I've seen them growing well in dry locations scattered throughout Chicago Botanical Gardens.

A fairly nice tree, my only calm is insignificant fall color.

Thanks Whaas. This is a tough site for any tree, and I was also thinking of Catalpa and Celtis, but neither produces decent fall color. Ditto for Gymnocladus. I may have to broaden my horizon and consider a deciduous conifer for this spot. Larches are fast and have nice fall color. Does anyone know if Japanese or European Larch have some tolerance for dry soils? How about fall color on these two larches -- is one better that the other?

Hey basic, I'd not consider any larch truly well adapted to dry soils. Normal moist/well-drained, heck yeah, but not dry.

You like sumac at all? Hehe, that'll grow there and provide big fall color.

+oM

Yep, Larch don't do well on dry soils. I only see them growing more in valleys around here.

If you are patient and pick one out, Gymnocladus is a great choice. The winter branching, even of a juvenile, is tremendous.

Heh, just goes to show ya....'to each his own'! I guess I'm not yet a fan of Gymnocladus' winter appearance! But that's personal taste, not a fact-based statement.

I do agree that trees from the Leguminosae are unbeatable in dry, sterile environments. So much so in fact that on some sun-baked hillsides in the sandy, gravelly areas of N. Wisconsin, Robinia has become quite invasive. Tree doesn't belong up there but given today's conditions, is gradually expanding its range northward. But I digress. Since fall color is one of the desires for this spot, the otherwise woefully overplanted honeylocust might fit the bill. It's not native to dry sites in its natural home but seems able to grow pretty much anywhere.

+oM

Not an Alder - that would be a poor long term choice, nor would it provide any significant fall color.

Better the KY Coffee tree, or another non-native to WI like Maclura pomifera 'White Shield'. Or if you are truly adventurous, go for a sweet hickory like Carya cordiformis.

Kentucky Coffeetree was actually my first choice and I'm definitely a fan. Still, I'm not convinced this tree is tolerant of dry conditions. Tolerance of drought is different than an affinity for dry soil. This site is going to be dry much of the time, year in and year out.

Robinia? Mmm, that would be thinking outside the box. I've seen some nice ones and the flowers are pleasant. If this one is on the table, I might as well consider Boxelder. There's a surprising number of cultivars, including one that is touted as having very good fall color. Is there anyone who would admit to planting an Acer negundo? ;)

Whatever I decide to go with, fall color is most likely not going to be the determining factor. Anyhow, I appreciate your input and you've given me a lot to think about. If I was really patient, I'd plant a White Oak and forget about it. :)

Do you have Quercus coccinea?

They naturally occur on dry sites.

John, that is absolutely freaky. How are you doing?

Hadn't even considered Maclura, but I'm a fan after seeing the gorgeous specimen at Starhill Forest. Actually, I'm not sure they're fully hardy in z4, but I've never tried one myself. Carya cordiformis? Looks like I've got some research to do.

Interesting you mention Q. coccinea. I was working in Iowa this past week and was passing through the little town of Hampton when I noticed a farm/feed store that had a few trees displayed in front. My legs were in need of stretching (funny how they always need stretching when I pass by a nursery) and stopped in. About 1/2 of their tree stock was Acer griseum and Q. coccinea. I don't really have a point here, but it sure was strange to see this.

To answer your question, Whaas, I might have Scarlet Oak. Actually, I've got a woods full of Q. ellipsoidalis, which I think some taxonomists consider the same as coccinea. I won't get into that arguement, but I'm reluctant to plant anything in the Red Oak group due to the prevalence of Oak Wilt that is rampant here. It's bad.

Can anyone vouche for the tolerance to dry soils of Acer truncatum? There's a Twin Cities nursery that has several of them, and they look very good.

Bob

Hmm not sure of its tolerance of dry soils as its normally a coppice tree found near water, similar habit to willows:

Cultivation âÂÂJump back a section Timber It is important as coppice-wood on marshy ground. The alder is capable of enduring clipping as well as marine climatic conditions. The tree may be cultivated as a windbreak. It adapts to the conditions fast and the young trees also develop rapidly, almost growing about one meter or more in a year. Hence, the alder is an outstanding pioneer species for reinstating forestland or abandoned farmland and other problematic soils that do not support vegetation easily. Its rapid growth provides secluded conditions to establish more lasting forest trees. Besides, as nitrogen-fixing bacteria colonize the roots, it is able to enrich the soil and thereby help the proper growth of other plants which cannot cope with the impoverished conditions. Alder also provides shade to the plants growing below and the leaf fall helps to increase the amount of humus present in the soil. The species is cultivated as a tree in parks and gardens, and the variety 'Imperialis' has gained the Royal Horticultural Society's Award of Garden Merit. [8]

You might also want to consider the Italian Alder (A.cordata) with dainty, slender leaves and a more slender profile.

I believe A.cordata has a nicer habit from what I recall as well.

I think Acer truncatum would be a stretch in zone 4.
Mine was growing unbelieveable quick in a dry sandy soil.
I gave it away as my A x 'Satisfaction' looked very similar, the leave was just a bit more refined and the habit was a bit more columnar.

I'm intrigued by that Maclura pomifera 'White Shield' as well being fruitless and thornless. I know the species is hardy to zone 4 not sure if this plant would be any different.

The two oaks are definitely different. I don't think Quercus ellipsoidalis typically has good fall color or least its inconsistent. What do you see on your trees?
Eitherway I don't blame you for adding more Oak if you have a forest of a plant that is closely related.

I would never buy a big alder, they grow very fast and should always be bought small.

"...and should always be bought small."

I get the gist of what you're saying, but always? What if you could buy a...mmm, let's say...#10 pot for $35 with an apparently healthy root system?

You buy it!

VV,
I'm sure your fingers were racing ahead of your brain when you typed "sweet hickory, like Carya cordiformis" - aka bitternut hickory; nutmeats astringent like a green persimmon - but a lovely, fast-growing tree, nonetheless.
Uh-oh...showing my lack of coolness. Maybe you meant 'sweet', as utilized in the youthful hip vernacular?
LP

I could really use a youthful hip. Actually, two of them would be perfect. ;)

Speaking of A. cordata, I planted one a couple of years ago and it has become a magnet for every Sawfly from Maine to Missouri. I've had trouble keeping leaves on it. It is not unusual for me to go by every 3 days and kill 50 of those S shaped leaf eating beasts. If I see a tiny hole in the leaf, I know there are a bunch of the larvae even though they are smaller than the period at the end of this sentence.
I'm gone from home for an extended period now, and fully expect that when I get home the plant will be a few bare stalks. I am thankful it is fall and maybe it will be ok. Anybody ever hear about problems here in the States with this pest on this tree?