NatsGarden123----
Your newly planted Harvest Moon is looking good. If you plant closer to the road you might get mango thieves. Being very large, Lancetilla would attract them. Does it take a long time to mature on the tree? If so, it could provide a few months of temptation to normally honest people.

Hatcher mango? I'm pretty sure that on a recent thread people were saying it's nothing special. The new Nam Doc Mai #4 variety is a compact tree and is worth consideration. It is an IndoChinese variety same as Maha Chanook so should be in the same ballpark as a taste. I have eaten NDM#4 and have one planted that should fruit in 2012. I have never eaten Maha Chanook

Fairchild mango is a small tree + I like the taste. The fruit is nothing much to look at which makes it less a target for mango rustlers. Have two planted.

Lemon Zest--- Unique orangey taste I liked. Have one planted

Pim Saen Mun (PSM) ----- Some people really like this one, saying it gets very sweet. Another IndoChinese mango. Have a very nice Zill one planted I got from Jeff Hagen

Here is a link that might be useful: Pim Saen Mun (PSM)

:-) I guess the solution is to buy both the MC and the LZ and then eventually topwork the loser.

Ad hominem attacks aside, I do know that not everyone who has tried the MC considers it in the top tier. Whether Mrs Nat is in that group is yet unknown; I just want folks to know that there is two sides to the issue. There are seasoned rare fruiters out there who would rank the LZ higher than the MC. So - buyer beware.

I agree with bsbullie on the lancetilla. It's big and pretty, but very mediocre when it comes to flavor. My wife likes it because it has a jelly like consistency. To me the smaller fruits tend to be the more flavorful.

The info on the BM rootstock issue was from Har who worked at zill's HPP for quite a few years. Quite interesting. Har is a walking encyclopedia of agriculture.

Jeff

Lemon Zest. :-)

Ms Nat is a novice... :)
I have tasted haden, valencia pride, nam doc mai (not #4-never even heard of it), carrie, mallika, fairchild, lancetilla, baileys marvel, golden nugget, choc a non, and jakarta..probably others. I have never tasted the LS or the maha chanook. BUT I do love experimenting and planting new things. Hence, the Harvest Moon.
My next two trees will probably be bothe the LS and the maha since I'm sure that they will bothe be delicious! I'm putting aside the lancetilla..sounds like it may be a problem to
grow...don't want another tortuous julie . The Baileys Marvel fruit was (is) amazing from my tree (my sisters tree now) so it may be a choice in the future
As far as mango thieves, my sister lost at least half of her fruit!. But my neighborhood is very secure and I haven't had any issues.

My friend lives in a gated community where lawn mowing was included, and the damned gardeners were stealing his fruit! The association switched companies, and the new gardeners, having been instructed properly, now respect his fruit. He had so many Choquette avocados this year that he probably wouldn't have missed a few! But no Keitts on his beautiful tree.

Wow, what a thread! Between the anecdotes of Harry and Jeff I can wait to fruit a MC,CC and HM! but, as MangoDog says, it's to be interesting to compare the taste between Southern California and South Florida. From the Florida mangos I have fruited here in La Habra, there is no comparison to those cheap Home Depot Manilas we grow in Socal.

JF

I will have scion available in spring for Floridians. I like to hear how this mango works down in Florida. IMO, this is, by far, the premium mango from Southern California.

JF

To clarify what zands wrote: There is no similarity whatsoever between NDM/NDM#4 and Mahachanok. The have two TOTALLY different tastes.

Rob

How is it that we have no Manila (aka Ataulfo or Champagne)mango trees growing here in South Florida? If it were as great as JF says, compared to Florida varieties, wouldn't Richard Campbell be growing it and wouldn't the Zills (or PIN)be propagating it?

I do not think Manila and Ataulfo are the same mango, but I do know that Ataulfo supposedly has some problems in Florida's climate.

Campbell and Fairchild have recently promoted 'Manilita', which is from that line. Pretty boring mango flavor-wise.

What do you guys think of Gold Nugget Mango?

@bsbullie I think I have the older variety NDM not#4 which is better between the two or are they both good just different?

Only difference should be the growth habit of the tree and possibly the fruiting season.

Rob

Harry make sure Sheehan brings over some Bombay along with LZ to copare with MC.

the next new rage.....turpentine mangoes.:)

-Ethan

null, the Gold Nugget mangoes I've tried have been a little washed out in flavor; its a later season mango and thus it was likely due to excessive rain.

The advantages are that its late season (if you desire that) and pretty productive and fungus resistant from what I've observed.

Yeah....Gold Nugget is later, disease resistant, productive but the flavor leaves you wanting....again as compared to the better cultivars. The other later varieties...Keitt, Kent, Beverly and Neelum are all superior in flavor...at least at my house and in my humble opinion. Still, 1000% better than a store bought mango, but on this Forum, us mango snobs give it a pretty rough time on the flavor evaluation.

Harry

tropicdude---
The original Nam Doc Mai was a larger grower. If you see a Pine Island NDM at Home Depot it says NDM even though it is a NDM #4. Dittos for the Zill tag I believe. For sure it is a #4 but it will simply say Nam Doc Mai.

My understanding is NDM #4 replaced the original NDM at Zill and Pine Island starting about 5 years ago. The NDM #4 is smaller tree. Slower grower but more reliable fruit bearer so I have been told. It puts more resources into fruiting than into foliage compared to the original NDM.

Out on the West Coast? Who knows. Maybe some are propagating the original Nam Doc Mai via grafting or as a seedling. But out there some nurseries get Pine Island items so..... if you find an NDM with Pine Island tag it is NDM#4

I suppose I'll chime in as well.

Flavor and ranking mango's is very subjective and difficult.. Growing conditions, when the mango is picked, seasonal changes, weather, nutrition, etc. all have impacts on flavor. I have had mango's from the very same tree that varied between OK and superb.

Also, a mango tasted in isolation may seem much better than when multiple varieties are put up against each other at the same time.

All that being said, we can try to make generalizations about some varieties. I like Harry's way of putting mango's into sort of classes like "top tier", etc.

I have not tried LZ, HM, CC, or PC. I have planted all of those going by Jeff's recommendations. I do very much like what is produced by Zill, so I am banking on these being great. I very much like Carrie and Julie.

I have tried Maha Chanook at Harry's. It definitely is a top tier mango. It was not however the best mango I tried that day. The #1 at that tasting was far and away a variety called "Thai Everbearing" It had a large seed, and kind of strange colored flesh, but the taste .... totally unbelievable, I was not ready for it, and I was blown away. #2 that day, I do not remember the variety, but it was from a very large tree near the front of his property. It was fantastic as well. #3 that day was Carrie, and #4 I believe was the MC.

Also, I have had ValCarries at the fruit and spice park, that stood out as the best of many tasted on that day.

At a "Mango Madness" where I must have tasted 50 varieties, Hindi Bessenara stood out as the #1 for me.

So as you can see, It is tough to call any variety the #1 .....

The mango mentioned by Sleep in the front of my property is Southern Blush......which, on a good day, is as good as any and much better than most. Thai Everbearing is a curious little mango which does indeed have a very rich, sort of spicy flavor. If it had a better flesh to seed ratio it would really be a fantastic mango even without regard to its sporadic blooming and potential for off season crops. Sadly, the seed is absolutely huge and this takes it down a notch overall in my evaluation. However, it has won first prize on a number of tasting tables over the years.

From the Nam Doc Mai's we've tasted my father and I agree that they taste like spiced honey. The Bailey's Marvel is very good but it has a slight aspartame-ish taste to me...I would prefer a Kent or an Edward over the BM. A ripe Mallika is truly excellent but in my experience from 1 tree, the fruits have to be picked at the right time...left too long on the tree and they taste horrible. They are best picked green and allowed to ripen. I have yet to try LZ or CC. I have eaten a variety called "Sunset" which is very coco-nutty but the flavor is too much after 1 mango. Talk about subjective taste, my father has a 10' Florigon that produced for the first time last year; after eating a couple of fruit I encouraged him to yank it and put in another variety. I still refer to it as the "Florigoner." I found it insipid. However in a mango competition at his house 2 of the women involved in judging picked it as their favorite. Let me note that they were both from the northeast and were mango-rookies. : )
I have a 4' Cushman (which I remember Harry saying was a top tier one) and a 3' Po Pyu Kalay; two mangos I've never tried but have heard rave reviews on. Can anyone opine on the Po Pyu Kalay's taste and growth habit?

squam256,

Thanks for the reply, now I have to decide between getting Gold Nugget, Glenn, or Timotayo mango.

@bsbullie and Zands, The grafted NDM I have, came from a tree imported into the DR from Florida by the ex-president, about 10 years ago, so I am guessing its the non "dwarf" variety. its hard to tell because, they grafted it way way up high on the rootstock. anyway its doing well in its container so far, but eventually I think i will have to put it in the ground.

Hey Sleep thanks for the info on the valcarrie. There is very little info on it. I have a couple of Gary's valcarries on dwarfing #8 rootstock (cute little trees!). Gary's sister said it was an excellent mango, but opinions are sparse on that mango...

Jeff

...I'm just exhausted reading this thread...
and as confused as ever!!!!!!!

So I'm going to bed and dreaming of apples.....

mangoDuffy

Out on the West Coast? Who knows. Maybe some are propagating the original Nam Doc Mai via grafting or as a seedling.

Just want to add to what I said. Lots of Vietnamese-American people there in Orange County and Los Angeles area (props to V-Ams esco and phucvu who post here) and I suspect there are lots of backyard Nam Doc Mai planted and other IndoChina varieties some we never heard of. Some grafted and some are seedlings. If I was there I would be doing a drive through Viet-American neighborhoods when mango panicales are blooming just to get a lay of the land. Also lots of mango trees in the "Spanish" neighborhoods so I hear

Here in Broward County Florida..... I am going to take photos and post photos of backyard mango trees come mango blooming time in Broward 2012

Zands,

I have been to most areas of Los Angeles and Orange County. From observation I would say the most popular subtropical/tropical fruit plants in order would be Orange, Lemon, Avocado, Banana, Guava, Mango, Dragon Fruit, Cherimoya, Inga Edulis/Longan.

The areas which I have seen the most trees are inner coastal city areas, which are predominately Mexican neighborhoods (ex. El Monte, Santa Ana, San Fernando). The higher income areas usually only have citrus and avocados. Next would be the Asian majority neighborhoods (ex. Westminster, Fountain Valley, Walnut, Diamond Bar)

Null,

You are correct. You are going to see citrus and avocados everywhere but in the Mexican and Asian neighborhoods you are going to find the rare fruits.

JF

JF,

Do you grow Opuntia? If your interested in the future, I have 8 great accessions from the GRIN system (selected for fruit size and quality and nopales).

Thanks Null

My neigbors have a huge one that grows over our yard LOL

JF

Nat, by now you may have noticed that you found a good forum for your mango inquiry :)
Years ago I received the same sensible advice some have shared: taste first, plant later. Happily, due to limited opportunity to taste some types, I totally disregarded the advice. I was disappointed by Joellen and Lancetilla, not by any of the others.
I'm glad you decided to plant both (all?) of your choices. Life is short and mangos are sweet. If you pull one out eventually, due to disappointing flavor, you'll have room to plant another new variety.

Harry, has your Thai Everbearing given you good, mature fruit at times other than summer? Also, is it polyembryonic? (In case I had a chance to taste and plant it some day)

"You are going to see citrus and avocados everywhere"

Null and Jfernandez I can easily see that. The big difference is here in Fl the Anglos (for lack of a better word) like mangoes. Mango trees in "Anglo" backyards and front yards everywhere. Both Zill and Pine Island nursery are "Anglo" operations.
Don't want to offend anyone but good luck finding a mango tree in a white boy backyard in California. But here in Florida whiteboys (and gals) will be growing bananas mangoes and papayas. I see banana trees everywhere but lots of times by the way they are being cultivated I can tell it is a decoration more that to get a bunch from. Right now I have three banana bunches coming along

:-) If you can graft then you can just topwork the trees you don't like. The basic technique is simple:

• Step 0) Hack the tree back to about 3 or 4 feet tall. For the mango, you want to do this around May.
• Step 1) Wait until new sprouts come out. When they are about pencil thickness, select the 2 or 3 shoots that you want to graft. I try to find ones that are evenly spaced out.
• Step 2) Side veneer graft the shoots and cover with parafilm.
• Step 3) The scions should break through the parafilm in 3 to 4 weeks. Once they harden off, cut off the top of the 'rootstock', leaving just the scion (as you would a traditional potted side veneer graft).
• Step 4) Gradually start eliminating the ungrafted sprouts, forcing all of the tree's energy into the newly grafted sciones.
• Step 5) Tip the new growth on the scions for each growth spurt (cut like a 1/2 inch below the tip). Tipping helps to calm the new growth down and will allow your newly topworked tree to come back into production quicker. Growth spurts will come fast and furious, so you'll have to be tipping every 3 weeks or so.

Most people freak when you do this sort of thing, but the mango tree has no problem with it. Also, since the tree has an established root system and a thick trunk with good carbohydrate reserves, it will grow extremely rapidly.

Jeff

Dan:

Thai Everbearing has fruited for me off season. My tree was grafted from plant material taken from the original tree growing at the home of Professor Al Will (who introduced the cultivar to the US many years ago). Al Will has said that his tree has had fruit on it in every month of the year at some time or another throughout the years it has been growing it here in Florida. His tree is huge, it towers over his home in Ft. Lauderdale and I believe it was grown from seed. So, yes, it is poly-embryonic. Mine has been kept much more manageable by grafting it onto a Hayden rootstock. Now...the name Thai Everbearing is somewhat misleading. No where is it actually always blooming and bearing. And, I have not experienced fruit in each and every month of the year as was related by Al Will. I have had sporadic off season crops. Which, is much more than I can say about Chou Anon....at least the Chou Anon at my house.

Harry

Yes mr mangoman, its very interesting reading. I can't possibly plant them all....but in general, something that the majority say is good, is. I have a valencia pride, a mallika, a carrie and now a harvest moon. I have a fairchild in a pot. Looks like the next will be a lemon zest...have to have one!

Jeff, how does the Lemon Zest compare to a Julie?

Adiel

In my personal opinion the LZ is far superior in terms of flavor. It's a completely different taste - creamy, sweet, and orangey.

Speaking of Julie, Zill's HPP will soon be releasing the 'Juliette' (late next year?), which is purported to taste like the Julie tastes when grown in the caribbean. They say that the Julie has a different flavor when grown inland vs the caribbean.

Jeff

Jeff- Does the Juliette have the same fungal problems in south florida as the Julie?

Is it a small tree?

Thanks,

Alexi

Since I live less than a mile from the ocean, might there be a possibility that a Julie grown in my yard would taste like a Caribbean one? Anyway, tell us more about the Juliette, Jeff.

I don't know a lot about the Juliette. The tree that I saw looked like it was in good shape, so I assume that it's more tolerant to fungus. The tree also seemed like it might be bigger than the Julie. It's a cross between the Julie and the Gary (which itself is an offspring of the Julie as I understand it).

If I get more info on it, I'll fill you in later.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, one more, how does the Lemon Zest mango compare to an Edward mango as far as flavor?

Thanks,

Adiel

"It's a cross between the Julie and the Gary (which itself is an offspring of the Julie as I understand it)."

They say incest is best, but I'm sure it's all relative.

Jeff, many thanks for the instructions on topworking a mango tree.
There is at least one member of this forum with a zero-percent success rate at grafting. Do you ever do sideline work as a grafter? He's in suburban Lake Worth, and would be happy to pay you for your expertise in topworking his Joellen.
If so I'll give you a call in May.

HAHAHAH incest :-).

The LZ is better than the Edward in my opinion. I group the Edward in the Glenn class of mangoes. Very good, fiberless, sweet + tart, but a tad simple in flavor.

As for top working the jean ellen, you shouldn't have much difficulty doing it. The rootstock has so much vigor behind it (being an older tree) that it's nearly impossible to lose a graft. Just make sure to use a clean, sharp knife and wrap the scion with something to keep it from dehydrating. You'll also want to try to shade it from direct sun. Parafilm works well for covering the scion.

Jeff

Is LZ dwarf and selled by Pine Island nursery? It looks like it's going to be my next mango tree :)

Samuel Forest

No, it's not dwarf. The only commonly sold mango trees that might fall into that category would be ice cream, pickering, julie, cogshall, and possibly nam doc mai #4.

The LZ appears to be a compact grower, but that doesn't mean much. The carrie is also a compact grower, yet my 6-7 year old carrie tree is already approaching 15 feet tall and wide. Vigor also plays a big role.

For container culture, one very important characteristic to consider is precocity. A mango tree in a pot that takes several years (and needs a large pot) to produce fruit is really nothing more than a glorified ornamental. I'm really fond of the pickering for it's habit of bringing fruit to maturity in a 3 to 7 gallon pot. The julie is also precocious, but it seems like the julie wants to be in a 15 gal pot before it will bring a fruit to maturity. The julie is also a pain in the neck to care for in a pot where the pickering is bulletproof.

Jeff

Here's a shot of puglvr's pickering which I believe she purchased as a 3 gallon sized tree and which set fruit 2 months later. This is common behavior for these trees. Excellent tree for container culture. I should add that Gary Zill selected this mango and named it after Wayne Pickering. Gary Zill is a mango genius.
{{gwi:43930}}

Thank you Jeff, some people on the forum also recommend me Pickering just like you, but I'm not sure about the coconut flavor...Does it taste really like coconut?

Is puglvr's mango trees are in the gritty mix (1-1-1)? I've made a bunch of it for my next mango tree I'll get in spring. I'm just worried about barerooting it to put it in the gritty mix...anybody know techniques?

Samuel Forest

Baileys Marvel

My lemon zest in still in the pot

I have another question regarding the Nam Doc Mai /#4

Is the newer #4 different because of a different rootstock used? or it was a seedling that just happened to have these newer characteristics ( more compact, uniform production )

In other words, If I was to plant a seed from a NDM#4 would it grow to be a #4 or and old version?