Definitely NOT a Hak Ip/Sweetheart parallelism here. With the two mangoes, there is no question that Zills created the two distinct "varieties" as they are definitely that, two varieties. There is no question of them creating a variety/name/trademark from one that already exists. With the lychees, well, lets just say there is some question of the details behind the trademark and the true distinction between the two with respect to the naming of Sweetheart.

We will have to see what our backyard LZ trees do. Time will tell how productive the Lemon Zest is. Zill or anyone is going to have a hard time saying it isn't. Has anyone seen a Lemon Zest tree with fruit on it? To see how much fruit is on it?

Aside from LZ productivity predictions, a dry winter is predicted for South Florida which is conducive to mango production

"Enjoy the green grass now because it probably won't make it through the winter.

At their annual dry season outlook briefing Friday, experts from the National Weather Service and South Florida Water Management District predicted another drought.

La Nina conditions in the Pacific will lead to below average rainfall, but the relatively good news is that this winter's drought will likely be less severe than last winter's, said Robert Molleda, warning coordination meterologist for the NWS."
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/weather-news/dry-season-forecast-to-be-drier-than-normal-1926981.html

Funny... I own three trees I purchased directly from Zills with dual names..

A Mango Tree with a yellow tag labeled "Lemon Zest" with a handwritten label on the pot OS.

Then during the same visit I also purchased two Lychee trees white tagged "Sweeetheart Lychee" with a handwritten label on the pot HI, and purchased as a Hak Ip.

I have heard they have done Genetic studies on the lychee varieties and found the two to be the same.

Im not accusing the Zill Nursery of selling two mangos as one, all I am stating is the fact that by labeling something with two names you introduce the possiblity of later propagation with the incorrect lineage, thus creating the possiblity of the same thing happening...

Thats why if you really want to purchase a certain variety, you have to be really careful who you purchase them from. Until a tree fruits, you can only go by a label or tag... Or the misinformation of a poorly organized retailer.......

Well, here is pic of my new "orange sherbet" tree.

invar69 ---
Looking good! Nice thick base (at graft area) and thick trunk to build on. My planted (in July) Lemon Zest from Jeff Hagen/Zill put forth new growth this week after waiting a while so its all good. The new growth was big floppy leaves same as yours

Despite what Top says, do NOT call your mango Orange Sherbet as that is NOT what variety it is. If you have any question, call Zills and ask. They have not released OS yet, and have no time frame as of this time, as it is in the process of being patented. Lemon Zest is NOT patented and they do not have plans to do so at this time. They are two "different" plants. Yes, they are both PPK seedlings but they do have differing tastes. Nothing good will come of you calling it OS. Not only is it not correct to call it OS but will only lead to misnaming issues should you or anybody ever graft from it once the name is patented (not to mention the potential patent law issues).

Rob

zands, that's good to hear. Now hopefully the freezes stay away and we get a nice productive crop. Last season's was so-so and 2010 was an awful season for mango, so maybe we're due for a 'good' year.

bsb --

Invar put quotes around it "orange sherbet" ...... Indicating to me he knows it is not "orange sherbet" but an LZ because you yourself (and others) gave him the lowdown in this thread.

OT but the best mangoes I had last year (Florida) were some Kents off a big ol tree and some small peach/rootstock/turpentine off a big ol tree //// also some Hadens and Carries. Maybe the older the tree the better the mango. As good or better (certain days) than the Lemon Zest samples I had courtesy Jeff Hagen from Zill trees. To me LZ has that unique orange sherbet flavor but the old warhorses rank just as high, just different.

I have mine labeled "Lemon Cream" :)

invar69, from the photo - that's a Lemon Zest. It's a nice looking one.

Jeff

I guess there's not much to fret about in the LZ v OS debate. After speaking with Gary's sister, it turns out that they may never even release the Orange Sherbet; it's too similar to the Lemon Zest.

Jeff

With all due repsect to Gary's sister's commments and those comments notwithstanding....they were patenting OS but now may not release it because it is too similar to LZ??? WTF.....something doesn't sound quite right. I think there is more to this story than what we are being led to believe.

Harry

Harry... I've worked with Marlys for quite a while and don't know her to be a liar. Feel free to call them up yourself. Just ask to speak with Marlys, as not everyone in the office is as knowledgeable as her.

The fact that they went back and forth with the naming, changing the name 3 times (corroborated with Sheehan) only bolsters what I was told. They made some decisions before a full evaluation of both trees was done.

She indicated that Gary may go ahead and patent it, but will likely not release it. Please ask Sheehan about the patent and the real motive behind it.

Jeff

I spoke to Tracey at Zill's yesterday, she told me that they may never release the Orange Sherbet trees, Patent the name, then mass plant them and sell the mangoes! Kind of like the Slim-cado. I like this topic, its like a drama unfolding..

HAHAHAHA Thanks for the info, PJ. It sounds like we are getting the straight scoop then if two folks are saying the same thing.

Jeff

Jeff:

I did not mean to insinuate that you were not to be believed nor that you got the story wrong from Zill's sister or otherwise. I don't think Zills is either telling the whole story or maybe they just can't make up their collective minds on what they want to do. Seems odd to patent a name to sell a fruit after mass planting when you have previouly sold a whole $hitload of LZ mango trees that produce fruit that is very similar in flavor. I don't know...it just doesn't make sense to me. But maybe this is just way over my head and falls under the classification of being "a mystery of faith" and we just have to accept the fact that Zills knows what's best for them and the rest of the mango loving world.

Harry

Ahh OK. Misunderstanding detected :-). I think what it boils down to is that they initially saw the orange sherbet as being more productive (based on the harvest of 2010), but later realized that it was just a fluke. Remember - they had originally crowned the 27-1 with the orange sherbet name and were going to patent it.

Jeff

I will chime in with just this as I am not going to throw "stories" around. I am with Harry here as I have heard a slightly different story as recent as last week when I inquired about the invar actually obtaining an OS from Tops. And as far as selling the fruit, Zills is not Hatchers nor are they retail. They sell the mangoes to certain people and they are sold fairly cheap for the quality of fruit they sell. It makes no sense whatsoever to plant a bunch of trees for the sole purpose of selectively selling the fruit (makes no economic sense) and I don't see them going commercial for this purpose.

Rob

I will add this, they said they don;t want to release OS cause it is too similar/nearly identical to LZ, then explain Gary and Pina Colada...

Hi,

For anyone who has tasted Sherbert/Lemon Zest Mango, do they have more citrus flavor than Valencia Pride? That's one of my favorite mangoes just because of the citrus flavor.

Tomas

bsbullie - your experience is similar to mine. As of about 2 weeks ago, I was told that OS would be released for sale next year. Things change pretty rapidly over there. It's important to call on a pretty regular basis to get the most up to date info when you're buying trees from them. It was the same situation last year just before the 27-1 went up for sale.

As for VP vs LZ: They are totally different. The VP has a tart-ish flavor, while the LZ has an orangey flavor. It's a flavor I've never tasted in any other mango. It's very unique.

Jeff

Jeff hit it on the head, with both issues.

With that being said, and with the info that has been given to some, don't be surprised to see OS released within the month :) Well, I have no "inside scoop" to this, just stating to always expect the unexpected when it comes to issues like this, especially with something as questioned and controversial as OS. After all, the Coconut Cream was not supposed to be released when it was. Last summer they stated they were going to hold out at least a year before rolling the availability of them for sale. Then lo and behold, CC and LZ were released. You never know whats gonna happen next, just saying...

I am not a fan of VP due to its tart, generic "citrus" flavor. But LZ, now were talking a whole different fruit here. Its not just a citrus flavor but specifically orange; sweet, creamy orange sherbet to be exact.

Rob

Found a pic (well...among other mangoes) of the LZ. This was posted by murahilin back in 2009 :O
Follow up # 10

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tropicalfruits/msg0918113418270.html

LZ is 3rd from bottom right

Hopefully Coconut Cream was in this batch pic and can be i.d. here as well.

TnTRobbie, yea I remember seeing this one also. Just looking for the remaining gems, thanks

Tim

Coco cream is third from the left on the bottom row. The one on the farthest left might also be coco cream.

Thanks for the pics.

The LZ looks just as I imagined.

The CC, totally different ... I thought it would be very round like a Cushman...

Jeff. You're our hero. Thanks.

Jeff,
If I remember correctly, I think there may be a 'Harvest Moon' somewhere in that pic.

OK. It could be the 2nd from the top right? How was the sunrise?

Jeff

Err - I meant 2nd from top left.

Jeff

The sunrise was okay. I can't remember much since that pic was from more than two years ago. The first Lemon Zest fruit I ever had was actually in that pic. I chucked the seed in my friends bushes after we ate it and got done talking about how it was the best mango we ever had. Went back hunting for it the next week but couldn't find it.

After some enlightening info received today, the LZ vs OS saga keeps on turning. I will throw this out there, some of you MAY just have the OS and not even know it...

Also, I am not sure that mango is the Harvest Moon. Color does not look completely correct and the shape may be off too (the shape MAY just be the angle but the color does not look right compared to the ones I have seen over the last two years).

Rob

@bsb
In February I got a 27-1 from Jeff Hagen which he said was Lemon Zest. I planted it. Two weeks ago I came across the black pot it came in and it was marked OS (for Orange Sherbet) in the unmistakable way Zill marks them

My tree tagged "Lemon Zest AKA 27-1" was in a pot marked OS. Wonder if they are all like that?

Its not necessarily about what is written on the pots that is the issue. LZs that are coming out of Zills today may still have OS written on it.

Rob

The Lemon Zests that I purchased from Zill's all had OS on the pots.. But again I purchased a couple Hak Ip Lychee with Sweetheart Tags and HI on the pots.

The funny thing is that other than us psycho's most people still plant mango seeds for fruit.

I asked my neighbor what type of mango tree he wanted, he looked at me like I had three eyes!

I guess when you are a collector, the concern is that you can pinpoint what you have. Although I have seen many posts in the past of pictures of fruit hanging from trees from reputable nurseries that dont match the tags. The sad thing is it all comes down to the final moment when the tags are hung.. After that all bets are off till fruiting!

OK.....so enough was enough. My friend (a good friend of Gary Zill) and I went up to Zill's yesterday to find out, once and for all, what the true story was behind this controversy. We got up there about 9 am and we set down with Gary with a cup of coffee and some mango scones. Pretty good tasting actually....not sure if the were home baked or bought somewhere. After some some talk and perfunctory chatter, I sprung the question on him. "WTF is the story with your Lemon Zest and Orange Sherbet??", I said with a firm but inquisitive voice. He laughed. The laugh was laced with a slight tinge of evil. He stopped chuckling when he saw that I really wasn't amused. I am sure my face made that very clear. Clearing his throat, Gary said, "Let's go see.....I'll show you what we're doing." We got on a golf cart and headed down a couple of dirt roads. While we were driving, we chatted about the Tropical Fruit Forum and the turmoil that has been taking place. He said that he occasionally checks out the Forum but hasn't in a while. I mentioned some of the regular posters and the only names that he reacted to were Rob and Jeff. He said that he thought Rob was a double agent working for Excalibur Nursery, who was bosom buddies with Richard Wilson. He said Jeff was a more mysterious guy. Gary said that Jeff's wife was a lot more fun than he was. Anyway, he took us to a large planting area. Began looking around and then a look of bewilderment came over his face. He started screaming for the worker who was across the way on the other side of the main planting area. Gary spoke Spanish to the guy. Loosely translated, he said, "Where the hell did the Orange Sherbet trees go?" The worker started crying and fearfully recounted this group of Russians coming into the nursery during the week, making an "offer that he could not refuse" and off they went with each and everyone of the potted Orange Sherbet trees. Gary fell to the ground weeping. I tried to console him, but he was inconsolable. Then I woke up, it was all just a bad dream.

HAHAHA I was having an "oh sh$t" moment until you mentioned "Then I woke up". From then on I started laughing. lol

I knew a little better since Gary is in Costa Rica :)

Come on Harry, mango scones :P

lmao. Great one Harry.

I knew something was fishy with the story when I read "mango scones". Entertaining though :P.

Mango scones do exist..

http://ohboykarencooks.blogspot.com/2010/05/mango-scones.html

Nice one Harry !

U got me :)

Do a search for -mango chutney- or -mango steak- or -mango roast duck- or -mango salsa-
All kinds of recipes have been dreamt up using mangoes

HAHAHAHAHA :-) Hey bsbullie, what's the scoop with the orange sherbet? Did they mix the two?

Jeff

Jeff - sent you an email.

Thanks, Harry, that story made my week.

Does anyone know when the Orange Sherbet and the Lemon Zest fruit ripen here in South Florida ?

So what's the latest? Was Orange sherbet ever released and if so does it trump Lemon Zest?

Does lemon zest trump it's parent PPK/Lemon Meringue for flavor and a better tree? When is it in season? What size is it?