are sitting on concrete, the heat is then just getting magnified.

In every growing medium, in the ground, and in potted plantings, there is a level at which the soil's "wicking" ability to suck water upward (think about a paper towel dipped in water) balances the downward gravitational pull. This is called the perched water table. Below the perched water table, the soil is saturated with water, which can suffocate plant roots and encourage root rot. Above this level is usable soil. Using soil in a container will have a higher perched water table because of the lack of porosity in it. The more compact the soil, the more it holds water. Which sounds like a good thing until you realize how much air roots need.

With tomatoes grown in the ground, the perched water table is usually many, many feet below the ground.

You are getting a few tomatoes. So you can look at this as a learning experience. You will know so much more for next year.

BTW, where are you located? You can add your zone and location info to your profile so it shows on your posts. That can be helpful. For instance, in some areas, the season is long enough, that they can get a second crop. If your in one of those, you could apply your new found knowledge to a second crop.

Betsy

@seysonn, did you find the NH3 in the garden area?

@mambooman, They're not sitting directly on concrete. There are 2x4's in between, sort of like a bench. I currently have no other place to put these that wouldn't be in the hot direct sun all day. If i wrapped something around the pots would it subdue the additional heat? Brown wrap?

Even though these are possibly in the wrong medium, could I get as much life out of them by reading the moisture that way and water accordingly? I understand the air problem and what's going on with the roots, but will this at-least aid these for the time being? I'll also continue adding blood meal until nitrogen levels are up to par.

Also, the way the sun is currently situated it only hits the top of the pots/plants being next to the wall like they are, thus not baking the soil and over heating the pots themselves. The wall also does not reflect any strong sunlight since it never gets hit with any sun. Of course this will change as the year goes on.

All in all I've summarized that it's not only a nitrogen problem, but also the medium.

Next year is another year. I'll have to build my own containers as store bought that will fit and be large enough, are far too expensive. I'm considering red wood or cedar. Opinions? I'll also make sure the appropriate medium is used and to check the NPK and PH levels sooner. I'd love to use gritty mix, but again, the cost would be astronomical. Although my Kumquat is doing marvelous in the stuff.

Thanks for everyone's help. As far as my Tom's, I'll limp along until next year

I'm really surprised that no one else has mentioned the notoriously inaccurate results one gets from a DIY soil test kit - unless I missed it in all the above. Never make any nutrient decisions based on them as they will always read just about what you got for results. They always give a pH in the 7 range and a low N reading.

Given the appearance of your plants in the pictures and all the subsequent info that has come out in the discussion, lack of N is the very least of your problems. And going over-board with N at this point is only going to create more problems.

could I get as much life out of them by reading the moisture that way and water accordingly?

Unless you invest in $250+ moisture meter they too are well noted for inaccuracy and mis-leading results. You'd do better with your finger or a wood stick stuck deep in the pot.

I don't see any indication of your zone or where you live but if in anything but zone 4 or in zone 8 or higher you likely have plenty of time to start over and do it right rather than wasting more time and effort on those poor plants.

If that won't work root some cuttings off a couple of the plants - lots of posts here on how to do it - if you can find some healthy growth tips. Then pull the old plant, fill the container with some plain old bagged potting mix like Miracle Grow Potting Mix (no soil) or one of the other brands and once the cuttings root (8-10 days) plant them in the pots. It will improve your odds of success ten-fold.

Hope this helps.

Dave

I'll try this and see what takes. Is there a particular thread that you could refer me to? What key words should I search for?

Should I be looking for at-least "Premium" potting mix?

How do I test the soil to get accurate results and know what it needs as far as nutrients?

As I pointed out, in a post above, I'm in a 9b in SoCal. I will add it to my profile... again.

Thanks again.

You can't. Only professional soil testing labs can do an accurate soil test. One is available from your local county ag extension office if needed. However when growing in containers with proper potting mixes it isn't necessary and very seldom done. Proper soil-less container mixes are already pH balanced prior to bagging/sale. When reusing them the second year many will add a bit of lime to the mix but is properly amended with some fresh mix even doing that likely isn't necessary.

Search terms 'rooting cuttings', 'cuttings', clones', etc.

Should I be looking for at-least "Premium" potting mix?

Depends on what you mean by "premium". AFAIK Miracle Grow Potting Mix is considered a premium mix. So is Sta-Green, Farfad, and hundreds of others. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the mixes recommended on the Container Gardening forum. They are great and used by many, myself included from time to time, and if you are container gardening exclusively then worth the time and effort to use.

But they sure aren't the only options available. Thousands, again myself included, garden in containers with commercial soil-less mixes quite successfully. My personal preference is ProMix BX but it may not be available in your area and the MG mix is available most everywhere.

As for "needs for nutrients" ANY container regardless of the soil-less mix used in it, will require regular supplemental feedings of a balanced N-P-K-micro fertilizer since nutrients leach out every time you water. How often depends on the size of the containers and how often they have to be watered - a weekly diluted to 1/2 strength mix is commonly recommended.

Low-nitrogen works best with tomatoes and 100s of brands are available. Liquids used as a regular part of the watering regimen work best but granular can work too when used properly. Synthetics work better than organics because there is no soil food web, no micro-herd, in soil-less mixes to convert the organics as needed.

The issue is not the brand of mix used but that it be soil-less.

Hope this helps.

Dave

PS: you can read through many discussions here on growing in containers that contain all this info and much more from many experienced posters if you just put 'container' in the forum search bar at the bottom of the page.

Any quick tips you want to share on doing clippings in the vermiculite? And hell, even what to use as a "clipping"?

Tony

I really don't want to have to type out all the step by step instructions for how to root cuttings yet again. Let me sort through all the posts about it and copy and paste the instructions here for you.

So what I do, is take a smallish container, such as a 2x2" or 3x3" pot and fill it with soilless growing medium, poke a hole big enough for the tomato stem and put it in it, then firm the medium around the stem and water very well. (To the point of saturation.) Then I put the tomato in an area with bright but not direct light. For me that is usually under my fluorescents that I use for seed starting. I start with cuttings that have at least 3-5 leaves on them and about 3-4” of stem below the leaves. (I have used smaller than that successfully, but it takes longer to get a good sized plant for transplanting.) Keep the medium pretty wet, I have even had the rooting container sitting in about a quarter to half inch of water and just let it stay in there but don’t add anymore water. The first day or two the plant will droop a lot and look like it is gonna die, but then it will perk up. When it perks up, that means it has started making roots and you can stop keeping the potting mix so wet and follow a normal watering regimen. Give it a few more days to a week longer and once it is well established, you can harden it off for planting outdoors.

You can use bigger cuttings, but you'd need a bigger pot and they may not recover quite as quickly. People do it all the time when they have a branch break off a plant in the garden and they just shove the broken branch into the soil and as long as it is moist enough and the branch is somewhat shaded, it will usually grow.

Betsy

Any small container (old cell packs work fine) with drain holes filled with a well moistened sterile potting mix works. A 4-6" growth tip cutting or a "sucker" - no leaf branches or bare stems - stuck deep into the dampened mix and lightly pressed into place and labeled works. Indoor temps are best - less stress and sun isn't needed for the first 3-4 days anyway. The cuttings will droop for 2-3 days, keep the soil lightly moistened until they perk up. Then they can be moved to the shade until ready to transplant.

Takes 8-10 days

Dave

Dave,
Although I'll be using the MG mix ... I read of the vermiculite in a few threads here. Here are a couple:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tomato/msg0612374628014.html

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tomato/msg0711243831773.html