Sungold has many more than just two parental inputs and folks saving seed from the hybrid, F2 seeds, or from F2 volunteer plants,often get red fruited plants, which I'm not going to discuss. Just too complicated and no confirmation.

What you have is an F2 plant, save seeds,grow it out next year,hopefully growing more than one plant to look for genetic segregation,, and see what you get.

Carolyn

does that mean I got lucky and have a 2nd generation Sungold

Sorry no such luck. :) Even if it actually had only 2 parents.

Dave

Here is a couple pictures:

I'll see how they taste and try to save and plant a large number next year if they are good.

CH

What is meant when people here say that sungold has more than two parents? In aggregate, as a hybrid, I thought sungold was a cross between two distinct, true-breeding varieties.

At the individual level, tomato seeds are produced by normal sexual reproduction, are they not? So that there are two (or sometimes 1) individual genomes that combine to make the individual?

What am I missing?

--McKenzie

What you are missing is the following and there are other threads that explain this as well, I know since I posted in many of them.LOL

The earliest hybrids such as Big Boy and BEtter Boy and Ramapo, for instance. do to havec just two parents, and they are OP's that are known to some.

But more modern hybrids are far more complex

There are two breeding lines,lets call them A and B. Start line A with usually a breeding acession,,OPbut not a known variety,breed in perhaps the uniform ripening gene,maybe highs solids maybe some disease tolerance genes. Take that one and breed in other genes,take that one, etc. until you get to the final 4th one in that line A.

Do the same for line B.

Then use the last OP in each breeding lines A and B to create the F1 hybrid.

There can be up to four genetic imputs in each line.

Fo rmany years this final cross had to be done by lots of hard labor, removing the male parts of the blossoms so no self pollenization could occur.

But these days males steriles are created so when placing the desired pollen in place on the stigma all is good.

Carolyn

Interesting Carolyn!

I'll try to do some more reading on the breeding so I understand more clearly. I'll just keep planting seeds of this plant and it's offspring to see what the heck I get. I like to tinker and experiment and I certainly have enough room to sow some extra plants each season.

CH

Coconut, I have had the same thing happen to me. I had several volunteers come up and deliver orange fruit. I selected several fruit and saved seeds, and then planted them each year hoping to "get lucky". I am at the fifth generation on this effort and the only thing I have noticed is that last year's crop seemed to lack on the taste. This year has been a total disaster for me with cattle and deer all but destroying my entire 110' by 40' garden.

There have been many who tried to find an "OP" version that could repeat the taste and some have had limited success, but all have failed to duplicate the original. Many who have tried are highly experienced breeders at the international level. Yes, it's been a worldwide effort.

But, I don't mean to frustrate your efforts. I look at my efforts as comparable to the lottery. You know - you can't win if you don't play, and, if you don't play, you can't win.

So, my advice would be to do exactly what you said you wanted to do. Who knows?? Good ol' Mama Nature might just do her thing and let you be the one to find the OP Sungold. You just might just be the one to "win the Sungold tomato lottery".

Ted

This post was edited by containerted on Thu, Aug 8, 13 at 18:17

Thanks Ted, I will!

I also wonder, are the Genes for the sungold F1 hybrid still in my seed, but just going through some form of dominant recessive gene struggle?

My great grandfather had red hair, none of his children did and non of their children did, However, one of my relatives of the same generation as Me, or my great grandfathers other great grandson, has red hair just like he did.

I bring this up because I wonder if it's possible that even if I get a year with orange fruits but not the same taste, might the taste show back up in a later generation? An etc... for any other sungold trait that may have been lost for one or two generations.

CH

Carolyn, thanks that is very interesting! Such a lot of work.

--McKenzie

My take on the hybridizing is just like breeding in the mammals kingdom. There is the well known Law of heredity and also Law of Statistical Probability. They go hand in hand an decide the next out come.

By hybridizing one is not flushing out all the genetic background; They are there weakened and in hiding.

So here is what I am saying; By the law of Heredity and by the laws of probability, you might plant seeds from an F1 and/or F2 fruit and get exactly like that one, Though that probability might be slim but nevertheless it is possible.

I have to ask about this sometime from Marylin Vos Savant, the genius. hehe

Sungold has many more than just two parental inputs
I beg to differ. A tomato or pepper or any other sexually-produced fertile "seed" can have only 2 parents. Having more than 2 is akin to saying that your maternal and paternal grandparents and their spouses are also your parents. If by "parental inputs" ancestors are included, OK. But they did not directly contribute the cells that contained the genetic info that defined the new zygote.

Reggie

So you are saying there is no such thing as an ancestral line, no contribution by the grandparents to the grandchild? Sorry that won't fly genetically speaking. Too much DNA mapping is now possible in both humans and many plants.

My grandfathers may not have directly contributed the sperm but they sure contributed the DNA, the genetic traits that made up that cell or my father would not have been able to pass it on to me.

Perhaps you are hung up on the word "parent" and its usual definition? Rather think of it in terms of what often happens with in vitro fertilization.

Nevertheless many modern tomato varieties have two or more well documented and patented parental lines. And without that entire line the variety cannot be duplicated.

Dave

Perhaps you are hung up on the word "parent" and its usual definition? Rather think of it in terms of what often happens with in vitro fertilization.
My statement stands as written. A fertile tomato seed is "created" by 2 (and only 2) parents. In IVF, there must only be 2 parents as well. Crossing, back-crossing, re-back-crossing, subsequent crossing with other varietie(s), etc. to generate a desired hybrid phenotype absolutely is done with 2 parents at each step in the development. This is true regardless of the documenting of ancestral inputs.

Reggie

I don't know much about producing hybrid plants, but for a sexual organism such as a tomato plant, I am fairly confident that it is biologically impossible to have more than two parents (in the strict sense of the word), unless some form of gene splicing is involved. As "parent" is a well defined term, I don't think it should be bent to include other ancestors.

Probably there is not much to be gained by hashing it out and maybe even "winning" the argument, but I do want to show some solidarity with Reggie.

--McKenzie

@ McKenzie

It can be true that a hybrid tomato has just two immediate parents. But then each of those paents may have had two parent. So THE SEED in question can have two parents and 4 grandparents. So any of those 6 parents can influence the new plant by certain probability. May be mothers have more weight than fathers in this case or vice versa. I do not know.

Just a quick update. Fruit are ripening now, (And splitting, just like sun gold!) it's hard to tell if they taste exactly like sungold since it's been almost a year since I have had one, but they taste good, and seem to taste like sungold. Maybe I can find some at a farmers market to try as a comparison. Either way I'll plant a bunch and see if I can stabilize the line.

CH

reginald_25,

I think you have read something into Carolyn's statements that was NOT in them.

"Sungold has many more than just two parental inputs"

"Then use the last OP in each breeding lines A and B to create the F1 hybrid. "

and

"There can be up to four genetic imputs in each line."

All four of my grandparents had "parental inputs" into what I became. None of them were my parents. Carolyn did not say that sungold had more than two parents, just that there were more than two tomatoes (like early hybrids) that contributed genetically to the resulting variety.

Betsy

I think it's fair to say that basically , any creature, tomato based or otherwise had an "innumerable" number of parental inputs, all the way back to the beginning of life on this planet.

There was a little clarification that needed to be made because I too thought maybe she was implying that in one generation, more than two parental inputs were used, this is certainly possible in science.

I have still not done my reading into the details behind Tomato hybridization, so I have nothing further to add at the moment, but I just wanted to say, I think the question was valid.

I still don't follow the "up to four genetic inputs in each line" because what would limit it to four, but again, I have some reading to do before asking too many more questions.

CH

Finally, I too have been viewing some tomatoes developing on my Sungold volunteers. The plants are matching last year's height around 6 feet at this point but certainly not last year's fruit production. Whatever it is, I'll let it continue. Also found a hitchhiker on it the other day. Yup, a wasp infested hornworm so I let it be as a warning to others. No mates after a thorough search. Of what moth/butterfly are they part of the life cycle?

Be well people,

elliot

does that mean I got lucky and have a 2nd generation Sungold
Sorry no such luck. :) Even if it actually had only 2 parents
Actually this is quite possible and, in fact, ordained with a sufficient number of grow-outs at F2. However, if it should be perhaps one in 64 plants, much effort is expended to do this. Moreover, it would be the same thing at "F3" on the "F2" success because the "F2" would essentially be an F1 for the significant genetic character traits that made SunGold SunGold. And you would essentially be back to ground zero in effots to "reproduce" SunGold.
In other words, this is not possible (in a practical sense) unless your have instances of each SunGold parent OR a propagative reproduction of the plant that was created by its male and female components (parents).

Reggie

Hey, Betsy, looking back, you are right about what Carolyn said . The only person who said "two parents" was Dave, and it was in a hypothetical: "Even if it actually had only 2 parents." Anyway, I apologize for derailing the main point of this thread which is certainly interesting.

Reproduction in the plant world is very interesting, what with shoots, cuttings, bulbs, self-pollinated fruit, crossings, etc.

--McKenzie

If we accept the OP's statement as facts(Volunteer Sungold), then look at the picture of the plant with ripe fruits, that looks like Sungold, tastes like sungold , then it is no doubt a SUNGOLD.

This may defy the scientific analysis, but it is a living example, not bunch of theories. Even scientifically this is PROBABLE.

At some point certain genetic traits might become dominant . and that is how a variety becomes stable, whether it has been hybridized by man(Radiator Charlie) or the other hands of the mother nature.

At some point certain genetic traits might become dominant . and that is how a variety becomes stable, whether it has been hybridized by man(Radiator Charlie) or the other hands of the mother nature.Sorry, that statement is largely voodoo science, which is not really scientific at all.

Reggie

Is the following statement true scientifically?

A number of offspring from a self pollinating Hybrid, will bear the exact traits of the parent plant.

And if the answer to that question is yes, then is also the following scientifically true?

As each successive generation passes, the higher the percentage of offspring will bear the exact traits of the original parent plant.

If someone could boil those two things down I think I might be able to grasp this a little better.

CH

Is the following statement true scientifically?
A number of offspring from a self pollinating Hybrid, will bear the exact traits of the parent plant.

And if the answer to that question is yes, then is also the following scientifically true?

As each successive generation passes, the higher the percentage of offspring will bear the exact traits of the original parent plant.

If someone could boil those two things down I think I might be able to grasp this a little better

Now assuming all self-pollination, as far as I can reckon the first statement is true. However, the next argument is decidedly not true. What occurs at successive generations of self-pollination is a bias towards generating homozygous offspring for traits which will repeat with self-pollination. The hybrid typically has heterozygous genetic coding for some of its important traits and thus when these are rendered homozygous, they cannot revert back to the genetic coding of the hybrid assuming they self-pollinate. So with total randomness and self-pollination, eventually nearly all of the heterozygous hybrid characteristics are lost in the subsequent generations. At this point, the plant's offspring is NOT a hybrid but will have some individual homozygous types that display a potentially large array of disparity compared to that of their gr-gr-gr-gr-gr, etc. grandparents (the original hybrid). Some will be similar and some will be not similar compared to the hybrid ancestor and many will not be similar to their cousins. Actual populations of replicas of the ancestor hybrid will go bye-bye very fast with every successive generation upon selfing, (depending upon how many traits are involved in the hybrid's definition).

Reggie

I just wonder how a man with no schooling at all, like Radiator Charlies developed, hybridized and stablized a variety in a few short years ?
But Those "GENIUS" people in Japan keep making, F1, F2, .. F infinity. haha

"But Those "GENIUS" people in Japan keep making, F1, F2, .. F infinity."

No, they are breeding for F1 only. They don't want F2 or later generations. You don't ever see commercial hybrid seeds labled F2 or later.

"I just wonder how a man with no schooling at all, like Radiator Charlies developed, hybridized and stablized a variety in a few short years ?"

M. C. Byles (Radator Charlie) spent 7 years growing out his selections of Mortgage Lifter until he felt it was a stable selection. Mortgage Lifter Story on NPR Living on Earth

When dehybridizing a tomato, one should plant as large a group of F2 and subsequent generations as possible and select from plants that most resemble the results you want, save seeds from several and repeat until you have a stable selection, generally at F7 or later.

Keith Muller's site has an excellent tutorial on tomato genetics.

Betsy

Here is a link that might be useful: Tomato Gene Basics