EG,

I think we will ultimately find it is a combination of BOTH the wicking basket size, plus the composition of the growing media. Case in point; look at the first picture in the Thread. That is my commercial EarthBox with just plain Miracle-Gro Potting Mix. The two wicking compartments in this product have a combined 8 square inches for the orifice. And look at the moisture meter, and better yet, the plants themselves and you can clearly see the Mix is too wet.

So, I think we have multiple variables here that need to be tuned in harmony, to get the ideal growing eco-system. In a way, that is the really neat thing about growing in containers - - you can blend the soil in ways you never could in that red Alabama clay, that I remember from living in Huntsville......

Raybo

Raybo - I agree that the wicking can be controlled by any of the 3 components (wicking basket, orifice in the aeration bench, soil composition). I just constructed 2 swc's from cat litter buckets, and have filled them with Miracle Gro potting mix. The wicking basket is made from the top portion of a 2 liter drink bottle with threaded end pointing down, and the only orifice that water can enter through is a 1/8" hole that has been drilled into the cap. I'm waiting for cole transplants to become available in the stores, and will run a trial with this setup.
I hope to make this work, because most people have access to the components used in it. In the end, it would be great if there were multiple, documented ways to achieve the same goal. I'll be watching your results with great interest, as I know that we will have success very soon.

EG

I see no mention of "fertilizer." Am I supposed to believe that no fertilizer was used?

To perform a meaningful experiment, you need to fertilize identically with a soluble fertilizer that includes calcium, magnesium, and sulfur such as a hydroponic fertilizer.

struw,

I don't know "what you are supposed to believe".

Also, it is my choice as to what ingredients I use in the experiments.

I post these for informational purposes only.

I am not trying to "Sell" you anything.

Having "defended" all of that, each of the containers received equal amounts of Lime and Tomato-tone fertilizer:

Just because I didn't describe every element I use to grow tomatoes (this Thread is ONLY about different ratios of container mixes, remember) doesn't mean I don't know the use of a fertilizer is required.

Now, let's get back to focusing on the REAL issue of the optimal container mix composition for SWC applications.

Raybo

I don't know "what you are supposed to believe".

Also, it is my choice as to what ingredients I use in the experiments.

I post these for informational purposes only.

I am not trying to "Sell" you anything.

Having "defended" all of that, each of the containers received equal amounts of Lime and Tomato-tone fertilizer:

If you don't know what I am supposed to believe, then I will tell you. I am supposed to believe that you posted useless information by not reporting the addition of lime and Tomato-tone fertilizer and how much.

Um...this thread is not about "how to grow tomatoes". It is only about coming up with the ideal control measures so the plant roots have an adequate, constant supply of water to drink from - while being grown in a self-watering container.

EG

exactly

Raybo-
Since you got me to recognize the "too wet" problem in my own containers, I've been thinking about the issue and wonder if you (or someone else if necessary) can help me understand why hydroponically grown tomatoes don't get too wet?
Also, re: your experiment, seems to me the wetness of the growing mix is the result of a number of factors:

1. The composition of the growing mix, i.e. how much water the growing mix is capable of holding and how fast it can disperse the water that is wicked into it throughout the growing mix.

2. The composition of the wicking material, i.e how fast/well it can wick water up into the growing mix.
   

3. How fast water is wicked up relative to how fast the water is dispersed and how fast the plant uses the water.

4. How much water is available to be wicked and on what schedule,i.e.if water is available continuously to be wicked, any mix will be wetter potentially than if water is available only periodically and the plant has the ability to naturally dry the mix to some degree before water next becomes available, perhaps similar to growing in-ground between rains and/or watering.

I'm thinking out loud here a bit, but it also seems
because of 3. that how wet the mix is also can depend on how big the plant is/where it is its growing cycle, i.e. smaller plant in the same mix/wicking combo, could have a wetter mix than a larger plant. I'm also wondering if variety may play a role since some varieties may use significantly more water than others?

Any thoughts on any of this, as I'm not sure at this point that composition of the growing mix and wicking material will control all of the variables to prevent wetness all of the time?

Raybo,
I like this thread a lot. You are doing an amazing experiment with a lot of thoughts, design and labor.
Since the water travel in your SWC is from capillary effect and you have too much water, anything can lower the capillary effect will reduce the water to travel. You want to lower the surface tension or surface energy.
1. reduce the contacting surface. Like the engineeredgarden said, wrap the side of the wicked basket or use a smaller basket thus less water will go to the system at a time.
2. Raise the gap between your water reservoir and your potting mix thus longer travel route by the water.
3. Filling in different material in the wicking basket than the main growing media. Since you want to reduce the water use more hydrophobic material like the perlite (the white stuff in the mix) can be use in the wicking basket.Of course you don't want to totally kill the capilary so I say Raybo you have to build 10 more EB to test the different ratio of materials in the basket!

4. The other way to lower the surface tension is to add some detergent in your reservoir so the water is not easy to travel up. But I don't know if the detergent will kill the plants or not or change the flavor.

But I do see you have a big backyard in some of your pictures I will say just rip those useless grass and plant in the land:) Can't beat the mother nature. (hurricane coming?)
Keep us updated.
newgardener in Tx who plans to build 2 EB for next spring

I like this thread a lot also. Please keep us informed of your test results. And please ignore those posters who have nothing to contribute to threads but their own rude stupidity.

Thanks all for the encouragement. I've spent literally hundreds of hours defining and implementing these trials, with the goal of openly sharing with you, the good news as well as the bad news that hopefully will aid in your own decisions on an optimum container mix.

I do wish I knew more about water Hydrology in areas of a "perched water table" and what causes this effect. I deal in 45 nanometer semiconductor technology on my Day Job, so the outdoor garden stuff is my "release" during the off-hours. While I would like to take a "scientific approach" to understanding all of the water / particle size / capillary action interactions, and "engineer" the best container mix combo, unfortunately, I will have to rely on what my "nose" is telling me, plus do a spread-spectrum of different ratios to sort of back into the ideal combination at the end of the trials.

In the meantime, ALL of the other variables remain PRECISE: water availability, Lime, Tomato-tone fertilizer. The ONLY variables between all of the trials are the container mix combinations as described in the initial Post. End.

Raybo

Hi Raybo,
I must have missed your final conclusions as to old tomato tone vs new. Please fill me in.
Larry

Larry,

The same kind of crap posting by Trolls happened on that Thread as well, with arm-chair "experts" claiming my Old vs. New Tomato-tone trials were "flawed", etc. Life is too short - - I know which one worked better for me, and which blend of Old with New will prolong my supply of the Old Tomato-tone.

I had documented the progression of growth with both fertilizers in pictures, but I'll be damned if I am going to post them and undergo the kind of "peer review" that I had to respond to and defend on that Thread.

If you or any interested (non-Troll) person wants to know my results, email me and I will give you a personal reply.

There is a blessing (and curse) to the Internet.

Raybo

I was browsing a gardening catalog today (Gardener's Supply) while my daughter bounced in her excersaucer and screamed at the dog and lo' 'en behold, I noticed something called "Self-Watering Container mix." Say what? Anyhow, it seems they sell a specially formulated mix for self-watering containers. It's general purpose, but may offer some clues. It contains: "sphagnum peat, perlite, vermiculite and limestone." Not much info about ratios. The catalog description indicates that it also contains compost and mycorrhizae. Not sure why it doesn't say this online.

Anyhow, it's a bit pricey, but might offer some ideas. Sorry I can't actually stick a moisture meter in some and compare it to MG and offer help. I feel bad just adding another 5 min. internet post with more questions, but such is life. I haven't even managed to get the two containers I had planned for Fall cleaned out. Work and the baby. Good stuff, but frustrating when tomatoes beckon!

Here is a link that might be useful: Self-watering container mix

structure,

Thanks for finding this. Here is the text of the Product:

The Perfect Soil Mix for Self-Watering Containers
Our field tests prove it: In self-watering planters, this lightweight mix works better than conventional potting soil. Its coarse, airy texture acts like a wick, carrying water from the planters reservoir to the root system. The result is more vigorous root growth, better aeration and less waterlogging. It's also an ideal mix for standard pots and planters. Contains sphagnum peat, perlite, vermiculite and limestone. 20-quart bag.

# Promotes vigorous root growth
# No water logging!
# Amazing wicking action

Also, at this link, there are 495 posts on user reviews of this SWC mix (see below).

They talk about a "light and airy" observation of the mix. I will order a bag and see what the ingredients label says, and try to replicate it as best I can.

Raybo

structure,

I just ordered 4 bags (80 Quarts) and at $40.00, yes it is expensive but if I can "clone" something akin to it, I will be a happy camper.

I saved $11.00 shipping charge by using the following coupon, if anyone else wants to trial some: MNA7085B

Raybo

A "symptom" that I observe is early leaf roll which I attribute to a too wet container mix:
Another "telltale" is premature yellowing of lower leaves and branches:

Why?

This year I tried my own version of an earthtainer, made out of an IKEA 15Gal SNÅLIS box, a small round nursery pot with some holes in it, and a pipe.

Filled with 4 parts Klasmann Deilmann Special Mix (black/white peat) to 1 part perlite... Plopped in my star Black Cherry plant, which was the biggest of all the seedlings I raised. Today it is a towering leggy monster, though it is steadily producing baby fruit. Have yet to taste any, but I started quite late... I'll let you know if it's watery...

All I have available to me here is peat, silica sand, perlite, and large chunks of pine bark, (1/3 in to half inch or so). Maybe you could try a mix with those ingredients?

Even if you find the ideal mix, I don't think I'll be able to replicate it here if it involves Turface, Sta-Green or Miracle grow... :(
Nonetheless, will watch this thread with great interest!

ruet,

Thanks for joining in on the conversation and posting your mix formula. If you indicate your Black Cherry is "leggy", this could be a signal of too much moisture retained in your mix.

Regarding Turface, it has a similar cousin called "Shop Floor" at all NAPA Auto Parts Stores. There, it is used to wick up spilled fluids like motor oil and brake fluid, etc. Also, anywhere they play baseball or other similar sports, Turface (or similar) is used on the grass and field areas, so look for supply stores that cater to sports fields.

Raybo

Oh...so it is similar to an oil absorbent, for floors. Kitty litter might be an alternate substitute, too....

Raybo - I remember justaguy doing some testing with oil absorbents, and the stuff eventually turned to mush. I take it the turface won't do that?

EG

Do NOT use Kitty Litter anyone!! There are other chemicals / "perfumes" which you DON'T want your vegetables growing in.

There was a test described by Al Tapla or justaguy on the Containers forum to put some in a cup, add a bit of water, then leave it overnight in the freezer. I recall that if it didn't break apart, it was good-to-go for use in the container mix.

If you don't need a lot, it is probably cheaper to buy this at a NAPA Auto-parts Store, rather than a 50 pound bag of Turface from an Irrigation / Field Sports store.

Raybo

Ray - have you tried using Lechuzapon in any of your tainers? I know it's expensive but I wonder how it would work. I have 2 lechuza planters and they work great. They are the small ones though

liz,

Never heard of the stuff, but I will Google it. For the trails, nothing is "too expensive" at this stage (just spent $40.00 last night to fill one 'Tainer with the Gardener's Supply SWC Mix to evaluate its performance).

I am starting to see some "bad" trends, as well as some "good" trends in some of the 'Tainers, so I'll post some status photos this weekend.

Raybo

Looks like a good experiment you got goin, Raybo. The yellowing of lower leaves can be normal, but when it''s not, I usually find some type of nutrient deficiency to be the cause. Keep us updated! My fall test crop of Cherry Tomatoes, who's seed came from a tomato I picked about 2 months ago are already huge & have been glowering for almost a week now! lol...I'm a tad excited. I didn't even think i'd get any maters from them this year. I'm hoping for some though, as a basic test of the seed. =) We'll see.

Later - Steve

Ray, have you tried ProMix BX? The "self watering container mix" found by Structure has the same main ingredients - except for some wetting agents. The folks over at the earthbox forum swear by it. That's why I mixed my own from bulk supplies.
OT question...what do you do with all of your tomatoes? I've never heard you mention before....

EG

EG,

I WISH I could get Pro-Mix BX out here in N. California - - but alas, no one stocks it for some reason (must be an East Coast centric Company, I assume). Can you recommend to me a "clone" of it that has worked for you?

Regarding the (excess) tomatoes, Dear Wife takes them for all her Church buddies on Sunday morning.....

Raybo

Ray, I mixed mine as 7 parts peat, 2 parts coarse grade vermiculite, and 1 part perlite. The vermiculite and perlite is purchased in 4 cu.ft. bags at my local farmer's cooperative for $13.99 each. My yield with this mix is really good, but you'll want to alter it for your trial. My 'tainers aren't covered with plastic mulch, and when it comes a good rain - the mix becomes really wet. The only way I can get the 6-7 moisture level reading, is when it hasn't rained for a while, and my reduced wicking baskets can actually meter the water from the reservoir as intended.

EG

EG,

What is the benefit of using Vermiculite? I had understood that was a "water magnet" which is fine for top watered containers - - but it is not appropriate for SWC applications. Having said that, I note that the Gardener's Supply SWC mix that I just ordered actually contains a percentage of Vermiculite.

Raybo

Raybo - the benefit of the vermiculite is moisture retention, and I'm sure it provides some little "nook and crannys" for some aeration, too. I know that this goes against your ideal thinking for a mix, but this is exactly the same proportions that the store-bought mix is comprised of. Since my mix in the 'tainers has settled somewhat, i'll probably amend each one with perlite only next year.
I do, however, feel that the mix could be negatively altered to the point that the wicking properties will not allow capillary action to reach the upper portion of the 'tainer, which in my mind is something you will not want to do. Doing so, would probably make the plant roots dive straight to the wicking basket - which the vermiculite helps to eliminate - as it is scattered throughout the mass. Lots of things to think about, isn't it? Ha!
One thing i'll say about mixing it as I have done - it is definitely one of the most inexpensive ways to fill several earthtainers. (probably half the cost of using MG potting mix)

EG

EG,

I really want to try to stay with a "main ingredient" like Sta-Green Potting Mix as the "foundation", then a Perlite addition as the second main ingredient (proportion TBD), then ideally a third ingredient to round out the mix.

Going to four ingredients will be like sending folks on a Snipe Hunt to source all of these components - - I would rather avoid the nasty emails I'd surely get on the EarthTainer.org Website.

While I see the "benefits" of vermiculite, my "nose" is telling me for a SWC application to avoid it, and use Turface, or bark fines instead. The SWC mix from Gardener's Supply should arrive Sept 9 according to the FedEx tracking number, and I have a Goose Creek and Cuostralee plant lined up for 'Tainer # 16 trials.

Raybo

Hi-Raybo, I think you will find that all your damp and wicking problems will be solved by the addition of one third of Coir fibre (coconut fibre) pronounced-Qwah.to all your compost mixes.
It will then provide more air in the mix and stops all surface dampness of compost with much reduced diseases of young plants and seedlings and lower leaf problems,root rot and a host of other things too, best stuff ever for compost, gorgeous for incorporating in seed mixes for germinating seeds as you get no damping off at all. and it is quite cheap to buy, in blocks or loose.

www.fertilefibre.com

mickyfinn, I tried the coconut fibre mixed in with my regular potting soil because I did like the way it seemed to help retain moisture without staying wet. But either I did it wrong or maybe it's just me because the stuff I have is aweful! If it does dry out it's somewhat hard and very difficult to get the soil re-hydrated. I usually have to use something pointy to loosen the soil then leave the pot soaking in water until the coconut fibre actually starts absorbing the water again.

Like I said, maybe it was just me but I hate the stuff....lol

EG: I must have seen your post last April on your percentages of ingredients because I used the EXACT same proportion of those same ingredients. It was a bit of a man hunt to find the ingredients in bulk, but I did in Lexington, KY. I was thinking the same thing... amend in more perlite next growing season. Please let me know how much you think should be added to each 30gallon EarthTainer. We can compare notes.

Ray, I'll shoot you an email. I really am curious what proportion of old Tomato-Tone + New Tomato-Tone is most beneficial. I am going to do the same mixing thing next year to prolong the old stuff which doesn't have a shelf life like the new kind with the Biotone ingredients.
Oh is Turface the same thing as 'Oil Dri' that is sold at Sams Club? It's less than $5 for a 4cuft bag (like 40 or 50 lbs). I have been mixing that with EG's homebrew pro-mix for house plants and they seem to like it.

Ray - I'm not sure where you got the idea of a 4 part recipe, as I only mentioned 3. Of the three ingredients, the coarse vermiculite can be a challenge to find, as stated by Bencjedi....I just noticed that you have posted your latest revision to the earthtainer, and that you are recommending ProMix BX as one of the growing mediums to fill it with. This was strange to me, because I don't recall seeing it on your list of materials currently being tried. With all due respect, I really feel that revision 1.9 will be in the works soon - which will address reducing the wicking basket even further (to a point that you can't imagine). These thoughts are based on my own experiments with water movement through various sized orifices, and my moisture readings collected throughout the year. I hope that this response is well with you, as I have no intentions of criticising anyone - or their ideas. I am only contributing to the experiment, so that we may make your ecosystem even better. :-)

Bencjedi - I will probably go with 6-2-2, instead of 7-2-1 next year, but only to help the water drain from the mix when it rains. A reduction of effective surface area in the wicking basket is the key to controlling the moisture content, in my opinion. (and this is only an opinion)

EG

Only thing EG is that I don't want to toss out the mix I've already made in all my ETs. I had intended to use them another year (or indefinitely). :)
So I may just "rough it" and add like 2 gallons of perlite to each ET and see what happens. I noticed my tomato plants degrade significantly after we had big rain (leaves yellowed, stems died, etc).

EG,

I wasn't attributing the 4-part mix composition to you. Just something that is possible at the end of the trials as to which mix combo worked best for me. I would really hate to have to tell people that they needed to run around and find FOUR ingredients to make their 'Tainer mix. I truly hope a "3-Part Harmony" will be the winner!!

To be sure, there WILL be a Rev 1.9 at some point in time, and it will likely include a shrinking of the wicking basket orifice - - but at the moment, the 12 square inch is working fine by all reports that I have, and I would never want to scale it down arbitrarily and have people build their 'Tainers based on a dimension that I had not verified worked during at least one growing cycle (fortunately, we have 3 per Year here in N. California). But having said that, I am going to try a few 'Tainers experimenting with an 8 square inch orifice in the near future.

I do want to avoid too many variables at the same time, so that is why I want to concentrate on getting the moisture "management" in to the Moist range as my first priority. When I get that optimized, I will then focus on fine-tuning the wicking orifice.

I am getting ahead of myself, but my next thoughts are on getting rid of the full water reservoir altogether, and with the AWS, feed the water directly into the wicking basket that is situated in a small sump, like a pie tin...... So many thoughts - - so little time.

EG, your ideas and critiques are most welcome at all times. I have learned much from Earl, and others in the journey to develop the most optimal SWC system possible.

Raybo

bencjedi - I, too - will be using the same mix next year, but will add more perlite to the mix. I think the vermiculite will be fine, but the particle size will probably deteriorate to a smaller grade. I'll just have to see what it looks like after being through one complete growing cycle.

Ray - That sounds good...i'll do some more trials with the orifice size hopefully in another week, and that way we can have more information to analyze. The omission of the reservoir altogether is a great idea, and would certainly make the earthtainer much lighter! Great idea....I can't wait to see what you put together. I'll be out of pocket for a few days (family vacation), but will be back in touch toward the middle of next week.

EG

Removing the reservoir forces one to use municipal water that costs money (or electricity if you have a well and pump your own). I fill my reservoirs with sterile condensate drip water that comes from the HVAC units as well as my dehumidifier in the basement. If that's not enough, I start emptying from either of my four 55gallon rain barrels. I've not had to the use rain barrels much for my EarthTainers. I'm looking forward to seeing what the inside looks like after my tomatoes are spent production for this year. I've got a great deal of canning to do right now. :)

EG and Ben,

I have been able to get a .pdf of the Pro-Mix BX Mycorise, and read that the Mix is made up of 82.5% Sphagnum Peat Moss, 12.5% Perlite, 5% Vermiculite, with trace amounts of Calcitic Limestone and Dolomitic Limestone. In addition, they add in a Wetting Agent, Micronutrients, and Mycroise PRO innoculant.

The Vermiculite component is a small percentage of the total Mix (1 part out of 20). When re-using it in Year 2, 3, etc. I would beef it up with additional Perlite as you suggest, to mitigate the compaction of the Sphagnum Peat Moss. Even when using it for the first time, for a SWC I would add in more Perlite to have the combined Perlite amount at about 20% (not 12.5%) of the total composition.

I am about to fill another trial 'Tainer today with a 3:1:1 mix of Sta-Green, Perlite, and Turface, then do the same ratio with Sta-Green, Perlite, and Decorative Bark Fines.

I'll post some update photos later today.

Raybo

Don't get me wrong, I love the 'tainers, but I think removing the reservoir altogether and going to the modified Earthbox AWS system starts to get into complicated territory for the casual home gardener. The supplies for the 'tainers themselves already aren't cheap, then add to that the cost of purchasing a ready made product and modifying it, and things start to get hairy - for me anyway. If the goal is to make them easily replicable by most anyone, just as the goal is to make sure that the potting mix ingredients are available to everyone, doing away with the easy reservoir and adding in more bells and whistles seems to be moving away from that.

Or maybe I'm just too clueless to figure out how to modify the AWS system. I took one look at the discussions going on about them and my eyes just glazed over. I don't think everyone has access to the resources necessary in order to use those systems though, so I'd probably have to skip over any design revisions including them, and just modify my potting mix, while hoping for the best.

One thing I also tested this season.. instead of using all 30gallon Sterlite totes I made several nested 5-gallon bucket EarthTainers. I used really small wicking baskets (like 3" diameter) and found them very fast and easy to construct (compared to the tote fabrication). They 'drank' from their reservoir very quickly, but the tomatoes have produced just as well (daily fill of ET required). I used an external cage built out of old sunflower stalks from last year and twine. The construction was significantly less expensive, much faster to fabricate, less mix required and I used the lids with a small hole for the plant.. which limited evaporation and make the system a bit more closed. I can fit more plants in the same space as the larger brother ETs, which is a bonus for my yard. I actually shot some video constructing it, but have not had a chance to edit it and throw it up online. One of these days I may get to it.

spaghetina,

Not to worry!! I will never abandon the current design of the EarthTainer (see the updated Guide at the link below).

All I am toying with is a design in my mind that I will call the "SuperTainer" (tm), that for those who want the ultimate in water flow through the system using an AWS, this additional design will be made available later this year (after I have built a few and field tested myself).

Raybo

Just a brief photo update. Most of the plants are adding about one inch per day in our warm late Summer weather. For reference, here is a photo taken 10 days ago on Aug 27:

And again today Sept 6:

{{gwi:1381172}}

Here is a pair of Celebrity planted July 21, photo taken today Sept 6. The one on the left is in a 4:1 ratio of Miracle-Gro and Perlite. The Celebrity on the right is in a 3:1 ratio of Miracle-Gro and Cactus Mix:

As you can see, the bottom leaves and branches on the right are wilting at a greater rate than the one in 4:1 Miracle-Gro and Perlite mix on the left.

The Brandywine plant put in on August 14 in a 3:1 mix of Sta-Green and Cactus Mix is showing signs of obvious stress. I attribute this to a too Wet habitat:

{{gwi:38096}}

Here is a promising mix of 3:1:1 Sta-Green, Perlite, and Turface of 2 Cherokee Purples that were planted on August 3, taken on August 25:

Here is the same pair taken on Sept 6:

Some minor leaf roll, but no yellowing as seen on the adjacent Brandywine plant.

What I am looking for is NOT the plant that grows the most in a "competition", but I am seeking the combo mix that produces a "Christmas Tree" type of top to bottom green and healthy plant.

Stay tuned...

Raybo

That last picture looks very promising. I do have a few questions tho. Until this year I have not really paid attention to the different types of tomatoes, just grabbed something and planted it. So I am wondering - do ALL tomatoes react the same to too much water? I mean, is one more fussy than another? What I mean is would a Cherokee Purple tolerate a little more stress without showing signs as opposed to a Brandywine?

rocky,

I am absolutely certain that different varieties tolerate more, or less moisture. While I would have liked to get 32 plants of exactly the same variety, I was lucky to score 8 Celebrities, 6 Champions, 7 Cherokee Purple, 3 NARX, and assorted others this late in the Season.

At least with the Celebrity, Champion, and Cherokee Purples I am able to spread the different mix and additive ingredients over a good cross-section of the varieties.

Raybo

Rocky- I am afraid that you did not get the best use out of the Coir Fibre by mixing it with soil,

It is a near perfect mix if you only blend it in with peat based compost or ground bark mixes, and balances perfectly with Pearlite and similar substances, the roots are much healthier as a result of a better aireated compost, less disease, and moisture control is at it's best with no extra damp soggy areas, it keeps the compost very sweet and clean and very even moisture content throughout the whole compost.

I've been in dialog with the folks who make the Pro-Mix series. There are actually 3 different variants of Pro-Mix available. Note the differing percentages of Perlite. My contact says the HP version is most popular in the West, and for some reason, the BX (with greater wicking) is more popular in the East. Go figure!!

* PRO-MIX BX - GENERAL PURPOSE Growing Medium
82.5 % PEAT MOSS * 12.5 % PERLITE * 5 % VERMICULITE

* PRO-MIX HP - HIGH-POROSITY Growing Medium
73% PEAT MOSS * 27 % PERLITE

* PRO-MIX HPLOP - 15% AGGREGATE Growing Medium
85 % PEAT MOSS * 15% PERLITE

Raybo

Raybo - that ProMix HP looks very promising for a trial. Luckily, I still have alot of perlite in surplus, and will amend with it next year.

EG

Received my 4 bags today of 80 Quarts total, which will just about fill one EarthTainer.

{{gwi:46723}}

This is an absolutely beautiful mix. Reminds me of sleeping on a Goose-down pillow.

{{gwi:46724}}

Surprisingly (or maybe not so) the listing of Ingredients is EXACTLY the same as Pro-Mix BX:

{{gwi:46725}}

While the percentages of each are not specified, it does resemble the BX formulation as in my previous post. As an effort to get 2 trials out of this $43 worth of mix, I used the "stock" mix in the right half of the 'Tainer, and did a blend of the Gardener's Supply Mix, Bark Fines, and Perlite in a 4:2:1 ratio (on the left):

{{gwi:46726}}

I have a bale of Pro-Mix BX on order, so hopefully soon, I will be able to add several more trial combo mixes into the fray....

Raybo

Great thread! Something I was planning on doing for my containerized tomatoes next season (I balcony garden) is mixing some coconut husk chips (1/4 to 1/2 inch chips, not coir) in with my potting mix as the chips retain a good amount of water AND air. I saw that someone suggest coconut coir (which is shredded coconut husk fiber, not chips) in their mix yet I have never used this product and can only suggest using actual chunks of coconut husks. I admit that I am a novice when it comes to tomatoes but for my containerized citrus trees I use a 4:1 ratio of CHC and peat and it works amazingly. For my first Meyer Lemon tree I simply potted in Miracle Gro for cactus and citrus and within a month or two all of the leaves on my tree had dropped and it appeared to be dead. I decided to repot it and the mix smelled aweful and was still wet after not being watered for about 3 weeks. I repotted it in the 4CHC:1peat mix and within a month or two it started to bud again and rebounded. The first ingredient in Miracle Gro for cactus and citrus is peat which holds entirely too much moisture for citrus in a container (at least for it to be the number one ingredient). I'd bet that just about any mix that has peat as the number one ingredient for growing nearly anything in a container will eventually become problematic because of a lack of oxygen to the roots of the plant. When I bought CHCs at the begining of the year I got a 3 cubic foot bale (after being dried and compressed) and even after potting my 15 or so citrus varieties I still have about 2.5 cubic feet that is just taking up space in my storage unit. Depending on what potting mix I buy for my containerized veggies next year I would like to mix at least 1 or 2 parts CHCs and see how how the plants respond. CHCs expand and contract just like a sponge (holding a great amount of water and more importantly air) and also takes forever to breakdown (literally years which is what makes it great for citrus). Here is a link on CHC usage and I used the same supplier they suggest (Crystal Company) as they wash their product 3 times which removes a good amount of salt buildup that may exist. I am not sure if any of my information is useful for tomato growers but if you have never used CHCs before for anything I would suggest giving some a shot (get a citrus tree also!). Great posts folks!
Joe