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tropicdude

Maha Chinook, Coconut Cream or Lemon Zest?

tropicdude
12 years ago

I am visiting Fla. and I want to pick up 1 mango tree to take back with me to the Dom. Rep.

I have seen lots of positive comments on the above mango varieties.

I am hoping someone will help me make out on deciding.

If you could only have one of these . Maha Chinook, Coconut Cream, or Lemon Zest. which one would you have?

I know taste is a personal thing which one tastes the best in your opinion?

I would like something with a rich complex flavor and aroma, that can be grown in a container and relatively easy to take care of. ( not too susceptible to disease ).

Comments (39)

  • bsbullie
    12 years ago

    As stated, the responses you will get will be very subjective. My answer, Mahachanok. It has excellent flavor and sweetness. It is a very good producer with an extended harvest season (all of the fruit do not seem to ripen at once, at least from my observations here in SFla). The flesh to seed ration is outstanding with the seed being paper thin.

    Coco Cream and Lemon Zest are excellent, top tier mangoes, don't get me wrong. If you are looking for one with a string coconut flavor, then Coco Cream would be your choice. If you want one with an orangey sherbet taste, then LZ is your choice...BUT, I have my doubts as to how well you could grow and fruit the LZ and Coco Cream in Pots. The Mahachanok, from the growth habit I have witnessed from the initial trees brought back from Thailand, could be kept in a pot but you would ultimately want it in a very minimum a 50 gallon pot, probably more like a 100 gallon for best growth and production (though you could try the LZ and Coco Cream in very large pots, I think the Mahachanok will thrive much better being kept in a pot).

    All three have a rich flavor but as far as complex, not sure (I MIGHT say the Mahachanok is the most complex but thats only because the Coco Cream's flavor is that of coconut and the LZ is that of orangey sherbet). In my opinion, Mallika has one of the most complex flavors.

    The final factor would be your ability of getting the tree home with you. Is size a factor ? Where do you plan on getting them ? Excalibur has all three. Zils should have the Coco Cream and LZ, if you have the means (though they may sell to you by just showing up there). Jeff Hagen may also have the LZ and Coco Cream.

    As to your comment on Edward, though it is a very good mango it is not in the same class as the three you are inquiring about. Another funny tidbit, Coco Cream is a cross between an Edward and Gary....

    Hope any, some or all of this helped.

    Rob

  • NatsGarden123
    12 years ago

    I would be surprised if you could take a plant out of the country due to quarantine conditions....My answer to which one is why not all three!

  • squam256
    12 years ago

    Coconut Cream's pedigree doesn't seem like it would lend it any favors production-wise.

    Rob or anyone else who has seen the coco cream trees fruiting...how does its production rate?

  • jeffhagen
    12 years ago

    The coco cream and sweet tart are both reported to be heavy bearers.

    I do have plenty coco cream and lemon zest trees for sale.

    Personally, I'd say that the LZ bests any mango I've eaten when rating on taste alone. When factoring in other qualities like production, long season, etc, there may indeed be better mangoes.

    The folk at Zill's will generally run you off if you don't have legitimate proof that you own a business. From the stories I've heard, it's not a pleasant experience, especially if Gary is around.

    Jeff

  • tropicalgrower89
    12 years ago

    And if you get there while Gary is having a bad day, you might be unlucky enough to find out whether you run faster than his pitbull or not.


    Just kidding.

    Mango scone anyone? :-)

  • TnTRobbie
    12 years ago

    BTW, what is Coconut Cream pedigree? I've read on here that LZ is PPK. But nothing on CC. Thanks.

  • tropicdude
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Well i made the drive up to Excalibur, and picked up a Maha Chinook, even met Rob out there, didn't get the chance to give him a big thanks, so to Rob and the other members here, thank you for the advice and tips :)

    I was like a kid in a candy store, had to muster up all my will power to just buy 1 tree.

    I will most likely get a LZ and CC on future trips. the way I transport these, is I bare root them, and put them in
    one of those cardboard tubes you use for mailing blueprints or art. space is limited so I can only take 1 rooted tree at a time.

    I have a Lancentilla, Nam Doc Mai, Ice cream, and a Pascual so far. an Alphonso I took back with me didn't survive the trip as the graft point was way up on the trunk, which only left me a few inches of Scion after cutting it back to fit in my tube.

    luckily I found a source for Alphonso in the D.R. and have 2 ordered for grafting. from what I gather, Alphonso has not lived up to its reputation here in Florida as it has done in its native land. I will be planting these in a Semi-arid zone of the country. so maybe they will reach their potential there, taste wise.

    I feel I have been bitten by the mango tree collecting bug that seems to have gotten to most of the members here.

  • bsbullie
    12 years ago

    TnT - Coco Cream pedigree is Edward/Gary.

    Tropicdude - Hey, no problem, glad to be of help. Another variety I would recommend is a Mallika, which can also be kept on the small side.

    Squam - I have never seen the fruiting trees. From what I hear it does not have a production issue. Edward may not be super productive but Gary is a very good producer.

    Rob

  • jeffhagen
    12 years ago

    Gary's sister has a mature coco cream on her property which she says has born heavily for her. Whether this holds true to all coco creams, I don't know. But it sounds promising. Perhaps that's why it was the only cultivar chosen to be patented, despite the fact that many folks that I've talked to prefer the flavor of the lemon zest to coco cream.

    Sweet Tart is supposed to bear heavily and in clusters. I'm really looking forward to trying that one next year.

    I think a lot of the new Zill mangoes are crosses with the Gary (which is a very creamy mango). From the mangoes I've tried so far, it seems that Gary has a strong preference for creamy mangoes.

    The one interesting thing I noticed about the Gary mango and others like it (eg, the Pina Colada) is that they don't have a problem with internal breakdown and taste exceptional even when way overripe.

    Internal breakdown seems to be a consistent problem for the mid/late season fiberless mangoes here in South Florida, especially those grown in muck soil. Some years I find myself having to pick some mangoes (eg, nam doc mai) a couple weeks early to mitigate the internal breakdown (jelly seed) issue.

    Jeff

  • bsbullie
    12 years ago

    Jeff - while Gary does hold it flavor when overripe, it does seriously breakdown. Not in the terms of jelly seed, but the flesh actually gets mushy, like an overripe Carrie. Gary has that fine line from underripe (poor taste and texture), to optimal (in terms of taste and texture) to overripe (still taste good but soft/mushy texture).

    As to Sweet tart, unless what I had was a very poor representation, it was not that great of a mango taste-wise (again, a subjective thing).

    Coco Cream - awesome
    LZ - awesome

    Which is better...hmmm, not sure if I can give that answer. One of those things that it might be as you actually eat it, that specific variety is better.

    Rob

  • jeffhagen
    12 years ago

    True Gary does get mushy, but it's not watery like with jelly seed. Also the flavor actually improves (in my opin) when overripe. I simply bite a hole in the skin and squeeze out Gary mango creamy delight :-).

    I guess it's subjective but I cannot eat a mango with internal breakdown (jelly seed). Not only does the flesh get watery but the flavor is wretched. And, overripe carrie mangoes are really gross - too overpowering. But, oddly my wife will happily eat either :-).

    6 months til mango season :-).

    Jeff

  • tropicdude
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Update:

    I found the perfect way to solve this problem.....

    I GOT ALL 3.

    The Maha Chinook as mentioned I picked up at Excalibur,

    Then I got in touch with Jeff, and I made the trip up there, and picked up a CC and LZ.

    The CC was big. and I was going to plant it at my mothers house in Hollywood Fla. but then I realized there really isn't much room left in the yard.

    So I cut it in half !!! poor thing.

    the LZ was small 1 gallon, so no need to prune.

    this is what I did.

    I removed the trees from the pots, and cleaned the roots as careful as possible to not break them.

    I removed all the leafs, and cut the main stem so that it would fit in a long cardboard tube for protection.

    I wrapped the entire stem with parafilm M tape.

    The roots I wrapped in a wet paper towel, and then wrapped with plastic.

    they only stayed this way for about 24 hours. I have already potted them in the Dominican Republic.
    I left the parafilm on the main stem, with the hopes this will prevent them from drying out, not sure if its necessary really, or beneficial.

    the smaller trees ( Lemon Zest and a couple seedlings from my Valencia Pride ) I didn't need to cut them, but I did remove the leaves. and did the parafilm/plastic thingy like the others.

    I did take picture, I'll get them up to photobucket soon and post them here.

    any comments on the parafilm?

  • jeffhagen
    12 years ago

    A good way to bare root a mango is to cut the leaves in half (just leaving 1/2 of each leaf). They actually don't mind being bare-rooted that much. They are quite drought tolerant. You'd be surprised - you can yank a 5 foot tall mango seedling out of the ground, pot it up, and it could care less :-).

    But, unlike an avocado the mango doesn't really like being leafless, so it's a good idea to leave at least a portion of a few leaves for smaller mango trees. Larger trees have sufficient carbo reserves to leaf back out. But smaller (1gal) sized mango trees can sometimes die back and try to root from the base (below the graft).

    You would be ok removing the parafilm. The mango is very drought tolerant and without leaves, it can't evaporate much water anyhow.

    I hope the LZ makes it.

    Jeff

  • murahilin
    12 years ago

    tropicdude,
    Why did you remove all of the leaves?

  • tropicdude
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    @murahilin I put the trees in a cardboard tube, and there wasn't that much space. but I never thought about just cutting the leaves in half. wish I had done that.

    I have brought other mangoes in the past, 1 didn't make it which I believe is because the graft was way up high, so when I cut it back, all I had was just a few inches of the scion part.

    all i can do now is keep my fingers crossed. my biggest worry is with the smaller seedlings and the LZ. which were pretty small, but I did not cut them back so hopefully i will get some new leaves.

    @Jeff yes me too, I am so excited with my new trees, I look forward to eating these marvelous new mango varieties someday. next time I will make sure to leave a few leaves somehow, even if these make it through.

  • tropicdude
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Not for the faint hearted.

    Coconut Cream before

    Coconut Cream before 2

    Maha Chinook before

    Maha Chinook before 2

    And this is how I packed them:

    Believe it or not, the roots are all there.

  • johnb51
    12 years ago

    Yikes! Definitely not for the faint-hearted. May the Mango spirit bless those sticks and make them survive!

  • jsvand5
    12 years ago

    I wish you luck with them, but I will agree with the others about removing the leaves. Especially with them just being bare rooted I think you may lose some.

  • pj1881
    12 years ago

    Maybe a systemic fungicide (light) in the hydration bucket prior to repotting for a few minutes to avoid any added stress with rot, followed by regular heavy misting of the "sticks" with water/foliar nutrition to try to feed the cadmium layer?? Thats a pretty heavy shock..

  • jeffhagen
    12 years ago

    The 2 bigger trees will be perfectly fine. They have plenty of wood to push out new leaves. Mangoes are pretty resilient to being bare rooted too. The only one I'd worry about is the little 1gal tree.

    Jeff

  • esco_socal
    12 years ago

    Jeff,
    I know you've said mangos are pretty touch and can take some abuse. But what about sitting in a box for 1 week because usps just can't seem to do anything right?

    Has anyone else dealt with this? feel free to chime in

    Tim

  • jeffhagen
    12 years ago

    1 week in a box is probably in the risky category :-). 1 day bare root is pretty easy. I've yanked 5 foot tall seedlings (planted by the neighborhood raccoons) out of the ground, let them sit until the next day, and potted them up to no ill effect. Newly flushing foliage will die though.

    Jeff

  • tropicdude
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Update:

    I have to say I am very happy my "sticks" survived, and have leaves again.

    If you remember this is what my trees looked like after I basically chopped them in half, and removed all the leaves.

    And these photos were taken today, about 5 weeks later.

    Coconut Cream

    Maha Chinook

    Even the 1 gallon small Lemon Zest made it ( left ), I should have never removed all the leaves from the smaller plant, but it almost has all the leaves it had on it originally, and I mean it was basically a just a twig,

    As an added bonus, I kept the cuttings from the original plants, and used them to practice grafting, even though the odds were against success, I got 1 out of 4.

    I didn't put the graft on until about 1 week after, the scion was not bulging, and its been relatively cool here.

  • mangodog
    12 years ago

    tropic dude - FANTASTIC results...you must be ecstatic - Back home with the plants and the family you love, all growing happily together!!!!!!!!!

    If there is a slice of heaven, it is in the Dominican Republic this 14th day of January, 2012.....

    MahaMangoPup

  • tropicdude
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Thank you mangodog for those kind words, yes I am happy to be back with the wife and kids. and pleased with the growth, actually all you see grew out in like 3 weeks, the first couple, all I had was a stick in a pot.

  • lycheeluva
    12 years ago

    nice work and really sweet kid. enjoy.

  • jeffhagen
    12 years ago

    Awesome! That tropical climate certainly helps the recovery process.

    Jeff

  • pikorazi
    12 years ago

    Awesome! Now it would be interesting to know how LZ performs in your tropical climate, compared to FL. Will you keep the mangos in pots?

    Felipe

  • tropicdude
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    @Lychee Madison loves accompanying me in the back yard, but I have to be careful, she pulled out a Mangosteen a few months back, and it didn't survive, but she is a doll.

    @Jeff, When I mention it being cool, that means we get way down to 64F at night, daytime temps have been around, 80-85, not as cool this winter as last year during the day.

    @piko I am not sure yet, I really hope I can get my own property some day, and I would prefer to plant it in the ground, in the mean time, it will stay in a container. I may try and get another LZ when I go back to the States, in April, this way I can keep one home and the other plant in the semi arid area of Azua. Mangoes do a lot better out west in this country, because of the lower humidity and rainfall. Since I had success with the Coconut cream, I may keep the original I brought from the US, and plant the grafted one, out there, the "Banilejo" root stock it has, is a big tree, and probably will do better in the ground. I suspect "Banilejo" comes from the Bombay mango. they look similar.

    I also brought 2 seedlings from my mothers, Valencia Pride, they also survived, they are just now pushing out leaves, I will definitely get these in the ground. its amazing these even made it, they were very small, and I broke off most the root system when getting them out of the ground.

  • jsvand5
    12 years ago

    Since you seem to have at least some success with grafting why not just try to make duplicates of all of them once they put out some more growth? That way you could plant one of each variety in the ground where they will grow better and still have duplicates in case you have to move at some point.

  • tropicdude
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    @jsvand

    Actually that is my long term plan, find out what grows best between these varieties, and then graft many, my dream is to someday have a plantation of high quality organic mangoes for speciality market.

    The LZ was a small 1 gallon plant, and it will be some time, before I can prune it to get cuttings. so I may just pick up another in Fla in April, maybe one that has branched, which I can also use the cuttings off of.

    It will be interesting to see how these trees vary in growth with "Banilejo" rootstock.

    plus I need to keep practicing with grafting, I am more the butcher than a surgeon lol.

  • pikorazi
    12 years ago

    Tropic-D,

    very nice idea of an organic orchad... but, why do you want to get another LZ?! I would rather pic other cultivars to add to your collection. You can graft, so now you can propagate yourself as many LZs as you want.

    If I were you, I would raise many seedlings. When you go back to FL, you should pick budwood from many cvs and then graft them... my opinion ;-)

    Saludos!

  • tropicdude
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    @Piko the reason is many of the other varieties are available locally, the Ex-President Hipolito Mehia, has an experimental farm and has over 150 varieties of mango. I am friends with his head agriculture man. I was able to get so far, a Nam Doc Mai, and an Ice Cream, from him, and he says he has grafted a couple Alphonso for me.

    On a previous trip I picked up a Lancetilla, but I do not think I will go wrong with what seems to be some of the favorites in the forum, Lemon Zest, Coconut Cream, and Maha Chinook, I may pick up another variety in the states, because even though many are available here, the Ex-Pres, is running for office this year, and well, I do not even want to go over there now unless he is off the farm doing political stuff.

    I did bring other stuff not mango related on last trip, Yacon, Fig, for example. I am interested in maybe getting a Oro Negro avocado.

    But yeah if I can get my hands on some mango scions, in April, I will bring them over, they are so much easier to pack. lots of good varieties to be had.

    What I have so far in the Mango Dept.
    Lancetilla
    Ice Cream
    Lemon Zest
    Coconut cream
    Pascual
    Alphonso ( soon )
    Nam Doc Mai

    Not a big list as compared to some of the veteran mango nuts in here, I am still a mango nut in training :)

  • sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
    12 years ago

    Both the LZ and the Coconut Cream sound heavenly! So this might be a dumb question but does the Coconut Cream have any coconut flavor to it?

    tropicdude: Your daughter is just adorable! Congrats on getting your trees. You did an amazing job with them.

    Lenette

  • tropicdude
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Thank you Lenette.

    I haven't tasted any of these yet, I put my trust in the claims of all the Mango aficionados here.

    The leaves actually have a lemony smell, the Coconut cream, has a stronger scent than even the Lemon Zest.

    New leaves on the CC had some aphids on them, the day i took this picture, just washed them off, and they haven't come back , I guess they were taking advantage of the tender young leaves.
    as they become greener I suspect this tree will be pretty pest free.

  • adiel
    12 years ago

    Congrats tropicdude! They made a beautiful comeback.

    Adiel

  • tropicdude
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Another update:

    The original 1 gal. lemon zest, did not survive, after the original push of two leaves, it didn't push anymore , and then dried up. I guess the poor plant used up all its reserves to push those two leaves and stressed beyond its limit.

    So i picked up a 3 gal. in April, and that one is doing just fine.

    The Coconut Cream has had another flush , and is looking great.

    Also on this last trip i brought back a Florida Hass, and I made sure not to remove all the leaves.

  • puglvr1
    11 years ago

    Sorry to hear about your lemon zest, but great news you were able to replace it. Congrats on the CC...Best of luck with all your trees!!

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