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marinfla

Lateral Branching

marinfla
12 years ago

Can anyone share their personal experience or offer some advice on this: I will repost a picture of my Keitt tree below. It is going through another major growth flush and I became concerned that this tree would grow very tall and narrow when I saw how the last flush hardened. I should have considered this with the last growth flush but never got around to it after life got very hectic.

The new growth is emerging so fast that I decided to weight the branches down with wire and rock to hold them horizontal.

Already after one day the new growth has changed direction and is pointing upright from the now laterally held branches.

How long will these tethers have to hold down the branches before they will stay that way on their own?

For those that have done this... will vertical branches bud out along the length between the new growth and the trunk?

Please share your experiences with this. I will take a pic tomorrow of the new branch positions and post it

Thanks

the keitt is the last tree on the right

Comments (28)

  • mullenium
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My Glenn just natrually branched down probably due to weight.. But it's a west coast upper graft, which I think might be the reason these guys graft so high.. Allowing the more immature grafted branches to grow and sorta dangle outward? I'm not sure

  • marinfla
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The graft on this one is about 4 inches above the ground. This tree was threatening to be over 6-7 feet tall with the new growth and it has only been in the ground since last August. It was getting tall but all the branches were growing straight up so it also looked narrow and lanky.

  • ohiojay
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I know we all joke about this...but seriously, I think a "pugging" is needed here. Pug has shown pic after pic the beautiful results she gets from her trees after this kind of pruning. The shapes, sizes, and branch growth are stunning. Maybe just pug the main branches if a "full pug" seems too unsettling.

    I vote that we submit the word and meaning of "PUG" to some tropical fruit and plant dictionary!

    PUG
    Verb, pug, pug-ging, pugged
    1. To radically prune a tropical fruit tree...specifically a mango, well beyond the norm. "I'm going to pug this Hayden mango." "What the HELL are you doing? I'm pugging my tree." "That there mango has been pugged!"
    Noun
    1. An act of pugging.
    [NOTE] Said radical procedure takes sac.

  • marinfla
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Later today I am going to post a picture of how the branches are tied/held outwards.... and a Shout out to Nancy for another opinion!

  • ohiojay
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I can hear the soft chant in the background...."pug pug pug pug pug pug". Intoxicating isn't it?

  • jsvand5
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The Keitt in your pic looks perfect from what I can see. I am not sure why you would want to do anything to change the way it is currently growing? To me, it looks to be branching at a nice height and no matter what you do to the tree the branches are probably going to grow up similar to how they are now. Some varieites just grow more upright than others.

  • marinfla
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is the pics with the branches weighed down more lateral. There is lots of new growth and it is flushing vigorously. I am worried it will grow very tall and lack in the width. This seemed like a good idea as pugging it wouldn't give me the lateral branching as it seemed determined to grow tall with no side branching. I have that problem with my avocado tree.

    BEFORE:

    AFTER:

  • puglvr1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lol... Jay you're TOO funny! I do like your idea of submitting "pug" in the tropical fruit tree dictionary though! Even though...I know it will never make it in the dictionary I thank you for suggesting it,lol...you made my day!

    Hi Marin...Pugging isn't for everyone. I don't ever recommend it only because I'm afraid the person will not like the way it looks afterwards, I do it because it works well for me and what I'm trying to achieve. It just really depends on how you want your trees to look...the shape you're wanting and how short/tall you want your tree to be.

    I think you did an AWESOME job with the second picture...I have never tried or used the method you're using so I can't help you there. I have heard several people say that they use that method and has worked very well for them...and it looks like you're having great results as well.

    My personal experience with Keitt is that the growth habit is VERY lanky...this one has always grown very sparse and lanky...my tree has been pugged several times mainly for this reason. Unfortunately, for 2 or 3 winters in a row this one gets severely damaged...right now it got the "pugging" of a lifetime...I'm not even sure if it will look like a tree...but I'm hoping!

    Here's some OLD pics from previous years so you can see the lanky growth habit and after I've pugged it...

    Few months after I planted it...2007. You can see the tall lanky growth habit already...a couple of months later I lightly pugged it.
    {{gwi:1313558}}

    The following year...Spring of 2008
    {{gwi:1313559}}

    I also notice that my Keitt is a very slow grower...mine only flushed once or twice a year...while my other mango trees had at least 3 flushes a year.

    Freeze this year...


    After I pugged it in March...

    This Keitt is really in bad shape...I'm not sure if it will make it although the trunk seems to be alive and I do have a few new growths...its just that it was SO damaged I'm not sure if it will fully recover? Wish me luck!

  • marinfla
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nancy Lot of Luck has been wished your way!
    I really don't think pugging this would gotten the effect I wanted since the growth would have most likely come back with the same tall lanky growth habit. I have been actively pruning my Glenn and Carrie with great results and tip pruning the Lancetilla to keep it from getting too scraggly since it is growing in a pot. (PS the Lancetilla is now in full bloom-I am praying for even just 1 fruit!) . What I am hoping to achieve is widening the base of the canopy laterally without the tree needing to get to 40 feet to do so. I am going to let it grow about 2-3 feet taller then start pruning to shape it, let it grow more and then keep it shaped at 15-20 feet high at most. My avocado seedling was a good lesson for me about what happens with tall lanky/scraggly growth! The tree is 35-40ft tall and the bottom lowest branches (which were really low to the ground starting out) are now 9-10ft above the ground!!

  • Andrew Scott
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi guys,
    I have never been dissapointed with my "pug" jobs. I did it first with my 'Maha Chinook'. I will admit I was VERY nervous about doing it at first but it did what I needed it to do. It produced 6 or 7 branches from a solitary leader. Since then I have "pugged" several trees with similiar results.

    Andrew
    I do think that some basic knowledge of pruning is needed. Where to cut, how to cut and when to cut. As long as you know this stuff, you will be fine.

    Andrew

  • puglvr1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the good luck wishes...I really need it especially on this tree,lol...

    For what its worth I think you're doing a really good job with the technique your using now. You know exactly what shape and size you're after and I'm sure you will accomplish that in a few years. I do agree with you on how tall your Avocado tree is...I can only imagine how hard it must be to pick the fruits,lol...

    Good luck with your Lancetilla, I hope you get to taste at least a few...

  • marinfla
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nancy believe it or not that avocado seedling is only 5 1/2 yrs old!! I learned alot from the mistake of not pruning that tree hard. I may hire a cherry picker to prune it back alot next spring. That tree scares me LOL it is going through a major growth flush again-- but no fruit yet :(

  • sun_worshiper
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is a great discussion and very informative thread! Marin, thanks for the great before/after shaping pictures. I have been wondering how well mangos would take to this type of shaping too. I planted this Manilita mango last summer:

    It wants to grow pretty upright, and I've been experimenting with spreading out the angle of the "y" of the first two branches coming off the trunk (you can see they are tied to side stakes). I've noticed the same behavior that you have, they quickly right themselves. Also, they don't hold the shape readily. Mine has been tied for about 6 months and I just untied it to check the progress. The attempt at shaping has had almost no effect. The branches just bounced back into their original shape after about a week. I've concluded that trying to shape growth that has already hardened off isn't the best option for this tree.

    I am currently contemplating a bit of a "pugging" on this tree. Not back to a single trunk. But rather shortening the primary branches by about half so I end up with a "y". I want this tree to be a very short bush. So I think an initial pruning to remove some height is the right way to go. I want to force some additional lower branching.

    Nancy, I have a question for you. After you pug, how long do you let the new lateral branches get before you tip them to promote further branching? The directions I got with the trees I bought at the Fairchild mango festival last year recommended tipping each branch when it reached 20" to aim for a tree about 8'. But for keeping a very small tree, this seems a bit long to me. I love the results you've had with the shape of your trees, so I'd appreciate your input on when you tip.

    Marin, regarding your shaping effort, I think you have the right idea. And given enough time, I think it will work. But you may want to ease back a bit on how far you've pulled the branches. I've been reading this book (http://www.amazon.com/Pruning-Book-Completely-Revised-Updated/dp/1600850952/ref=pd_sim_b_3), which I would highly recommend. It gives great advice on how to shape some of the more traditional fruit trees (like peaches) as well as a good grounding in general tree pruning & shaping concepts. One of the points it emphasizes is that you want the angle between a branch and the trunk to be between 45 & 60 degrees. This gives the strongest branch position for supporting the weight of fruit. A narrower angle is prone to bark buildup in the joint which can lead to branch tearing in wind. A wider angle (or more horizontal) branch is not as structurally strong for supporting weight and is prone to break under the load of fruit. This book doesn't specifically talk about shaping mangos though. And I have been wondering how this advice applies to mangos. But it makes sense to me that since a mango is a heavy fruit, avoiding completely horizontal branches is probably a good strategy. Of course I can't back that up with personal experience - my trees aren't big enough yet=)

    But I have been forming a peach tree this spring and learned a good trick for tips that are turning upright. I am using this type of clothspin:


    That little gap where the cloths line would go is just the right size to put on a small tree branch without crushing it. When my peach tree has pushed out 6 or eight inches of new growth that is reaching vertically I put a couple close pins on the branch to gently weight it down to the angle I want. Once the growth has hardened off I can remove the pins and the shape remains. I'll try to post a picture this weekend that shows how it works. I think it might work well for your branch tips that are turning skyward.

  • swrancher
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My Keitt tree is also very lean and leggy. I recall reading in one of my mango or gardening books that is the normal growth pattern for the Keitt in hot and humid South Florida.

    To weigh down new branches, I make little weights similar to christmas tree ornaments with a few pennies held together with duct tape then hung on the branch with string, works pretty good.

  • puglvr1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Andrew! Glad to hear you've had good results with "pugging"! Again, this is a technic I use and have good results but its NOT recommended for everybody...a lot of people prefer to let their mango trees grow naturally on its own speed and natural growth. Me, not so much,lol...because I prefer shorter and wider trees.

    Marin, I was thinking about how tall that tree is...it would be a little scary having such a tall tree especially with some of the weather we have in summer or tropical storms. A tree pruner(cherry picker) might be a good idea...I bet it will grow wider too after a good pruning. Might be just what it needs to get them to bloom! Hard to believe its that young...it looks like its over 10 yrs old by the size!

    Sun, I don't wait till the branches are 20" either...like Marin mentioned on another thread I do something similar that she does. I prune the tips on mine when they are about about 6"-12" especially since most of my Mango trees are semi dwarf or dwarf... Tip pruning works well for me, they take well to tip pruning just at about any size especially this time of year. Good luck!

    SWrancher, good tips on how to weigh the branches down! Keitt I really believe just has this lanky growth habit...its just the way it wants to grow. That's why its one I had to aggressively tip prune or lightly "pugged". Of course that's when I had leaves, that is,lol...

  • franktank232
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Puglvr-

    I see room for at least 50 more mangoes in your yard.

    Research has shown on apples and many other fruit trees, that bending branches (horizontal) induces early fruiting (and slows growth vs vertical branching). I've used it for many years in my yard. The only problem with excessive pruning is you are delaying early fruiting, that I why I've used branch bending in its place, although I still do prune on branches that are crossing, thick diameter branches, etc (depends on the fruit).

    I have no idea if this applies to mangoes and have yet to see any research, but I'm guessing it probably does to some extent.

  • marinfla
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great info! Thanks!
    Sun-worshiper I enjoyed reading your post. I am going to release some of the tension so the branches are a little more angled upward for strength-- it makes a lot of sense. And I will probably leave them tethered to the rocks for a long time to make sure they don't revert back.

    Franktank- I hope it holds true to Mango trees too! I will come back and post a follow photo in 3-6 months

    swrancher I love the Christmas ornament idea! I will have to find much lighter weights than these rocks to do that with. There is your money invention: weights that can be easily tied to branches for this purpose and reusable with some type of easy fastener! get a patent!

  • adiel
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Marinfla, which fertilizer are you using on your Keitt? (8-3-9, etc)

    Adiel

  • puglvr1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lol Frank...50 more mango trees would be great if I lived in Harry's zone! I can't imagine covering/lighting/heating 50 more trees...I would be admitted in the loony bin!! If I only lived a couple more hours south...I would have at least 20 Mango trees. I wish the real estate market didn't suck so bad or I would move NOW and start my Mango and Lychee Orchard! Gotta win the lotto!

    Sun, great tips on that clothespin trick!

    Good luck with your pruning techniques!

  • mangodog
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OHIO Jay - the Steve Martin of Fruits and Nuts!

    Hilarious....!!!!!!!!!

    Marinfla - I've read that the Keitt becomes long branched but dangly, hanging kind of tree. And that is how mine is acting at the moment, though I think the flower stalks have some thing to do with that, too.....

    are you sure you have a Keitt?

    mangoflojo

  • marinfla
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adiel The fertilizing approach I take is the controlled slow release either 16-4-8 or 10-10-10 (alternating)every 3 months and then twice a month I use a half strength miracle grow and a teaspoon of Epsom Salt mixed into the water I am watering them with.

    Mangodog Yes I am sure it is a Keitt :)

  • sun_worshiper
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Marin. Glad you found my experience useful.

    A bit slow, but as promised here are some pictures of shaping via cloths pin.

    My peach tree around February after pruning to leave only candidate scaffold branches:
    {{gwi:978041}}

    Shaping getting started (see the cloths pins):
    {{gwi:1313564}}

    Here it is today:
    {{gwi:1313566}}

    Close up:
    {{gwi:1313568}}

    Here's a tangerine I'm using the same technique on. Grows slower, and is not as malleable as the peach - it takes a lot of pins to bend it. But it has produced reasonable results:
    {{gwi:1313569}}

    Here it is today. Bit hard to tell, since it's grown so much, but the primary scafolds did hold the shape I gave them with the pins.
    {{gwi:1313570}}

    Thanks Nancy for the information on lateral branch length. I decided to proceed with a minor pugging of my Manilita Mango. Here's the before. As you can see, after untying it from the side stakes, it bounced back into a very vertical "y" shape.
    {{gwi:1313571}}

    Here it is after pugging:
    {{gwi:1313572}}

    Frank, when you bend down branches to induce early fruiting, what angle do you bend them to?

  • marinfla
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Sun Worshiper--good job!!
    I loosened up the ties a bit to let them go upward a bit but they are happy where they are... and doing well so far. I will take a picture in another month when the new growth hardens up a bit. so far so good

  • sun_worshiper
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Looking forward to seeing the results after the new growth hardens off Marin. Good luck!

  • cath41
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Spreaders are another method used in shaping fruit trees. Sticks are sold for this purpose but any stick with reasonable girth and notches or splits in both ends works. Where you want a wider angle between two branches the spreader is placed between them with one branch fitting into a notch in the spreader and the other branch fitting into the notch at the other end of the spreader. Gently slide the spreader down toward the "Y" where the two branches meet until you have the angle you want.

    Another method that I have used is tying the branch to a brick lying on the ground. I have a lot of bricks and they are the kind that have holes in them so this was convenient. I tied the twine to the brick and the other end over the branch. When it was snugged into the right angle I tied it off. This was easier, for me anyway, than hanging weights. Hope this helps.

    Cath

  • sun_worshiper
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Cath. I've heard about that technique but not tried it. Do you know where to buy spreaders? Or how to make them?

  • cath41
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Over the years I have seen them in nursery catalogs that carry fruit trees but cannot now recall which specific catalogs. They are rectangular in cross-section. Our yard is wooded and having plenty of suitable sticks, I make them. I would use a stick about 1/2" to 3/4" in diameter, making a split about 1/2" to 3/4" long from each end without breaking off the side pieces, the only hard part. Gently splay the ends a little on either side of the split, just enough to wedge/hold each branch. The notches in the spreaders and the splits in the sticks are to just keep them from slipping sideways off of the branch. I have used sticks without the splits but they slip out sooner or later (usually sooner) becoming dislodged with any breeze.

    Cath

  • sun_worshiper
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Cath for the instructions on how to build spreader sticks. I don't have wooded yard, but I'm sure I can find a source of small sticks to give it a try.

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