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| I had read a study on using urine in the garden (stop squirming, you use horse poop without blinking an eye). The study, referenced here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090902112750.htm found that a mixture of diluted urine and wood ash yielded 4 times more tomatoes than non-fertilized plants. How could I resist fun like that? Peeing in an empty milk bottle...sweet! I planted identical Cherokee Purple seedlings at the same time in late May (zone 5a). Both get identical treatment, except one gets 1/2 strength fish emulsion every two weeks, and the other a solution of wood ash and urine. I used about 2 oz. of peepee and 1 Tbsp. of wood ash mixed in 20oz. of water. The Peepee plant is on the right in the image, with 12 emerging fruits and many additional blossoms. The fish emulsion plant is on the left with 8. Believe me, my wife will never hear about this breakthrough. |
This post was edited by schroedpot on Wed, Jul 16, 14 at 16:43
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by ILoveCucumbers (My Page) on Wed, Jul 16, 14 at 17:02
| Most excellent! I'm going to try this next season. My husband will never hear about it, either. |
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- Posted by carolyn137 z4/5 NY (My Page) on Wed, Jul 16, 14 at 18:37
| I know some who have used human pee as supposed fertilizer, and with mixed results, and now speaking as a retired Microbiologist I would NEVER suggest that anyone do that. Carolyn |
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| Urine has lots of by products including nitrogen, however with some medical conditions it is possible to have lots of pathogens in the urine. This could be fun though |
Here is a link that might be useful: compost toilets
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- Posted by ILoveCucumbers (My Page) on Wed, Jul 16, 14 at 19:17
| curiosity is an admirable trait. |
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- Posted by schroedpot 6 (My Page) on Wed, Jul 16, 14 at 20:07
| Carolyn, as a retired audio engineer, I'm not suggesting that anyone should follow my example, because Lord knows I make bad decisions daily. I know this kind of thing provokes all kinds of heated discussions on forums, and I didn't mean to do anything like that. I can't debate the point because I don't have the tools to do that. Just a guy who likes to pee in bottles and eat tomatoes. I guess the best advice would be to research as thoroughly as possible if you're tempted to try this. |
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| The study says: "Results of the first study evaluating the use of human urine mixed with wood ash as a fertilizer for food crops has found that the combination can be substituted for costly synthetic fertilizers to produce bumper crops of tomatoes without introducing any risk of disease for consumers." So, assuming that we don't have some horrible disease and that we aren't taking medications, what would be wrong with using urine on our tomato plants? Isn't human urine supposed to be sterile? Linda |
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| I know this kind of thing provokes all kinds of heated discussions on forums, and I didn't mean to do anything like that. I can't debate the point because I don't have the tools to do that. Just a guy who likes to pee in bottles and eat tomatoes. Good and wise position to take. :) Hopefully others will take the same path. Or they can just read all the previous discussions all over the forums on the subject. My question, as one with very alkaline native soil so very reluctant to use wood ash, is do you know what your soil pH is normally or before and after? Dave |
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- Posted by schroedpot 6 (My Page) on Wed, Jul 16, 14 at 21:00
| Sorry about another urine thread Dave, but I thought the difference in plants was noteworthy (and on a side note, your posts are always interesting and basically awesome). I also have very alkaline soil; a pH of 7.7, according to the extension service, but haven't retested the pee-amended soil. It was just one plant, just a tiny experiment. After 40 years of gardening, I've finally retired and decided to try to learn how. I firmly believe in your mantra of getting the soil healthy as the very best way to make healthy plants. How urine fits into that scheme I'm not sure. But I know for a fact that I'd rather use urine than dichlorohexatanathol or moxypyluthacan as a supplement. I'll let you all know if I contract any crippling diseases. |
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| No problem. :) Was just wondering how much its effect on soil pH might explain the results if you began with an acidic soil pH. But it does encourage me that since you started with a high pH soil similar to my 8.2 and still got the pictured results with the wood ash I might be able to pull off some composted wood ash supplements to boost my low K and Mg. Since we heat with wood I have plenty of it I am always looking for ways to recycle it. I have always restricted it to the containers rather than the in ground beds. Thanks for the info. Keep us posted. Dave |
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- Posted by Slimy_Okra 2b (My Page) on Wed, Jul 16, 14 at 22:04
| I suppose it's possible that your soil is very well-buffered, especially if you've been adding lots of organic matter to it. But once that buffering capacity has been overwhelmed, the wood ashes will do more harm than good. Although the urea in urine has an acidic effect, there's not enough in 2 oz of pee to counter 1 T of wood ash. I pee all over the yard on non-edible plants - it's large enough that I rarely pee in the same place more than a few times a season. It sure cuts down on water usage :). |
This post was edited by Slimy_Okra on Wed, Jul 16, 14 at 22:07
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| Wood ash itself is a great source of potassium. Second, In average most soils across USA is acidic than alkaline. Few years ago I read a study done by the university of Copenhagen about collecting and using human urine. Their method wast to keep it bottled for a while then adding it to things like fall leaves and let it compost. They did not recommend direct application. Like mentioned while do we use, eg, horse droping and what not but cannot use our own pee? Dogs and cats do it all over tha place and we never complain !! hehe |
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- Posted by theforgottenone1013 5b/6a MI (My Page) on Thu, Jul 17, 14 at 0:13
| "Dogs and cats do it all over tha place and we never complain !!" Maybe you don't complain but I start swearing every time I find that a cat has done it's business in my garden. haha If I ever started using my urine, the only place I'd use it would be in the compost. This is one of those things that I read about every now and then, and when I do it's something I think about doing but never do. Now this thread has got me thinking again... Rodney |
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| my garden soil is high in organics and i use urine both directly on the veg garden and on my summer compost heap-despite the hottest summer on record here in reno the garden has thrived remarkably-unlike manufactured nitrogen fertilizers urine works with the soil biota rather than against it-i planted the garden on june 1st |
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| It's an interesting premise, but I personally would hesitate to try anything based on such a limited experiment. I've had plants from the same seed packet, grown and planted out at the same time, right next to each other and with the exact same water and fertilizer schedule, exhibit wildly different growth rates and fruit set. It's hard to reach any conclusion with such a small sample size and no true control. There are a lot of variables to control in the study referenced, let alone in a home garden. I noticed the study didn't have an organic fertilizer group for comparison, just the urine, urine + wood ash, synthetics, and no fertilizer treatments. One of the more interesting conclusions was that urine alone had a bigger yield than the urine + wood ash, and even urine alone didn't do better than synthetic fertilizer. The benefit of the urine + wood ash is only evident when considering the pH effects (reduces acidity) and probably the more sustainable source of the N and other nutrients, though I can't see how wood ash is all that sustainable when you consider the scale at which it would need to be applied for conventional agriculture. |
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| I wont apply it directly to the garden, near the plants. The study that I referred to (University of Copenhagen) recommended adding it to things like hay, leaves then use those as fertilizer. They have figured out that the use of one person's urine (365 days a year) can make more than enough fertilizer for an average home garden. ( I don't recall exact details). So the process is to keep it in bottle for a certain number of days and then adding it to a raw compost. |
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- Posted by schroedpot 6 (My Page) on Thu, Jul 17, 14 at 7:08
| A possibly important note; It was a mixture of 1 Tbsp. Wood ash, 2 ounces of pee, and 20 ounces of water, but I split that amount between two plants. This was a ratio I found in a study that I didn't bookmark. There was no control plant in the second instance (a Mortgage Lifter), so there would be nothing to compare to. But the second plant, the Mortgage Lifter, is the most vigorous of the 10 plants I have (photo below). Logic and science aren't my long suits, and Mortgage Lifters usually do well for me anyway, so that piece of information is probably just fluff. And in case you were thinking (I know you were) that you'd add more of everything and get monsters, that wasn't the case in the materials that I've read. Search for yourself, then do what seems logical to you. Remember, you can never go wrong on the internet. |
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| Not disputing the power of your fertilizer, but Mortgage lifter is naturally a vigorous plant. I am growing one. It looks like yours, close to 7ft tall, but very few fruits (maybe 3, so far). It is perhaps the biggest plant among two dozen plants in my garden and it has been treated the same way. |
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- Posted by carolyn137 z4/5 NY (My Page) on Thu, Jul 17, 14 at 14:47
| A few catchup comments. It used to be thought that urine in the bladder was sterile, but there are now suggestions that's not always true.No link here b'c I want to save that for another one I'll link to at the bottom. Sterile urine aside, it's well known that the urethra in both men and women are colonized by many bacteria, which hopefully get flushed out, but it's also known that some of them can ascend the urethra to end up in the bladder causing a UTI ( urinary tract infection), and unfortunately some can ascend the ureters up to the kidneys which is called pyelonephritis, and is serious. Most MD's will order a catheter obtained bladder specimen or a suprapubic( via needle) specimen to avoid urethra contamination. And yes, I know of all the net info on urine and wood ashes but it might be helpful to look at the links showing that Samonella can enter the interior of fruits, a large outbreak of that. And not that many would have Salmonella, agreed, but it means that it's possible that almost any pathogen could enter. Above Lindalana mentioned individuals who take certain meds being in the urine and that'sa valid concern IMO, especially if antibiotics are considered. I'm not blowing my horn here but just want to indicate that I taught med students in two different places infectious diseases and the immune response. When I moved back East from Denver to take care of my parents I taught at a liberal arts college where I taught the same plus Soil Microbiology as well as Environmental Microbiology. I am concened about Stuff that might be in urine in terms of soil heath, and also what might be there from urethral contamination that might enter fruits. I know that my view is not shared by many and is also more conservative than most, but my backgound and training compels me to post my own concerns. Finally, I'm linking to a thread here at GW about this SAME issue of urine for fertilizer, it's a very long thread but does cover some of the concerns that I have as well as some others. Carolyn |
Here is a link that might be useful: GW thread on use of human urine
This post was edited by carolyn137 on Thu, Jul 17, 14 at 18:54
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- Posted by michael723 6 (My Page) on Thu, Jul 17, 14 at 15:37
| Interesting yes, but not provoking enough to get me to drink the kool-aid =)... The argument is "a mixture of diluted urine and wood ash yielded 4 times more tomatoes than non-fertilized plants." That's not too impressive to me because ANY type of fertilizer regiment could easily produce the same results. I'd be more interested if the method was put up against a common method of fertilizing; whether synthetic or organic. As others have mentioned, the efficacy of the experiment (in your case) is put in to question because no two seeds are the same. Your results would be more convincing if you cut two clones from the same mother and did a side by side with them.. There are MANY inexpensive organic alternatives (home composting to name one) to common synthetic methods.. As Carolyn explained, pee just isn't worth the risk.. I'll keep aiming at the bowl lol . . . |
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- Posted by Slimy_Okra 2b (My Page) on Thu, Jul 17, 14 at 16:06
| Most rural people probably have the pee and/or poop of coyotes, raccoons, mice, rabbits, deer, voles, squirrels, feral cats and who knows what else on their property. There's really no reason to start worrying about microbes in human pee. I personally don't use it on soil used for growing vegetables because I eat a lot of salt and don't want to burn my plants with sodium-laden urine. |
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- Posted by schroedpot 6 (My Page) on Thu, Jul 17, 14 at 17:55
| Carolyn, thanks for the well composed and sincere thoughts and all the information. Even though the topic has been around the block a few times, it's still interesting to me. I think part of the equation, along with science, is risk tolerance. We all take risks every day, from sitting behind the steering wheel to burning wood in the stove to eating foods that someone else grew. I'm ok with this risk. |
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- Posted by carolyn137 z4/5 NY (My Page) on Thu, Jul 17, 14 at 19:10
| Most rural people probably have the pee and/or poop of coyotes, raccoons, mice, rabbits, deer, voles, squirrels, feral cats and who knows what else on their property. There's really no reason to start worrying about microbes in human pee. &&&&&& I live in the boonies so am a rural person and yes I have all that you mention as critters,add mink and possum and Moose and foxes, and skunks and bats,and wild turkies,etc. Within the larger picture of infectious diseases there's a group called zoonotic diseases,those infections where the same organism can infect both humans and certain critters. There are few that I worry about and I don't think others should but will add that here where I live I do get concerned when there's an uptick of confirmed rabies being reported. However, by far the most infections in humans come from another human via various means of transmission, and that's my concern about human urine and the larger significance that Iposted above. Carolyn |
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| Just a side note to keep in mind .... Telling the police that you were just "watering your garden" when someone catches you applying your urine directly isn't going to get you off the hook. I'ld advise the "inside the bathroom and catch it in a bottle or other suitable temporary container" and then apply to wherever you need to stick it approach. |
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- Posted by Whosurtomato 6a Southern IN (My Page) on Thu, Jul 17, 14 at 20:17
| However, by far the most infections in humans come from another human via various means of transmission, and that's my concern about human urine and the larger significance that Iposted above. Carolyn &&&&&& I am not going to try it but what if it was boiled? |
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- Posted by carolyn137 z4/5 NY (My Page) on Thu, Jul 17, 14 at 23:45
| Boiling wonl't work b/c it precipitates all the protein in the urine which makes for a glompy, my word, mess/ Using a Millipore bacterial filter might work, but do that one needs a pretty big setup and they aren't available to the public at large anyway, as far asI know. There are some that can be used with small syringes, but trust me that won't work for much urine processing. ( smile) Carolyn |
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| for those who are interested in a subject there is good book to read. I think humanure does belong in sustainable argicutlural future. |
Here is a link that might be useful: humanure
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| Yes urine has nitrogen in it hence the word urea as in urea nitrogen fertilizer for plants. I suppose the wood ash is for P and K but you may not need the wood ash. It is nice to see you did an experiment to see the results. Urine is fairly clean unless the person has an infection as stated above and medications can pass in the urine so it may be a good idea to compost it. This also ties into a larger idea of sustainability. I for one would definitely hesitate to use 'sewage compost' for lack of a better term from municipal sources on farmland or large scale operations, at least until methods and safety standards are improved. For a home gardener it could be relatively safe if good practices are used. This would help 'close the cycle' so that we don't continue to burn fuel to synthesize nutrient sources and wash them away into the ocean. |
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| Talking about bacteria and pathogens, it can also exist in chicken, cow and horse manure/urine. once they are broken down into useable parts for the plants then there shouldn't be an issue of bad bacteria. Even IF there was it could be only relevant to root crops like radish, carrot, potato. JMO |
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- Posted by carolyn137 z4/5 NY (My Page) on Sat, Jul 19, 14 at 17:31
| Seysonn,, I don't agree with what you said. Let me give a link that showed that Salmonella, which I referred to above, can directly get into the flesh of tomatoes. I also said it wouldbe rare for Salmonella to do so, but it serves as a protoptype for this. Bacteria, fungi and parasites and viruses and viroids cannot be taken up by the roots b'c they are too big to do so. Root hairs are only several microns wide while what I mentioned above as to bacteria and fungi are MANY microns wide, depends on thes pecific pathogen. The soilborne systemic diseases we know of,like Fusarium and Verticillium attach to specific attachement sites ON the exterior of root hairs but Salmonella and Campylobacter and the enterotoxigenic E.coli In the link below you'll also read about contamination of Mexican melons. I just got an e-mail yestrday, from George, a tomato friend,who lives near Rocky Ford, CO on the western slope which is reknowned for their melons and also peaches. And I know this b'c I spent many years in Denver and we looked forward to those making it over the Rockies to Eastern CO. Last year George sent me some Rocky Ford melons and they were great. But it's taken quite a few years to get them being popular again when several of the largest lplaces were shut down b'c of bacterial interior contamination of their melons. There were lawsuits and I think deaths as well,I didn't take the time to Google that event. Carolyn |
Here is a link that might be useful: Salmonella and tomatoes
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| Carolyn, you might have more info on Salmonella research, I have read episode on tomato outbreaks on the East coast vs West coast and how it was found that local bacteria on the West Paenibacillus, that provided anti salmonela effect on the West coast and spraying tomatoes with specific bacterias did provide same anti salmonella effect on east coast growing areas as well. So this brings lots of other questions not only about what pathogenic is but what soil has avail to stay healthy. |
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| I used my pee diluted with water... like 30 to 1... I forget now... used it on seedlings. They didn't die!!!! I need to burn a log or sticks here soon to try the ash and pee mix. In meanwhile I'm using tomato tone and Epsom salt. When I planted them I used calcium that I made at home that the roots could get the goods off of right away. Just don't use your own freaking recycled poo please!!!!! I'm afraid to buy at farmer markets now due to this absolutely INSANE fad going on right now. |
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