Any pictures ? It might be helpful to get help.

Molds in generally thrive in moist/wet/humid environment where there is little or no air movement. How is your climate like ? How far up have you defoliated ? How your plants are supported ? how much sun they are getting ?

So from your description I gather :

-- High Humidity
-- lots of rain
-- Not enough sun (How many Hours ?)
-- Limited space : Doe that mean the plants are jammed?

All above conditions are favorable for mold growth. Your best bet is to keep them dry as much as possible. Prune to facilitate air flow. Spray with fungicides regularly.
I lost some of my plants to mold last September. This year I will be more vigilant ; will Prune and spray systematically. Cannot stop the rain and cannot force the Sun to shine !!!

"Any pictures ?"

Hi seysonn
Thanks. You have no idea how helpful so far. You asked for a picture, I thought I had nothing to photograph. I went with the camera and found about 6 new leaflets with lesions and there is nothing to see since I am removing anything suspicious when it is barely faintly noticeable.

These plants were supposed to be stock for rooting my fall crop quickly, but getting tomatoes on them now and unfounded worrying about diseases from cuttings had me start some seeds and lose a month and those're the seedlings still inside for 3 weeks to be xplanted as the major crop in the 10x12 DIY hoop house.

Now I actually did something stupid (sarcasm) and looked at the ground. You wanted a picture, that was my question about plastic, etc. … had a cow. This is not a picture of tomatoes. I just snapped some weeds around:

OK, I walk over weeds all day like a clueless scientist caring for tomatoes all the while step on and track this crap around? It is Florida pusley weed (aka rough Mexican clover), which is everywhere and guess what, it's close to the Solanales type plants. Don't rub it in.

My yard (more like plot) including the perimeter of the hoop house is loaded with this weed which I knowingly allowed to multiply since it had a super cooling effect (crucial for summer growing in my case to make tomatoes' environment comfortable) ground covering and really a pollinator magnet.

Now I must eradicate it and in the process bath myself in leaf mold spores. And I have to do it this ^&$&$###! instant. I'm depressed about it as I take my project very seriously and really don't know if I'm gonna be able to climb out of this hole. Thanks for asking for the photo.

I have to xplant in about 3 weeks and I now am on my way out to become PigPen of the Peanuts gang as I pull bushels of these infected weeds which were inoculating my plants. I don’t know what I’m going to do but I’m wondering if I should sit it out on the bench for fall, but think these spores are going to be around a lot longer than that. The theory would be to interrupt the cycle of the mold instead of just perpetuating it with a fresh hoop house filled with new tomato plants.

Strange but true we are on opposite ends of the country as it gets and both have this as a problem.

PC

PupillaCharites, I have no advice to offer but am wondering what you are calling leaf mold? those brown blotches like EB or discolored like some virus patches?

Hi lindalana

Without having had cultures made of this stuff I can't speak with 100% certainty, but as far as I am concerned it is a smoking gun. Here is my interpretation The leaf mold colonizes the leaves of the Florida Pusley weed, which is a thick leaf. It initially appears as a chorotic pale yellow green spot on the upper part of the weed. As it progresses on the weed, which has a thicker meatier leaf than tomato, it becomes visible on the underside. As soon as it penetrates the entire thickness of the leaf, there is a subtle amount of gray/blue spores showing on the underside and everything downstream in the leaf begins to wither and creates the EB-like necrotic decay starting from the initial spot of infection the downstream end of the leaf. It is slow to spread in the weed.

On the tomato, it begins much more decisively and within 24 hours of starting by pale yellow green spots with diffuse edges, it penetrates the entire thickness under the spot and forms a large deposit of noticeable spores. If conditions are favorable to the mold, it spreads very quickly and the entire leaf loses turgidity and withers at that point into a soft, mummified/desiccated shrunken necrotic cottony like texture which is probably highly concentrated in spores as there is no leaf to eat any more so that seems like the next step in the life cycle.

The tomato mold causing the leaf mold (aka leaf spot) is Fulvia fulva and this fits it to a "T", and the temperatures have dropped into the 80’s now. My assumptions are that the Florida Pusley acts as a vector and creates a mini greenhouse under its dense foliage which can be multilevel, not just paved. However, there is no guarantee that this is the same species and that another species of the same genus isn't contagious to tomatoes. The incubation time from inoculation to large lesion of F. fulva can be up to 10 days after entering into the leaf stomata (so I need to wait 10 days to get an idea where I stand after the weeding. The weed in my plot was seemingly healthy and within a very short time visually succumbed completely to the mold's infection and was re-infecting my tomato plants for a few days as I was thinking I was plucking it from the tomato plants and wondering how about the odd very disparate re-infection pattern, here, there and on the other side. Let me just note that this is a theory about the sharing of the mold and life cycle based solely on my own very strong circumstantial observations.

In case you are interest more in the weed, scabra is labeled as a bad weed pest in Latin America which according to Bayer causes chlorosis in crops, I believe corn and tomatoes, and I suspect it is due to being a carrier of Fulvia or Curvularia two synonymous names for the genus of Fulvia fulva, as the weed is known to be susceptible to Curvularia.

Yes, I try to learn from my errors ;-( I put all this information in case anyone runs across this or is researching the weed and its relationship to tomato leaf spot mold, and also to caution anyone who as I was does not know how invasive this weed can be, and potentially damaging despite its very pretty appearance which had me as a fan ... before. Florida Pusley (Richardia scabra) is also known as Rough Mexican Clover, but in Mexico, one common name for it is golondrina. Factoid: One translation of golondrina is swallow (bird). The plant is used for erosion control in some coffee cultivation, but for corn it is considered a pest that reduces yield. The Florida Pusley is a common weed in the entire southeastern US, and likely would grow in humid disturbed farmland in Illinois given the chance, too.
PC
PS Now what did you ask? ;-)

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Tue, Sep 2, 14 at 3:08

Thanks!!!! Cool info! I am not sure I have seen the weed here in Il, it seems to be exceptionally healthy in my veggie plot but I sure seen similar chlorotic patches and brown burning on some perennials. Am currently working with aerated compost tea, find all this fascinating stuff!

Hi lindalana, I'm happy you find this as exciting as I do :-P

I kept thinking there should be more information on this stuff on the Internet but could find nothing useful and just wondered if it was one of those things everyone is born knowing LOL and doesn't have to write about.

The USDA plant maps show Florida pusley found Indiana, but not yet Illinois, but I think it will. It propagates by seed. Now there are no more bees and other pollinators around. Stark difference from when I had the Pusley just a day ago, the yard was teaming with blue and green iridescent bees all over it, a few honey bees and carpenter bees and the typical crew.

Unfortunately I burned my plants with a little too concentrated copper sulfate. I used a quarter of a percent of copper metal (1% of CuSO4*5H20 by weight) and I'd guess about 2-3 grams of the dissolved blue stone fell per actual medium plant and the rest of the spray settled on the ground below where infected Florida pusley used to be, or it could have just been applied in too much heat and Sun as the morning had dragged. I wonder if it is good to chase after invisible demons and can cause more trouble than help, but when I don't it’s the other way around :-(.

Next time I will make half that strength in copper and use some slaked lime or ammonium carbonate if I dig some up, to add to it, but there was no time to fuss with that. The rain came and promptly washed it off so I'm getting a little ambivalent about it, plus I really dislike copper based fungicides. This, as I see some nice tomatoes that had begun to pick up steam, the application even scared their milky picture-perfect complexion and the plants are probably more vulnerable than ever to infection.

If you ever get that aerated compost tea mastered tell me about it. It's something I've wanted to try!

Cheers
PC

I think I would find it very challenging to garden in any warmer climate than I am now... I am already tired and you have another season just starting...
It sounds like you are grower on larger scale too? What other stuff do you use besides copper? Method of choice?
Recently I was looking into using peroxide and distilled vinegar which is watered down home version of Oxidate? Am thinking it is well worth investigating.

It sounds like you are grower on larger scale too? What other stuff do you use besides copper?

Ha! Thanks ;-) Here’s my blurb: Since I am on a limited budget I mix all of my fertilizer (chemisty background) and btw might have accidentally worked at a seed company once or twice, but that’s ancient history now. First time I’ve had an opportunity to grow my tomatoes (or anything, used to travel a lot) and have found this forum so inspiring and motivating, after a traumatic four years of dedication to a loved one in a agonizing terminal situation.

I only have an 8x8 foot wood skeleton & twine support for messing around,and am about a week from finishing my DIY hoop house that's flimsy but built on passion more than a solid foundation (yes, I'll get clips one of these days). It is 10x12 feet and 9.5 feet high LOL, and I expect to learn more in the school of hard knocks when it ends up in some else's back yard maybe somewhere in Kansas, but my budget for it all is under $200. This week I am figuring out what support system I want, well, honestly I know what I want but only at the right price.

Other than that, I'm disgusted the post harvest garbage at the store. Also a real sucker for a tomato with a fascinating pedigree, interesting stories to tell, and great flavor...

I would like to study how to make a reliable organic “tea” to replace some of the fertilizer salts I’m currently using. Until I can swing a respectable piece of land to make my ‘maters feel at home just like they did in their native rainforest ;-), the whole attraction for me is the sport of learning about the creative things everyone is doing until I lose count of the varieties I’ve grown and have tomatoes coming out of my ears ;-)

I'm also using Daconil, but I wasn't happy about that decision and only did it after having a long chat with the tech people in one of the major marketers trying to sort out their BS inconsistent recommendations. Reality is this is Florida and so far it is either … no tomatoes on my earthy soapbox … or tomatoes with careful application of whatever tools are required to get by.

If you want to study what’s going on with Oxidate, I’m always enthusiastic to crack 10-fold margins on manufacturers’ formulas. It wasn’t at the top of the list since I generally avoid peroxide which under some circumstances is harsh, as well as putting organic residue on leaves rather than roots, but I never looked carefully at the mechanics of action, so that is something to do if people like you with more practical growing experience want to collaborate ;-)
PC

Chemistry! Cool! Am most impressed!
if you find time, yes please, I would like chemist's educated opinion on home version of biosafe, sounds like quite a valid alternative and I am ok wearing gogles when mixing LOL. Specially if one can apply biosafe, wipe out all nasty stuff from leaves and then populate it with good aerobic kinds...

Here is a link that might be useful: biosafe

Sure, I have time, but you will have to adopt me for seed trading, in kindness LOL

OK In no particular order:

Thanks for the link, I see what it is all about, nothing much to crack and a very simplistic product. First off, you will need those goggles (real ones, not Googles LOL), otherwise I won't say more because you are dealing with a product made from two nasty chemicals that can disfigure or blind you.

Don't take the chemicals lightly, in concentrated form they have nothing in common with the stuff from Walmart; this is not for anyone except a responsible, seriously careful person who refuses to pay big bucks and understands that it can blind you, consume your flesh or explode, depending on how we go about it. No kids or other curious cats are allowed near this and if you have a neoprene suit, use it ;-).

Next. An observation is the RTS, could be a different product than the others on the link you gave me. You probably cannot make it by simply adding low concentrations of 5% vinegar and 3% H2O2. I doubt it would be very different than straight H202 that way, but that is the most important detail for further study

Another observation, is that the non-RTS stuff on your link I suspect is a typically omissively clever MSDS.

If you have sufficient need, the 2.5 gallon concentrate for around two Benjamins with Hazmat shipping included is a great deal - meaning if you get into this product it is not really worth making your own. The reason to make it is if you only need a very small amount or want to do it to prove a point hehehe.

Now a comment on: ("wipe out all nasty stuff from leaves and then populate it with good aerobic kinds...") ... that one's on you ... via application of your special tea or strains. The moment this product is used everything will get sterilized or injured on the surface, on contact, and it will be first come first serve for the new colonists. It could even backfire if you aren't careful if the bad microbugs get a foothold and proliferate first. That is something you need to manage carefully.

The formula for making the concentrate looks like about 5 grams of glacial acetic acid +100 grams of 35% hydrogen peroxide equilibrated, and then + approx 1 mL of concentrated acid (not Nitric which either could explode it or more likely asphyxiate you with laughing gas ...use Sulfuric), though you'd likely be able to use approx 4 mL of 30% of the acid. We would need to get that number correctly by trial.

The RTU stuff, I don't think can be made in dilute form easily but I'd need to look into that to be sure. I'm pretty sure we'd need to make it concentrated and then dilute the concentrate, and I'm not sure they are using water to dilute at this point. So that is to be investigated to see the details. We also need a better MSDS and/or a sample of the RTU.

Does this sound good so far and should we go on, or maybe just try dilute hydrogen peroxide (from Walmart) alone as a spray and see if that gives any results first? BTW concentrate H2O2 is a good rocket fuel ;-)

Happy Chemistry
PC

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Wed, Sep 3, 14 at 20:47

Sure thing on seeds, I can easily share what I grow. Thank you so much for looking at the product. I know Oxidate form RTU for home grower is safer. I think regular peroxide though is already ineffective so food grade is better but needs to be diluted. Now just adding little of vinegar to peroxide will help?
Hmm, now you are giving me thoughts on wiping it all may or may not result in desired colonies... hmm, interesting to hear microbiology point of view, and if it is harmful for good bacteria if dripping occur.
I just might have to stick to my tea and fermenting Effective microorganisms loads and wait till mass effect takes hold and good guys win...
Speaking of original pictures how is the garden holding after Daconyl treatment?

Any help will be appreciated.
PC
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
It seems to me that you know more than anybody else about it. In request for a picture of your plant, you posted a picture of some weed. LOL

sey

Hi sey, I did everything right and the tomato plants kept getting re-infected in a pattern that made no sense. I was running around so concerned about the plants, I just let's say, didn't look below the plants :-O. You asked for the pic, and I had been plucking any faint infection immediately so there was nothing and then I decided to show a photo of the ground so you could see the humidity situation. Well, I looked at the ground and it was an Oh, Crap, moment. The entire yard was carpeted with the weed and apparently had just been infected within the week. Every time I walked there I was kicking up mold from the weed. But if you didn't ask for the pic I wonder how much longer I would have missed it. OK, do I owe a picture of the plants?

(after the weeds were removed) looked like this:

It so far seems that the plants were getting random infection spots and there has not been a single case since the weeds were removed, and I worked all day and till midnight by streetlight lighting, and I'm relaxed about it now, as a learning experience :-( Really it was like waking up in a mold nightmare, Now you see grass and bare ground under the plants. Before it was a lush, thick cooling weed canopy, which like wildfire became infected. These plants were grown out of season; the real season is starting right now

Thanks!
PC

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Thu, Sep 4, 14 at 11:26

Looking good! Glad you found the culprit!

Hi lindalana!

I haven't had much time today to think more about this than last night's post, but there's just a few things. My plants are recovering, but it is from copper sulfate damage, my fault for applying it too late in the morning. So, no mold to be seen but, complete loss of flowering and I've now removed about 20% of the leaves ... the fried ones.

Now just adding little of vinegar to peroxide will help?
This is the big question and someone else may know the answer from experience. Yes it will help, but how much it will help ... hmmm, not sure because we need to establish our goals first.

* how exactly do we plan to use solution?
* how much working solution will satisfy our need?
* how many ppm of peracetic acid do we need to do that
* how long does a mixture of H2O2 + Acetic acid take to produce the peracetic acid
*what is the lowest pH our solution can be and not injure plants
* what is the ppm of the 2.5 gallon preparation in a working solution, for comparison. I'm thinking 150 ppm to 300 ppm.

Foliar like for my mold situation, or to treat seeds .... Where can we get these ppm application rates ... I had no luck with Google. Also, does distilled vinegar contain other chemicals besides acetic acid that are undesirable...

My thinking right now is to pour equal volumes of Walmart stuff (WM) 3% peroxide and 5% vinegar and leave them in a dark place for a couple of weeks, then dilute them with de-chlorinated water so it ends up in one part WM vinegar, one part WM H2O2, and two parts water, and immediately apply as the peracetic acid will begin to revert. That might get us into the ball park application rate of 150 ppm peracetic acid, but we need to verify that. I think I saw peracetic acid test strips somewhere, but they were expensive. In order to experiment let's see if we can find a deal on them so we can get some results to interpret.

Still, I want to add, it seems peroxide and vinegar from Walmart are less expensive, but actually the reverse is true. Per liter of working solution, we will pay more. If I am not mistaken the concentrated stuff is applied 1:100 (?) and if the shipped cost of 2.5 gallons is $225 for example, that's $90 per gallon. For 100 gallons final solution, that's $0.90 per gallon. If we do a quart of peroxide and a quart of vinegar, it will cost more than that and likely be enriched in vinegar and H2O2 at the expense of lower peracetic acid because of all the water in the Walmart concentrate we make.

Now, if I wanted this stuff, observing flawless safety practice, I would find a local source of "food grade peroxide" which properly nabbed should be $25 a gallon to go and pick it up ... just where to find it...and, I would buy a liter of glacial acetic acid for about $20, much cheaper if I didn't order it online and had some locally. That would make my cost under $75 for the $225 approx commercial product. Alternately, we could concentrate the peroxide and acetic acid from WM to an intermediate strength and probably get much better results. But that is a very wasteful thing to do at home, a little dangerous, and unless we assay what we get, difficult to be sure of the home prepared WM stuff we concentrate. As it is, even if we can just mix the two WM as is, it is per gallon working solution much more expensive even than the commercial product, which itself is triple the concentrate cost made from food grade 35% peroxide and glacial.

Lots of possibilities floating around here but we need to get back to the basics which could advance this. They are to determine the ppm peracetic acid we require and seeing if we can get cheap peracetic test strips somewhere. Also, can we get a better MSDS on the ready to use Oxidate and especially know the pH of that stuff as sold. The benefit of the commercial product is getting the correct application rate by mixing according to directions, and with a home brew, we need to know the ppm and reproducibly make it on demand. Until we get that we have no way of optimizing except by trial and error with the plants. If someone else has done that would save a lot of work! People who work in plant labs might know these ppms off the top of their heads.

Thoughts?
PC

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Thu, Sep 4, 14 at 12:30