ThIs past season I grew almost what is shown in "green _go"'s picture. I had the seeds from Trader Joes bought heirloom. Compared to sungold: It has the advantage of NOT cracking . But not as sweets an tasty. Plus thick skinned. That is the reason for not cracking. So I won't repeat.
Few weeks ago I bought a package of heirloom cherry (various shapes, colors) from Trader Joe and saved seeds from some yellow and brown once.

Here is a picture. They
I was interested in the largest ones (at lower left hand corner)

greengo and seysonn, thanks for the replies ;-)

green_go, I could not have gotten a more experienced reply! It's great you were out there in tomato-land and took the time to reply and post your pictures, and comment on the plant vigor, size and production, and the question on all of our minds ..."how true they grew". That gives me a great deal of confidence to try a plant in one of my scarce cramped spaces in downstream sunlight!

seysonn, do you recall if there was any labeling on your package as to where they were grown and who was marketing them? It doesn't sound like the mark Zima was on them, so I'd like to be sure to understand what assumptions you use to link Trader Joe tomatoes varieties with Zima. It sounds like the tough skin and you didn't mention the, in my words, "longitudinal stretch marks" (help, What's a better term for what is clearly shown in green_go's pictures and in my Zima bought at the store.).

I will grow one because I am reading Hazera's grower agreement right now and studying up on their company. The Zima tomato I feel is a good fit to their breeding program as gourmetgardener said, but I am not convinced on the variety. What seems very likely to me is he's right about Hazera and that Hazera bred this tomato by combining the toughest LSL gene they had in their toolkit with the sweetest yel/orange grape they had in their breeding lines. The effect of this gene is to triple the shelf life of Zima(TM) tomatoes and cut the brix down somewhat, which I can say ... sweetness was less than I expected, though sweet ... and the LSL gene is why.

Furthermore on the LSL gene they chose, which I'll call the "tank gene" since only they know which one, one effect of an LSL gene it to increase acidity significantly ... that's why I tested it...I couldn't believe how acid this tomato was. And its acidity of my sample was right at the lowest pH of all tomatoes, 4.0. Don't let this tomato fool you ... due to its very high brix, the acidity is masked from taste. On the pH scale, it is a sour nectarine, compared to a Sungold, which is a moderate acidity, pH 4.5. Or Hillbilly an heirloom that can approach pH 5.

In summary, this variety looks something like someone wanted a Sungold grape that could sit in a clamshell for three weeks stored as cool produce. It is really a good job all things considered IMO. About that Hazera Grower agreement. Isn't this an invitation to us all ;-):

•Seeds may be used only to produce a single crop. Neither the reselling of seeds nor the saving or selling, for seed purposes, of any harvested product, is allowed.

•The alteration of seed and the use of seed, or causing/permitting the seed to be used, in breeding or for further propagation, reproduction of propagation material and/or in seed production, is strictly prohibited.

•The user of seed shall allow and/or shall secure anyone on behalf of Hazera direct access to its Business, in order that Hazera can carry out inspections to verify compliance with the aforesaid and in general with Hazera’s proprietary rights with respect to the seed and reproduction material. “Business” in this clause shall also mean greenhouses and administration facilities, whether of user or of third parties acting on behalf of user. User shall upon request also allow direct access to its administration.

Hazera is welcomed to come to sue my grocery store to inspect my tomatoes. Maybe we should emasculate some of them and pollenate & backcross with Sungold just for research purposes. That is likely a useless cross since the only goal would be to pass the tank gene to Sungold and screw up its flavor :-(

Thanks again for posting the growing conditions green_go, I am sure many people will Google them and find them as helpful as I do!

PC

I can't transfer a thread here from elsewhere or I could get banned, so I cut and pasted the following which tells you exactly who bred it and it wasn't Hazara.

(Zima is a hybrid developed by Doug Heath while he was working at Monsanto. He developed it from a very sweet orange cherry variety that is a true open pollinated line. Breeding into a grape shaped variety was primarily to reduce problems with splitting. IMO the sweet orange cherry is just a tad sweeter than Zima.

Doug Heath is now working for Bejo as their top tomato breeder.)

Carolyn

Thanks Carolyn for your abstract. Please don't get banned for a Sweet -n- Sour tomato.

Well, then it is from Doug's Seminis program and not Hazera's after all! I was having problems agreeing with the variety gourmetgardener thought, but elsewhere he provides some great background too. The rest of my comments seem pretty much in line with this. Whoever the author was seems to know which the sweet orange cherry was (yup, lots of them LOL) to judge it being sweeter. But I'm not sure it was the round vs. grape shape as much as getting the LSL gene of choice (see above comments) that the breeding was principally after, while maintaining the brix as high as possible.

Carolyn, why don't ask one of your friends if Monsanto didn't groom and support the principal grad student involved with Indigo Rose to replace Doug as tomato breeder there. Don't you think that would be a little gem of information to know ;-) Nah, on second though, maybe I don't want to know!

PC

google "Doug Heath Orange Tomato" and you will find a few articles where he mentions developing Zima. He went through several iterations before getting the desired combination of flavor, sweetness, and shape.

"Well sure, and I’m kind of taking you through this thing in terms if not just the change in profile but increasing sugars. Probably the last thing we’ll taste is this orange grape tomato I have that’s just candy. It’s amazingly, amazingly sweet. I hope they’re not overripe. It has kind of the low acids like the first one I showed you, but double the sugar. "

This post was edited by fusion_power on Fri, Nov 7, 14 at 15:55

Fusion, just a note of thanks for the suggestion which I'll do later this eve for sure and that I always appreciate your comments. Also let me clarify this quote you pulled from somewhere w/r to Zima(TM) "low acid".

"I hope they’re not overripe. It has kind of the low acids like the first one I showed you, but double the sugar. "

"Low Acid" is inaccurate if we are speaking of pH, so I suspect the quote is for a different tomato, or more likely, completely different growing conditions and post harvest handling. My product is from Mexico in the high tech $3.99 upside-down clamshells they specially designed for this product.

I measured the pH in two ways for my product. Their pH of Zima(TM) orange grape tomatoes built like brass projectiles LOL in both "tests" was 4.0 at best, or highest pH. Initially I ate these tomatoes and the dentin of two of my teeth hurt like a trip to the dentist's office. It happened three times, each time I ate them. The last time I let them sit on top of the fridge about 3 days and the hurt was less.

Laugh if you like, but my teeth specifically hurt with blueberries (pH around 3.5), but never with navel oranges or juice I buy ... pH 3.9 to 4.2. All apples except ripe red delicious make them hurt. Ripe red delicious pH 4.1; the rest 3.4 to 3.9.

The second test was with a Universal indicator solution appropriately done. I test pH of other things every day, so this is no big deal. It showed 4.0 or less but I didn't believe it. But it was used on the overripe tomatoes (less acid), beyond the optimal time to eat. Note, if you get 4.0 that is a distribution of pH's for each tomato. Some more, some less. Since my teeth still hurt enough (ouch the pain). some were clearly under my threshhold. Above 4.0 I don't get any pain at all ... no sensitivity.

Between the chemical indicator test and my teeth which hurt like a mac truck in my face, there 0 probability that these tomatoes are low acid. That, is a joke!

Now confounding effects are mine are Mexican grown. Picked sooner. Cooled longer ... these are post harvest issues. The LSL gene Zima(TM) has I suspect contributes under these circumstances, as it essentially keeps acidity high as a side effect.

Thanks again. I just had to clarify that since my complaint is not the brass shell casing these tomatoes have called skin (I don't mind poppers, I like the niche) but rather the aggresive acidity .... for my retail purchased sample. All the more reason to grow them. I bet I can get something along Doug's comments ... lower acid...thanks again

PC

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Thu, Nov 6, 14 at 18:13

OK, back to Carolyn's abstract.

"....developed it from a very sweet orange cherry variety that is a true open pollinated line. Breeding into a grape shaped variety was primarily to reduce problems with splitting....."

The above is roughly correct, but this is the full story from what I gather:

Red Grape inbred line (LSL gene) X Sweet Orange Cherry tomato (TMV resistant)
Grow out F1's and make selections, harvest F2 seeds
(Select F2's for tangerine color and high sugar)

One F2 is designated Parent #1 (indeterminate)
The other F2 is designated parent #2 (TMV resistant)

Both F2 parents.

Parent #1 and #2 are culled and fixed true.

The Zima(TM) F1 is the hybrid Parent #1 X Parent #2, an indeterminate TMV resistant plant, with Fus1 and Ver1 resistance, which, it seems both parents also have.

It has a claimed pH: 4.57. (Baloney! in the wholesale shipping market mean pH was 4.0 for two clamshells)

Disclaimer by Seminis: These are typical values. Values may vary due to environment.

Claimed Brix is about 10. It claimed this pH was 2 units higher than other leading grape tomatoes (Best they say, of brix =8, making the Zima(TM) hybrid a superior tomato. The other grape tomato they say they are better than with the brix of 8? SANTA F1 !!!
(My Santa's were so much sweeter tasting)

My mullings about this: Monsanto has hidden their corporate name from this tomato via long coded varieties and letting growers they sell it to use a trademark for it that is not Monsanto's. However they have explicitly patent protected this specific hybrid variety for GMO with the Bt gene and the RoundUp resistance gene ;-)

As for breeding true: Considering the two parents are *already F2 of the original cross*, diminishing segregation one full generation, and mostly only differ with TMV and determinate/indeterminate, but otherwise similar fruit size, brixes all above 8, and both parents are less acid than the actual hybrid, it is no wonder green_go had so much luck growing it from seed. The patent has a lot of work into it, but despite their best efforts, it is significantly based on brix numbers vs. Santa that might be rigged. I can't say for sure, but their growers bombed out on the pH for my sample, so if I were Sunsetgrown, I would ask for my money back. It's a no brainer that sales are depressed because of this. Complaints of thick skin would be forgotton I think if it really delivered on the sweet taste balance claimed. What was the identity of the Orange Cherry? Someone says it is an OP. If anything that may mislead. If I had to bet ... Sungold or Orange Santa. OP? Sure ... couold be a dehybridizing attempt and maybe it came from someone in this forum's LOL This is speculative but would be cute to know ;-) BTW, the orange cherry was the source of TMV resistance. Sungold is TMV resistant FWIW

Back to practical things... green_go's healthy plants look like 10 in sync maturing tomatoes on average per truss ... the same claim as Seminis ... all have tangerine color gene. I think the worst that could happen is getting a recessive self-pruning (determinate) once in a while and loss of resistance to TMV. Comments?

PC

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Thu, Nov 6, 14 at 22:50

The grape yellow ones that I grew , were from a package that I bought from Trader Joe , marked/sold as "heirloom". I have no info on grower. But I would think that there were greenhouse grown.

Here is a picture of my plant, while the fruits were green

Thanks seysonn!

Just a little info on the grower:

The Zima(TM) is not the Seminis variety name. Zima(TM) is a trademark of Canadian based Mastronardi Produce, whose company's main name (a trademark) is "Sunset Produce" and "Sunsetgrown". They claim to be the first commercial greenhouse growers in north America ... by Grandpa Umberto Mastronardi in ca. 1954 ;-). However, this is a misrepresentation as the first commercial Greenhouse was built in the USA in 1820. George Washington even built a private one at his estate of Mt. Vernon right after the Revolution with the collaboration of Margaret Carrol and Thomas Jefferson after his cold and hungry experience in Valley Forge in 1778. It was the most advanced greenhouse of its time and huge and citrus was a favorite crop as well as other edibles and ornamentals.

Mastronardi Produce began using the Zima trademark in 2010 for this Monsanto tomato.

Since yours were yellow and not tangerine orange colored I think it is a safe bet that these are two different varieties, but as you said previously, they could be related. After surfing around a lot, Trader Joe's showed up as one of the first outlets for the tangerine orange colored grape shaped tomato which is marked as Zima(TM) by .Mastronardi. I didn't find whether it is an exclusive grower deal between the two monster corporations (in size of course), or whether it is being grown by others. However calling something developed with the sweet orange grape hybrid tomato or anything else new from its breeding program an heirloom would be more phony than calling Sungold F1 an heirloom.

So if we are to believe your Trader Joe's yellowish grape tomato is an heirloom by a reasonable, non-marketeer definition, it would need to be some of the original OP germplasm from Asia , pre-1990, before grape shaped tomatoes became a commercial item. There are some claimed heirloom cherry bunching tomatoes that are called grape tomatoes due to the way they cluster, but they are round.

You probably bough the mini-heirloom clamshell from Trader Joe's, who is great at target marketing and avoiding criticism from forum moderators. Marketing claims for your specific product:

What’s old is new again. Not really new, yet certainly au courant, heirloom tomatoes, by definition, have been around for years ... hundreds of years, in some cases. Heirloom tomato varieties differ from most commercial varieties in that they are grown from seeds that have been passed down from plant to plant over many years, not hybridized to highlight specific characteristics. They also have fabulous names like Dr. Carolyn, Chadwick Cherry, Orange Flame, Sugar Snack and Thai Grape, to name just a few..

Thai Grape? LOL, do they mean Thai Egg Phucket tomato? Maybe you grew a version of Dr. Carolyn??? (snicker snicker)

(Sarcasm directed at Trader Joe's for their deceptive marketing practices)

Kidding aside, Great plant seysonn ... thanks for posting the picture as it sounds like it has an LSL gene just a bad as Zima(TM)'s, and otherwise would be more fun to grow, and more delicious.

Cheers
PC

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Fri, Nov 7, 14 at 9:32

PC, the first quote I gave was from a post by Fusion if that helps,( smile)

Carolyn

Thanks Carolyn ... it always helps to get source references!

Here's the rest of the Trader Joe's blurb on seysonn's tomatoes, after the part about the Dr. Carolyn tomato being the number one fabulous heirloom name:

"We’ve become quite fond of Baby Heirloom Tomatoes, smaller versions of heirloom varieties, which we think are a terrific opportunity to try a bunch of different heirloom varieties, in a one pound package, for the excellent price of $3.49*. Some are super sweet, some more tart ... all are bursting with fresh tomato flavor."

Ehhem. So, how can I make some of these baby heirlooms? Do they pick'em small and immature like baby spinach (jk) Or do they mean"small heirlooms and not some new versions? I hope so because the word "versions" leaves a lot of weasel room for calling something an heirloom that may not be.

PC

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Fri, Nov 7, 14 at 21:01

To be complete ... there is another comment from 2013 on GW from BriAnDaren who grew six Zima(TM) F2's. Not much info like pics or text, except one big note:

6 plants all orange mature berries
==> Form was a distribution, grapes, but also rounded, etc., and not uniform in size

All sweet and tough skinned! (love it he compared them to Sungold).

Looking at what Seminis did ... this makes sense. The selection criteria were principally LSL, sweetness and color, and all met this. Shape was never mentioned as a selection criterion for Parent #1 and Parent#2, only the Zima(TM) F1 hybrid of them.

Mullings: So there is no guarantee of grape shape though it sounds like it is the most prevalent for the small data set we have available. Looking at Parent #1 and Parent #2, one is significantly more elongated than the other. Seems plausible that shape is no guarantee and would render the variety commercial protection by segregation of F2 in the shape department. It sounded too good to be true in that parents and hybrid and F2's are all high brix and orange. The hybrid protection to dehybridize may well be in that the grape shape needs to be selected. This could make sense in that we are basically talking about an attempt to commercially lift Sungold and turn it into a bulletproof shipper, which is sounding more like the motivation of this breeding program and needs further exploration. But from green_go's and BriAnDaren's experences it looks like grape is most likely.

PC

Here is a link that might be useful: 2013 6th reply by BriAnDaren

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Fri, Nov 7, 14 at 16:15

Dr. Carolyn Pink is a fantastic cherry tomato. re the origin of Zima, you got it part right, but a whole lot wrong, in particular re the source of the orange cherry. Also, the orange cherry parent typically brix 12 or a tad higher and has much thinner skin than Zima.

As for eating quality, I had a high brix plant from a segregating cross of Little Lucky X Sungold in my garden this year. It was among the best flavored "salad" tomatoes I've ever eaten.

Thanks. Whether it is Sungold or not as the source orange cherry as the original parent is really irrelevant unless we wish to get in the breeding business vs. simply grow the variety for fun. I would like to know for curiosity though and the thick skin on it certainly is unexpected!

The rest is generally accurate according to Seminis & Monsanto, especially their reserving the rights of this variety for inserting the genetically engineered traits to make it a Bt-Zima and a Roundup Ready Zima. Both Monsanto patents for genetic modification were included in their entirety in the text of the patent for the Seminis variety the Canadians trademarked as the Zima(TM) orange grape variety.

The patent maintained a few things secret like the orange cherry variety name and one or two parental resistances. Where I have speculated I have clarified they are opinion. The rest is straight from Seminis, including the breeding pedigree which has an unknown high brix orange cherry that you apparently have insight about.

Would you share the identity or more information on that OC variety, a reference, or is it a personal connection?

Thanks again
PC

PS Who doesn't think Dr. Carolyn in all that tomato's presentations isn't fabulous? Your sweet cross is a great motivation and IMO a success if it is half of what you said. I wish I had more space to do such experiments! Congrats.

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Fri, Nov 7, 14 at 22:06

How about Orange Paruche? It's a hybrid with TMV resistance.

Linda

How about Orange Paruche?

Yes, a great question!

So far we have, forum contributions:
1. OC (orange cherry) has (EDIT: thinner) skin than the grape it was crossed with.
2. OC had problems with splitting for its niche.
3. OC was crossed with a grape for improved split resistance
4. OC has a brix of 12 (this is likely grazing the genetic limit of the garden tomato species for sugar content.
5. OC is a a true OP
6. OC is not Sungold F1 or Sungold OPed.

And Seminis claims:
7. OC has ToMV resistance (previously, I wrote TMV and the trait is likely similar, so I better be dotting my i's since some people reading this are certainly better than me !)
8. OC is sweet, orange, cherry

Growing experience of BriAnDaren
9. Zima(TM) F2 can produce sweet orange currant tomatoes as well as other non-grape shapes

Orange Paruche F1 is not a true OP, has a brix of 9, not 12, and has a thinner skin than most cherries. Basically the same situation as Sungold F1, maybe sweeter!

Mullings:
If it is an OP, what OP has ToMV resistance? Wasn't ToMV resistance was sourced from Solanum chilense, a small green wild tomato, and is in many hybrids? ... but what OC OP? Someone would know that right off the bat, right? Is this an exclusive OP of someone's breeding program?

Currant tomatoes. hmmm. Let's not overlook that part quickly. The breeding program seems deceptively simple, doesn't it? Two F2's from a single cross, and then cleaning up those F2's and making them parents. Perhaps the biggest company asset is actually OC, developed from wild or exotics and breeding material (which is OP after a number of lucky crosses and backcrosses). That's speculative! Zima(TM) rather than being the goal is simply one early presentation of this material? Yellow/gold Galapagos are thin skinned or aren't they...

The sweet Ambrosia line from J&L relies on Sungold, I think. But more clues are on J&L's as he has developed very sweet tomatoes with some wild genes, and I'm not sure Sungold is involved in some of his sweetest. (EDIT: added ... For example, I seem to recall reading somewhere that foliage has a sweet smell for some crosses including wild material, and if that sweet smell is noticed it could be insightful)

If we take all the 9 points as fact without further reference, some seem not to add up unless the OC is something more exotic, or there is a mistake of two in the assumptions. Hopefully someone can kindly come forward and give us a hint!

PC

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Fri, Nov 7, 14 at 20:30

PC and others, I've posted this here at GW before and will do it again.

Every single post I've made at many different message sites since 1982 I've signed off as Carolyn, which I prefer.

Yes, when I was working I was known as Dr. Male, but I've always kept my professional life and what I was called there separate from my personal life which includes message sites like this one,

Thanks all, in advance, (smile)

Carolyn

Carolyn,

I edited out the "Dr." in the 12th post of this thread to reflect your strong preference. Any ideas on the identity of an OP orange cherry tomato with a brix of 12?

PC (who feels similarly about online signatures as I once needed to say in this forum to Carolyn and others)

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Fri, Nov 7, 14 at 21:04

OK, regarding the Sweet Orange Cherry tomato, one more point to add to it:

Comments by Doug Heath in interview article
10. OC is high in antioxidants - an real outlier

Further, FWIW, Doug's rhetorical canned reply on the question we would like to know:

"And, What’s the history of that thing?” Unfortunately I didn’t know. Some stuff you just inherit from your predecessors. It would be nice to know on all my stuff all the parentage all the way back."

Maybe. Or maybe that's just the politically mandated company reply to protect the company's golden jewels. This suggests it was a proprietary OP that was lost in Seminis, but was regularly grown by Doug since he "always liked the taste of it.", yet it had no past, no history, it was just there. I don't buy it. Maybe no one ever picked up the file/notebook on purpose ;-). It certainly sounds like the tomato was important enough to remember something about. Jim would know for sure! Someone would have asked him and he would have shared his knowledge as he always did. I suspect it may have been his own material.

PC

Hi,

Kinda late to the party, but here are some observations for you, PC.

I only grew 2 Zima plants this year, both were F3 and both turned out to be orange grapes. It seems stable going to the next generation, I know, it's based on only 2 plants.

The original Zima that I purchased was NOT sour. It tasted like a typical greenhouse tomato, mostly bland. There was a hint of sweetness but I wouldn't describe it as a sour tomato.

In my garden, Zima is as sweet as Sungold, but less sour than Sungold. However where Sungold has a fruity taste, Zima has a distinct taste that's hard to describe and that I'm not too crazy about.

Daren

ps I grew Kumato this year. Not bad, I'll do it again next year. Now that's saying something since I'm very picky about only growing the sweetest tomato there is.

Daren,

Thanks so much for adding some real-world growing info and the great F3 data!!!

In the end that is what will make the difference in whether there will be interest for anyone to actually make the effort to grow it.

I think your comment on not sour (vs. acidity) and mine may be both accurate ... and the thing you don't like about the taste ... my problem too ... and what I wonder most is if yours were imported or grown right there in Ontario, not kept cold so long and picked closer to maturity = sweeter, low acid.

The reason IMO that Sungold has that fruity taste is that it truely is low acid and extremely high sugar. It is more related to the sugar:acid ratio that give a sweet taste. The lingering aftertaste is fruity sweet in SG where Zima lingers more acid. And the acid hits my dentin and turns into acute dental pain on the next bite for me, so I notice ;-(. The first ones I ate were somewhat sweet, but once the experience is ruined by an aching tooth ... never happened with Santa nor any of my home grown 'maters.

I just went to my grocer yesterday who has a few clamshells left over from the Zima promotion over three weeks ago, asking if they would just give me the ones with a few rotting ones inside instead of throwing those away. They told me, "They are not attracting flies yet" so we keep them (as if they could through that clamshell ... and there was one fruit fly ;-)) The tomatoes were from the shipment I bought and ate around 10 days ago, and a few began shriveling and three or four covered in gray mold but mostly they were still hard bullets. He told me to visit the dumpster in a few days if I wanted them since he would be fired for giving me the rotten tomatoes! (in which case I would have given anyone some for free via SASE). I explained I just wanted the seeds but you should have seen the look I got as the store manager who didn't grasp it so he told me if I wanted the seeds, why not buy the rotten packages from him for $4. each ;-)

Thanks Daren, we have the same interest I think, so I'm going to look into the kumatos one of these days. Down here in Florida I have my first Santa F2 going and it is a race, but I think I'll make it. One plant really looks strong. It will be a good one to get some F3's since some nice grape shaped tomatoes have started and survived back to back 41 degree nights in a cold snap, which killed a few flowers on Better Boy and Cherokee Purple, and made fused blossoms on other varieties. It is performing just as well as my Supersweet 100's, but three weeks later, due to a later planting date by three weeks. Maybe when I get my Santa F3's in a month weather permitting we could swap some if you want.

Did you try the Nectar hybrid tomato that is supposed to be super duper sweet, and very low acid? 10 seeds for $4-$5!

PC

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Sat, Nov 8, 14 at 13:51

Just noting that Monsanto bought out Seminis but Seminis is not a single company for there are 5 different companies that comprise Seminis and the one that's of interest to most US growers is Petoseed.

That company was started by John Peto who left Burpee many years ago and took seeds with him for Teddy Jones, which was one parent of Big Boy F1, bred by Dr, Shifriss at burpee and also a parent of Better Boy F1 bred in CA where John Peto moved to.

Carolyn

Carolyn, Seminis is a global company headquartered in Oxnard or Saticoy if direction hasn't been taken over from St. Louis yet. Some of the acquisitions that comprise it have been merged and blurred to varying degrees. More than 5 acquisitions formed Seminis.

Seminis Home Garden was spun out of Peto, but Home Garden has been a tiny part of the company (If I recall, basically a one man show). Asgrow is another big player for farmers.

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Sun, Nov 9, 14 at 0:33