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To prune or not to prune

Posted by hmhausman FL 10B (hmhausman@aol.com) on
Thu, Dec 10, 09 at 21:37

This is a newly aquired and planted Jean Ellen mango purchased from the Fairchild Mango Festival this summer. It is supposed to grow into a small, very manageable sized tree......like Cogshall. It was long and lanky and I was debating about whether to chop it or not. As you can see, I didn't. I staked it up and it has now pushed blooms. Its now about 4 feet tall and has no branching at all. I know the conventional wisdom is to prune it now and not let it fruit, but I am going to let it be to see what it wants to do. I might even let it set a fruit. I am going to chronicle this foolish behavior. Let's see if I am going to regret it.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry,

Can you prune the tip only? Just a little on the tip but still have some flowers on. Wonder if it will do anything or cause the flower to drop or not if you only prune the tip.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry,
Looks like my Lancetilla before I chopped it down. Did you get to try the fruit at the festival? Good luck with your baby mango!
Ch3rri:
The tip of the mango is actually part of the immature bloom panicle. It wouldn't branch from that point considering that the structure is only for reproduction.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

If it were mine and I had never tasted the fruit I would let it fruit just to try one. If I had already tasted one I would chop it. I actually have a few trees in a similar situation right now. My Lanctilla, Philippine, and Alphonso are all growing to tall and lanky for my needs but I am not going to chop them until after fruiting season.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Might as well see what it does, THEN chop it down! Me? I'd say screw it and chop it now.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Kristy:
Andrew is right....just cutting the tip of the bloom spike will cause the bloom spike to branch. I don't think I would gain anything from that. I'll see if it wants to hold a fruit and then go from there.

Andrew:
No, I didn't get to taste it. I actually didn't get to go to the festival myself. A friend picked it up for me. The hype about this mango (one of the curator's choice mango for 2010) is in the link attached. BTW, I always take this hype with a grain of salt as I have found that even Fairchild can get a bit over exhuberant on these. Example: I bought the Fairchild mango book years ago and read with interest their mango ratings. While this book didn't list all cultivars, it did list a bunch and one that it did list was called Torbet. This was an orange skinned fruit that they pretty much decribed as mediocre at best in flavor and with a pretty good bit of fiber. Fast forward a few years and the almighty Torbet was a Curator's Choice mango. They said they had re-evaluated it.....but I cannot help but think that there was some relationship between having a bunch of them to sell and the new description of the quality of the fruit. Just my opinion.

Jay:
Your instincts on chopping are probably right....but I am going to wait. I have a feeling that we are in for a freeze this year. We are having another day of near 90's. Yesterday's temps broke records that have stood since they began keeping records in the 1800's. Last time we had such warm fall temps was in 1989. 12/24/89 the temp plunged to 26 at my house. This was before I was so deep into fruit. My orchid collection at that time was virtualy wiped out. So, I am going to hold back on all but the essential pruning hoping for the best and expecting the worst. If Mother Nature hits us with a freeze, all the pruning necessary will be done naturally. IN the mean time, some of my trees, like my jakfruits, are getting huge.

Here is a link that might be useful: Curator's Choice Mangos


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry,
Thanks for the info. I am extremely intrested in how this develops for one reason. If the tree is a small grower and the fruit lives up to the hype, I may(oh what the hell, I'll be honest..LOL!)or WILL be interested in this tree. What is the max height on it? Plus you said they are easy to maintain at small heights right? BTW your mention of a cold winter. We are being hit right now by are first winter lake effect snow storm. I bet we broke records with this one as well. My computer is saying it is 14 degrees here and I bet we have close to 2 feet of snow. Care to trade places with me? You could swap your mango trees for concord grape vineyards! LOL, great deal right?
Andrew


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Jean Ellen Mango

Harry,
Well if the description lives up to the real taste, production and height I say you got a winner. It sounds wonderfull. All I needed to here was ataulpho like and I am sold!
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

my Alampur Baneshan looks the same way


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry, I know you know what my answer would be...Prune it!!

It will grow so much fuller and it will also be shorter. So much easier to control. I love short bushy trees, so it might just me me. Plus, next year, more branches...more fruits! Ultimately, its your decision...but since you asked! Prune it,lol...


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Pug,
Well I followed your pruning techniques. I cut my lancetilla down from 4.5 feet to 2.0 with about 7-8 leaves. I hope it is sucessfull!
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew,

You are so brave. That's a big cut. Hope you didn't cut the grafted section.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew:
It'll be interesting to see how your tree fares. Lancetilla is a strong grower, so it should be fine. Re: your question about the size of the Jean Ellen mango....I have no clue. I haven't ever seen it. I bought it based on the description (hype)I told you about previously.

Nancy:
Yes, I knew what your advice would be. In my defense, the guy that mows my yard asks me to give him some room to ride his mower around.......so letting it get more tree-like rather than bush-like is good for him. I have one mango tree that is really, really bush-like. I believe it is Falang or I have also seen it called Falan. It's a Thai variety. I'll post a picture later. It is amazing.

Sour Diesel:
You live it Hollywood? Your profile says Afghanistan. Lol...I wondered how you were growing mangos there. It gets very cold there in the mountains. Anyway, welcome to the forum. I live out in Davie and plan to be doing some mango tasting hosting for members of this forum next summer. Would you be interested in joining us?


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew... I really hope you have success!! I actually don't like to recommend severe pruning to anyone in fear that it won't turn out the way you want it to...but I am an avid pruner by nature. I just prefer my own trees to be shorter and compact...as lush/thick as possible over tall and lanky! For me the only way to achieve this look is to prune them, sometimes very hard. Thanks for wishing us No freeze, I guess we all profit from that!

Harry, I truly understand about the room for mowing,lol...

This is my Lancetilla that I pruned last year...as you can see it was already 6 Ft tall, way taller than I wanted it to start with(Dwarf variety, right,lol) I'm sure yours will do just fine! I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

Pruned it to about 2 1/2 ft tall

Although this is a little slower growing...it looks better.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

hmhausman,

yes i am in Hollywood. i was on this board formerly known as boom_1 but my account was deleted by admin, lol.

sign me up, i would love to check out your trees. i often go to Bob Roths New River Grove (west of the turnpike on Griffin Rd for anyone local), they have an acre or so of mango trees behind the fruit stand. are you in that area?


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RE: To prune or not to prune

sour diesel:

Maybe your former nickname was deleted because it sounded too much like a terrorist explosion. :-]

You are officially on the list. I live further west and north.... a mile south of I-595 and between Flamingo Road and I-75

Harry


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Ch3rri,
Thanks for the warning but it is very easy to spot graft union on mango. I cut about 2 feet above that point.
Pug
I wanted the same result as you. I also noticed several leaves on the upper portion of the tree that were brown around the edges. I figured it was better to reduce the top so the tree could focus its energy on the root system. Once that happen I am hoping for new branches. I was not happy with the shape at all, one central leader and that was it. I will post any change as soon as I see it. I keep it nice and warm around 75 degrees.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

I'm interested in your observations harry. Screw conventional wisdom :) Good luck.

Puglvr, that's some serious pruning. I was wondering would that help it survive a near freeze? I know people who prune like that to put a plant into a dormant state and bring in for the winter.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Yes Andrew please keep give us an update later...

Hi Pepperot, I'm afraid I don't know anything about putting a tree into dormancy since I live in FL,lol. Since this tree is planted inground, I would never prune it like that in the winter, I'm know it would do severe damage if left in very cold temps w/out cover and lights. Even then, I almost lost several of my trees.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry,

My Angie from Fairchild looked almost the same way two months ago when I prunning it. Took it about a month or so after to show buds. I'm still waiting for the little buds to actually grow into branches. I kind of stopped worrying about it not doing anything figuring its winter. I hope your way... way...off about winter.

Tony


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Tony:

Yeah, I hope my fears about winter are total unmitigated paranoia.

Interestingly, I also got an Angie mango at Fairchild and it looks totally different than this Jean Ellen. It looks like the perfectly pruned little multi-brached little tree. I wonder if it had been pruned by someone at Fairchild while they were raising it for sale.

Harry


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry did you pick up an Emerald as well?

this one to me looks like the most unique and interesting, it resembles Indian varieties where ass the Jean Ellen is obviously a Thai and the Angie appears to be a Florida cultivar offspring.

like you said before i wouldn't be surprised either if this is the case and was done intentionally for marketing.

cant wait to try some.


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RE: To prune / not to prune

Sour:
No, my friend had limted space and I imposed enough to have him grab the two he got for me. Have you tasted the Emerald?

Harry


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Just noticed the 2010 Fairchild curators selections are almost the same as for 2009, leftovers? Maybe I'll just get that Neelum tree I have been looking for then.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry, i have not tasted any of the three curator choices at fairchild, Emerald however looked the most interesting to me. i never heard of it but its description says it was discovered many years ago, are you at all familiar with it?

Jean Ellen looks interesting too because i LOVE asian type varieties, Angie looks nice because it reddens up, none of my 11 mango varieties other than maybe Julie and Rosiegold get any reddish blush, taste is more important IMO, though it is beautiful to shine up a nice big Kent before you slice it once in awhile.

swrancher, 2009 and 2010 Fairchild curators choice links are below

Fairchild 2010 Curators choice

Here is a link that might be useful: Fairchild 2009 Curators choice


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Sour Diesel - I think the "2009 Curators Choice" link was actually from July 2008 festival? I was at this years festival, 2009...? and those were definitly not the ones that were there. Plus I bought my Angie tree at the 2009 festival and its not listed.

I agree the "Jean Ellen" does look like a nice type Mango when I bought my Angie tree it was a toss-up between the two varietes. The Angie won out because my wife has a cousin with that name that loves Mangos and I figured she would get a big kick out of a "Angie" mango.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

thats confusing because the Fairchild 2010 link goes directly to there site and it lists Angie, Jean Ellen and Emerald for 2010.

the blog lists the 2009 choices as the festival of Summer 2008 winners, (i believe the theme was mangos from Africa: Zebda, Nelpetite, Heidi)

they seem to be focusing now on new generations of superior trait trees for home gardeners

the blog and Fairchilds site both list the curators choice of the year (or six months) prior; i wonder why that is?

i heard in another thread on here a while ago Fairchild had a coconut cream variety for next years festival (2010). so would that be 2011 Curators choice?

either way it is imperative we get to the bottom of this, we will start a roll call and attend the festival and find out first hand ;)


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RE: To prune or not to prune

As promised, here is the unpruned, never Hurricane damaged Falang (Falan) Thai mango that is...believe it or not, 14 years old and only just over 4.5 feet tall.

Falang 12/12/09"

Another shot:


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry,
Everytime I see pics of your mangoes I get very depressed. Why wasn't I born and raised in FL? I lived somewhere tropical in a previous life! That is one beutifuul tree yougot there! Is the fruit enjoyable? How many fruit can you expect from such a small tree? I bet the fruit size must be small also.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry, that has got to be the "Ultimate Dwarf" variety I've ever seen. 14 yrs old and its only 4.5ft tall, that is amazing! I love that cute little tree, I love dwarf variety fruit trees, exactly for that very picture. I am also interested in how big are the fruits, taste, production? Thanks for your photos...like Andrew, I want to move a little more south of course drawback is the hurricanes,lol..small advantage living in the center of the state(little more protection).


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Thanks Nancy:

The fruit is a favorite mango to eat green in Thailand I am told. The fruits are not large. Here's a picture. Tough to appreciate the size from this picture. I would estimate the weight to be between 8-10 ozs.

I must confess that although this tree was never pruned, it did remain in a pot for an extended period of time before being planted out in the yard. Perhaps I did an unintentional Bonsai on it prior to letting it escape from the pot.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry are you sure its not Fralan?

Fralan is a Thai mango, Fralan means thunder in Thai because the fruit cracks when peeled green. Top and Broward RFVC both have it listed.

you could be right about it being dwarfed from being rootbound before planted, this is why faitrchild says they sell such small trees.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry, what how is the fruit when ripe? I am not a fan of eating mangoes when they are not ripe but that might be a nice one for me to pickup if it tastes really good ripe and stays so small.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

alot of thai mangos are eaten green, sliced into chips and eaten with spicy pepper dipping sauce.

nam doc mai can be eaten this way, unless you REALLY like green mangos, i would get one of them because they are excellent ripe as well.

Harry can correct me if im wrong but i have noticed most thai mango trees tend to stay around the same medium size, with a nice symmetry and canopy.

this one may have been dwarfed from being very rootbound or looking at the pics maybe shaded by more vigorous trees


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Sour diesel:
It was sent to me from Thailand under the name of Falang. I have since seen it spelled Falan. See link below for some interesting Thai mangos and spellings (which include Falan). And yes, in general, Thai Mangos do tend to be medium sized trees. The exception is Thai Everbearing. The original tree introduced to Florida by Al Will is quite large.

On my tree....rootbinding was a definite possibility. However, there was no shading of the tree.

John:
It is pretty bland when ripe. If you don't do green, this mango is not for you.

Harry

Here is a link that might be useful: Thai mangos


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Another shot of the Falang (Falan)

Here is a link that might be useful: Falang (Falan) mango


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RE: To prune or not to prune

This summer i bought a case of mango from an Asian market in Houston. They were labeled as 'Thai mango' in Vietnamese. I always want to find out what variety they are. Now look at Harry's link, they look like Keaw Sa Woie in the photo. My wife and her brother like them a lot because we all agree that they have some Longan flavor in them.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

I have one....except the spelling I got from Thailand was Keow Savoy. Another often eaten green mango in Thailand. This one, however, is not as bland when ripe. I am not sure I would say it had a longan taste. I don't think my taste buds are as sensitive as some. I'll have to check for a longan flavor this year when I have fruit.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry,
Maybe I can try the falan but I don't think I would like a green crunchy fruit so maybe not. I am in search of a Curator's choice mango. I have one the Cogshell but I would like one more. I am very pleased to say that the cogshall is bursting with growth now all over. I swear that I check each tree daily. I worry a lot this time of year with pests and diseases. It is so easy to end up with a serious bu infesttion or a disease. I remember when I was at Alfred State College for Landscaping. I asked if I could bring home a piece of the Monstera deliciosa. The cuttings were only 5-6 inches long and I had about three of them. They were infested with Mealybugs. I had removed them with rubbing alcohol and i could not see anything anymore. To make a long story short, every plant in that house was infested. I had a difficult time getting rid of them. It took me years. Now that I have moved out, I have not had the problem. I just have to pay special attention to everything right now. I know new arrivals are particularly stressed due to being weakened from shipping. Do you know what the black marks might be? So far I dont think it is spreading or growing. I hope the B-1 is not the culprit but the Julie I did the same for. The only good thing is that the Lancetilla seems to be holding its leaves. I dont see any more dried up spots on th leaves. I think it was not getting enough light. I set Julie and Lancetilla on the floor because they were so tall. I asked for larger ones but did not realize they were going to be so big! I should have just set up another table. I am praying the tree will survive. Let me know if you get fruit from Jene Ellen. maybe I will try this one.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

thank you for the link Harry, it seems i am wrong on the spelling of almost all my Thai trees, lol.

i wonder if it really translates into thunder?


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Thanks for posting that picture Harry. Its a pretty cool shape mango, although I have eaten some green mangoes, I very much prefer them ripe. Eating them once in a while green is okay(spicy) or on a salad. I would never get a tree just to grow the green ones,lol...Thanks for the great info.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

I would like to ask a question about my Cogshall and this seems to be the appropriate place to ask. Since he beginning of December I have noticed suckers growing on the rootstock. During the summer I removed one sucker and that was it. I figured that this was normal. I have seen this on many other trees so it didn't worry me at all. My cogshall has grown at least 3 of these suckers since the beginning of the month. Because I am so concerned about Lancetilla, I have been paying particular attention to my mangoes. Today I was checking them out and I think lancetilla maybe getting ready to push out a growth. I am not going to get too excited yet (just to find out later that it isn't going to make it.) but am moderatly hopefull. What surprises me and kinda worries me is that last night I removed a bud growth on Cogshall and two more tonight! The rootstock is growing suckers like gangbusters!! I wish there was something I could put on it to prevent the growth from coming out of the rootstock and have it come out on the top instead! Is there something I could do?? I was almost thinking of something like maybe a torn piece of cloth that I could put around it. I could make it tight enough to stop the growth but not hurt the tree. What do you guys think? Or is it better to just let mother nature do her thing. Does anyone else have a mango that has a vigorous rootstock?? Thanks in advance for your help.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew:
I have never had what you are decribing except in newly grafted trees. There is very occasionaly a small tree that will send up a sprout from the roots. One of these shouldn't be of any concern. The fact that it wants to keep doing it is of some concern I would think because it shows preference by the root stock to not grow through the grafted tree portion above. I don't know for sure as I have never grown under the conditions you are facing. I would be concerned over some incompatability between the root stock and the Cogshall protion of the tree. Might be a good idea to wrap the lower part of the tree to retard and desire to sprout by denying it light. I'd wait to hear from other people here in the forum who might have experienced the same situation under similar growing conditions. Best of luck in handling this.....also good to hear that there is still hope on Lancetilla.

Harry


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry thanksfor the advice. It does concern me due to the fact that the graft is old and the union is old also. I know that between the lancetilla and julie, cogshell is the oldest sgraft. The cogshell graft is quite a bit older. I also should mention that what I removed the last two times is very immature. I would say the buds were about a 1 fourth the size of a peaa. I will wait to see if any northern growers have had the sane issue. I also just thought of something else that could have influenced this problem. I used the vitamin b-1 application on this, and I wonder if that affected the growth of suckers. It would make sense to me that if I am trying to make the root system grow faster then normal, then maybe it might cause root stock buds to produce more then normal. I guess only time will tell. As long as the top continues to flourish, I can live with having to remove the suckers. I also wonder if maybe what I removed would have stayed dormant and not have grown at all. Who knows, this is uncharted waters for me, but I dont mind taking the plunge...as long as I get to enjoy the fruits of my labor. I am just pleased to see any growths on my trees. I also can't wait to see what happens when I put this tree outdoors in the spring. I am kind of curious to see if maybe the tree will go into bloom again. I know temperature affects the mangoes bloom cycle. I just had a thought. I was going thru older mango posts last night and I saw how lycheeluva had bloom flushes on his trees during the summer. Maybe mine will react the same way.Maybe it will be possible to get blooms twice a year! I would be very excited to have two blooms and fruit set twice.....I can only dream!
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew, your recent post reminded me of the time I was pruning suckers from 2 grafted plants: a tangerine and suebelle sapote. I had spread some slow release osmocote and we had rain showers for several days afterwards. A couple weeks later the suckers were sprouting like crazy. I just kept pruning until the rootstock eventually gave up and much more growth started to occur above the graft. I live in FL but I do believe whatever applications you're giving to the soil is stimulating the rootstock.


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While tangerine and white sapote (related.... both of the family of Rutaceae) are much more likely to sprout from the rootstock than mangos are (in my exeprience) I have to agree that the B-1 treatment that you are giving is likely causing the rapid root stock growth.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry,
I figured the B1 was the culprit but as long as it is growing a better root system then I have no proble with it. I have seen such a big diffrence in the cogshells overall growth that I will keep doin this for awhile. I don't use it everytime I water, maybe twice a month. Something is working though, I don't know if it was B1 or slow release fertilizer. I have only put the slow release on twice since I got it and never seen bud growthboth on top and bottom so rapidly.
Andrew


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Update on the Lancetilla that I hard pruned above...I just
saw some blooms on it this morning!! I will just let it do its thing...I might lose it to frost anyway. Its pretty neat to see blooms on such a small tree.


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Nancy:

Beautiful! The hard pruning you did seems to have set very well with your tree.

Harry


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Hello Nancy,
Congrats to you and your Lancetilla! I really hope you don't have a frost. I can only imagine how frustrating that must be. I know how that feels, especially where I live. It seems like every fall you pray for more warm nights so you can ripen fruit or vegetables so you can harvest.
Andrew


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Thanks Harry and Andrew! Definitely keeping fingers crossed on the NO frost for sure. Unfortunately we haven't even hit winter yet...three more months to worry **sigh**

Andrew, wish you the best of luck with your Lancetilla also!


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Hello Nancy,
I have to say I wish 3 months was all we had for winter! I don't expect temps to warm up here till about mid april. Normally by the beginning of May I can leave tropicals out permanently. Last year I want to say it was beginning of Apil but that is very unusual. Do you have a pic of the whole lancetilla now? I'm curious as to how much the tree has grown now.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew, the tree looks exactly the same size as the last picture I posted above, except now there are blooms,lol. That pic was taken a few weeks ago w/out blooms. It was very slow to regrow after that "hard prune", took about 5 months or so to grow those 6-7 branches. I planted that tree in the ground Jan. of this year. It was in a pot for six months before I planted it in the ground.

There's a very good chance the fruits won't mature any way, the tree is still very small, but I'll let the tree decide.


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Sour diesel:
With regard to the spelling of these Asian names....you can't get too excited about the differences you see. When these names come out of a language that uses a different alphabet and has such different pronunciations and sounds, the tranliteration into English will vary widely. For example....I have seen Chou Anon spelled, Chok Anon, Chok Arnon, and Chauk Anan. Or Hak Ip lychee spelled, Haak Ip, Hak Yip, Har Kip and maybe even some other ways. I don't think any one as the inside track on being absolutley correct.


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i always knew the spellings varied but i never knew this greatly. im not a stickler type for spelling, just curious if we are referring to the same varieties.

more confusing is varieties like okrong tong, and okrong pikung tong. im not sure if they are distinct or not.

ive tasted an okrung tong last year, it was one of two off a small tree they were selling at spykes. it was the sweetest thing i have ever tasted in my entire life, i couldnt believe it.


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I have Okrung and Okrung Pi Kun Tong, but not Okrung Tong. Again, might be the same thing. Looking at Top's, their Okrung looks nothing like the ones I grow. I frankly can't remember what the Pi Kun Tong looks like...they all start to blend together in my head.

My Okrung looks like this:

The year before Hurricance Wilma, my tree began maturing fruit in early June. I would pick up from the ground an average of 30 fruits in the morning and another 30 fruits at night....and that went on for over 2 months. It was amazing. Okrung doesn't have a huge amount of flesh and it does have some fiber near the seed, but the flavor is excellent and very, very sweet.


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i have an okrung tong from TOP. the fruit of okrung tong i tried at Spykes last year were pointed at the end (like your picture) and the seed has fiber around it.

PI lists this as Okrung

doesnt look like yours either

we will have to compare okrung pikung tong when it fruits

i can definitely understand how thai mangos would look the same after awhile.


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Now that I look at them, I think PIN picture you posted look more like my Okrung. I am so confused...lol


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heres a post by dghays where he describes his okrong, okrung, okrong tong cultivars

Here is a link that might be useful: pulling out the ax Jan 2008


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Thanks Sour diesel for the post. The link you provided goes to a different thread than the one you mention where Gary Hays also posted. I was able to find the correct thread, though, as you provided the correct name of the correct thread. Thanks again.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry,
Those Thai mangos I got that seem to had been picked from the tree for a long time. The skin showed wrinkles on it, especially around the point. The meat was white, had some light yellow color near the seed and somewhat dehydrated. I did not care much for that dry and gummy like texture but my wife did like that flavor. I took off a very thin part of the skin and left most green behind. It made the meat a little crunchier. I did keep a few out on the counter to ripen. The fruit got drier and more wrinkles all over it. The meat was never juicy like most mangos do when ripe. And after a month or so, my wife was watching Taiwanese talk show from Youtube, the host had mention about these longan flavor mangos.
The fruit does look like Keaw Sa Woie in the photo but not sure it is it. I will get some this summer and post photos here.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry,
The Okrung looks like a very pleasing mango variety to grow. I have never had an asian mango. Surprise, Surprise, normally I just get your commercial Tommy Atkins, unless I go to the Puerto rican neighborhood of Buffalo but there mangoes are definetly not asian. I would like to try one of these. maybe if lancetilla doesn't pull thru I will try this or maybe Maha Chanook. Are either of these very vigorous? I am just wondering if I could keep it in a pot or not. I know I could do it. I just wonder how much pruning would be required. that is what is nice about Julie and Cogshell. I have yet to pull out pruners on Cogshell. I know if Lancetilla makes it I will have to prune.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew:
I would say the Okrung is more vigorous than Maha Chanook. I would place them between Cogshall and Lancetilla as far as growth habit.....with Lancetilla being the fastest and largest grower and Cogshall being the smallest/slower grower of the group.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

I am glad to here that. If I can get just one more(LOL!), Maha Chanook it is!
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Pug,
I just wanted to let you know that your pruning technique has succeeded with my Lancetilla. I now know that the buds are going to turn into new branches. I am so relieved! I thought the lancetilla was a goner!! I really think the vitamin B-1 really helped it along. I will post pictures as soon as the buds break!
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew, very glad to hear that...Great News!! Thanks for the update. B-1 I'm sure helped also, BTW...fish emulsion is a good fertilizer for Mango trees...when your tree needs fertilizing this is a god product that doesn't cause roots or leaf tip burn. I usually use about 1/2 the recommended amount. Smells bad...but works great,lol

As I've stated before...I NEVER recommend anyone hard pruning their trees the way I do. I merely posted it here to show that it can be done and "for me" with great results. Just another option for someone that wants to keep their trees size in check.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Dear Pug,
I can appreciate what you said about the pruning. I think the same way about reccomendations here. You don't want to tell someone to do something and have them have poor results. I only did this because the shipping stress was pretty bad, and I wanted the tree to have less height to worry about, plus I knew I would have to prune it quite low in order to keep the tree at a more maneagable size. I really want the cogshall and julie to stay around 5-6 feet. The lancetilla with its larger fruit will need to be taller. i am hoping that it can fruit well around 7-8 feet.
The fish emulsion and seaweed products are so confusing for me because there are tons of them. It seems every catalog and store has a diffrent one and the web has tons also. I know to check the numbers for the fertilizer but wow, I never knew there were so many! I am planning on buying some before they go out doors for the spring. I am trying to control the growth so I can keep them happy indoors without having them stangle me while I am sleeping. Thanks again Nancy for your advise. I hope you and your family have a safe and happy holiday.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Thanks Andrew! Happy Holidays to you and everyone here on the forum as well.

For what its worth, I've used the brand "Alaska Fish Emulsion", unfortunately my big box stores quit carrying it last spring. I'm hoping they will carry it again next spring. If not I can get it at my local feedstore it just cost almost double,lol...

Here is a link that might be useful: Alaska Fish Emulsion 5-1-1


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Hello Nancy,
I rerally appreciate the help with the Fish emulsion. I think I will give this one a try. I may just get it in the next few weeks and use it on all of my mangoes. The keylime does not need any of that. I can't believe the growth of this tree. I am glad it is a dwarf. I read the link you provided but I am not sure what directions I would follow for the potted mango. They had directions for trees and potted plants. Which do you follow? Do you do it at full or half strength? I have a feeling that once my mangoes go outdoors they are going to bloom. I don't have enough of a temperature drop indoors to simulate the cool condtions needed for blooming. That is why I want to buy it now. I think Julie will bloom and hold fruit this year. Cogshell and Lancetilla have some growin to do before they can hold fruit. I am so excited!! I have never been able to have a mango this happy and now I have 3! I can personally say that tree ripened fruit is excellent. The memory of what I had in Fl last summer is making my mouth water!! Thanks for everything Nancy.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

I use about 1/2 tablespoon( 1 1/2 tsp) of fish emulsion to one gallon of water...about every 3-4 weeks. I have used one tablespoon per gallon of water with no ill effects. I use it when the tree is growing. I don't use it in the winter... since that is when it suppose to bloom, but since you grow yours indoors your growing cycles are different than mine. I would only fertilize it when you see new growths, when the temps are warmer.

I am no expert but just wanted to share what worked for me. I know how you feel...I LOVE mangoes too! My favorite fruits.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Nancy,
Sometimes I think us amatuers actually no more. I've told this story before but not sure if you heard it or not. I knew I was going to FL with friend around May. I did a ton of research on growing mango in a container. I also researched diffrent mangoes that would grow well in a pot. I decided on Cogshell. The nursery only had Cogshell and Nam Doc Mai. I picked it up a few days before our flight and boxed it up the morning of our flight. We made it home safely and I repotted the bare root mango. I contacted Pine and this women sent me an email telling me that it was pretty much impossible for me to grow a mango here because it was too cold, and the tree would not survive under lights. She also told me not to water until the soil was almost completely dry. Following this advise my Cogshell almost died from dehydration. The stems were puckered up and I lost 1/3 of the stems and leaves. I joined garden web and asked for help and my mango began turning around. I did not get a flush of foliage till now and it is coming on now like gangbusters. If I had followed Pines advice, it would have died in less then a month. Now that is why I do not always think that the experts have good advice. To actually say that growing this fruit was impossible. So many sites say the complete opposite. And your pruning advise was dead on! If I had not been brave enough to trust you, bye bye to Lancetilla.
As far as the growth cycle here, your right it is a completely diffrent ball game. The only cool weather these trees will ever have will be late spring to early summer, and late summer to early fall. I am curious to see if Cogshall will try to bloom again in spring. Can't wait to find out! I will be working on my blog page so I can show my findings.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew, that's a great story and thanks for sharing it. You're right when it comes to us "tropical fruit tree lovers or obsessions" never say never. We love pushing my zone limits. I enjoy a challenge, I'd rather not be told I can't grow it. Let me try it and if I can't I know that I've done my best. I'm very happy for you with your success. You guys deserve the pat in the back for growing plants that aren't suppose to grow in your zone,lol...Makes the payoff that much more satisfying.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Dear Pug,
I thought you might enjoy that story. It really irks me when people say that you can't grow that in NY? I mean really, yeah winters are long and cold, but we have to keep warm, and all it takes is some supplemental lighting and your good to go! I will admit defeat with Banana's. Not hard to grow, i did fruit some of the superdwarfs, but the larger ones just got to big for me. Honestly I think mango is one of the easist of the tropical fruits I have grown. I think citrus is even more difficult. The watering for the mango was my only problem. Once I got it in my head that you don't wait to water until soil is dry, I was fine. As far as the payoff, I hope it is worth the time and the MONEY!! That is the hard part, the cost especially the shipping costs. I paid about $110.00 for Julie and Lancetilla. I think it was worth it, at least so far. Thanks for the comments. I will keep you posted with my success!
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry -

So did you decide to prune the Jean Ellen tree or not? If not what's going on with its flowers/fruit?

Tony


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Tony:
I have not pruned it. It has open flowers but no fruit set yet. Really nothing too dramatic to take a picture of. If fruits set or I decide to prune, I post more pictures.

Harry


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry,
I know it has only been six days since the last time you updated us but how does it look? I wanted to ask you for some help with the lancetilla. I posted about this but it must have been lost. The lancetilla has sent out to growths. I am worried that the two growths are going to be flowers instead of branches. In most circumstances, I would let fruit form and remove the whole stem. This time I am worried that the tree won't bee able to handle letting fruit form. I only have 4 leaves on the whole tree, and they are beatin up. What do you think I should do? I am happy that it is growing, to me that is a good sign but I can't have fruits now. Why cant it just grow stems. I wouldn't mind flowers in a few years!! Thanks for any help Harry.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew:

Sorry, still nothing to really see on this young tree. No fruit set yet. The other day I thought it was a bit unusual that two honey bees were on the infloresence. Mangos here don't usually attract honey bees. Pollinationj is usually by flies, moths, and beetles This cooler weather we are finally getting may have a negative effect on the mango fruit setting. It might be affecting the pollenator population and also may affect the viability of the pollen. So the good news, we had early mango blooms galore. Bad news....we may have to wait until a later bloom cycle for real fruit set on most of the trees.

As far as your Lancetilla.....buds at this time of year would ordinarily be blooms. But, with the major prune job I would think that the tree would more likely put out new vegetative growth if it was in an otherwise growth conducive environment (sufficient water, nutirients, light, etc.) If it pushes blooms after a major pruning like that I would be more concerned about the trees well being. Keep me posted and best of luck with it.

Harry


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry:

Sad to hear about the pollination rates for your mango trees. I am so dissapointed with what the stores are carrying up here right now. I decided to go on strike when it comes to buying any mangoes right now. I did see a bunch at a tops in the Latin neighborhood in Buffalo about a week ago. I should have wrote the name of the fruit down. I had never heard of it before but it looked similiar to the "rocks" they are selling as mango here. I did see some large green mangoe that were softer but was not sure if it would be a waste. Last year I ate a mango that was similiar in appearance and it was very delicious. The fruit was huge and longer then what I normally see but without a name to give you that won't help. Anyways no more mango until they come back in season. Do you know when the champagne come back in season? It seems to me it was early spring but not sure. I have stopped considering buying anymore mango trees until I can try the fruit. I am hoping that when we go down there either in July or August, I will get to sample a lot. I am rerally hoping to make it for the Fairchild mango festival, but if I have to go to a diffrent one I will. I know that Jene's will have a tropical fruit festival. When does the bell carambola come into season? I really want to try some. I am hoping I can find someone who can ship them to me. I do like the mild dlavor that I get in the dtore variety.
I also wanted to tell you that I am now pretty sure that I was jumping the gun with the lancetilla. I looked at it after I posted this(should have done it sooner-Sorry!) and now I can tell it will be branches. I can't believe how much larger the buds are on the lancetilla compared to Julie and Cogshall. You can tell that this tree will grow larger then the other condo types. I really give the credit to the vitamin B-1. Someone here had said that they didn't think that the vitamin would make a diffrence with potted fruit trees, but I had taken pictures of the root system on the Caimito. I only have had this for a month and you could see the new root growth and the roots were still pretty small but a diffrent color then the roots towards the middle and the top.
One last thing. I am struggling with this one and I know you rerally can't help me but if you had room for only one more tropical fruit in your collection, what would you pick and why? I don't have room for dragonfruit. I would love to grow breadfruit but I am pretty sure that is impossible. The trees are huge and I doubt there is any dwarf forms. I just ate tostones de pana for dinner tonight. I love it. Cut, fried, and mashed down and fried again. Also good cut up and boiled and used in escabeche.
Thanks Harry, HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew:

Can't be of much help...sorry. I don't grow Champagne mango and they have appeared at odd times in the store. I think they do something chemically to induce off season blooming in Mexico. That allows them to have fruits for harvest when prices are at a premium because of no other mangos available.

I have no experience with Breadfruit except for seeing huge specimens at Excalibur and small seedlings here and there for sale. They are one of the most tropical of plants and suffer damage, including die back to the ground, at the first hint of cold weather. Not sure what their tolerance is. Perhaps one of our Caribbean forum mates could comment on that.

As far as one fruit, if I could only add one more......I couldn't say. I would move somewhere where I could buy more than one more tree.

Happy New Year to you too!

Harry


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew, my advice would be to forget about carambola, i just dug one out of the ground and planted it in the neighbors yard to make way for a mango tree. pretty trees, but the fruit are insipid compared to the king Mango.

are you growing any anonas?


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Well.....I would say insipid is a bit harsh......how about "more delicate?" Carambolas don't have the level of flavor as mango...for sure...but for your growing situation, Andrew, they are interesting and very rewarding.

Bell is in season now, I assume. I just bought a tree and planted it out about a month ago. So I am new to it. It came with 3 fruits on it when I bought it. It was about 6 feet tall in a rather small pot......3 gallon I believe. I tasted the fruit when I was at Excalibur. It was huge....sweet, with a very nice flavor and flowery aroma. I think Ohiojay has documented his first try of the Bell carambola on this forum. My other carambolas are just about maturing their winter crop. My others include Sri Kembangan, Kari, Arkin, Hart, Possum Trot, and Thai Night. I would still have carambola in the running for purchase if I were in Andrew's situation.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Sour, Did was your tree a grafted on or from seed? I have to wonder if you have tasted a good variety if you describe the flavor as insipid. I think my "Kari" fruit is great very sweet and definitely not what I would call insipid.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

im not sure what variety it was but it was grafted, from Zill. very productive, i pruned it alot and gave it an ornamental shape. it had small yellow orangish fruit.

my neighbor has a huge one that bears large white yellow fruit almost all year.

the fruit are good for presentation and have an interesting floral note but they just dont excite me like mangos so it has to go, im only on 1/4 acre.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Wow, I need to proof read my posts better. Don't know where that "Did" came from in my previous post.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry thanks for the positive comment. I would like to try the bell. Hmmm. I wonder if I can find someone online that is selling the fruit. I have heard plenty of good about this fruit and based on the last starfruit I had I have to say I am intrigued. It was almost like wanting to get another bite hoping the flavor would get just a little more stronger. I also like the season for this fruit. I really don't have any fruiting trees right now. Maybe the keylime when it gets bigger.
Sour,
I am growing some seedling anonas, and I think I have a better chance of getting good fruit from a grafted carambola then a seedling anona. Plus I have heard people say that they can be grainy. Some are sweet others are watery and not so sweet. I just don't know if it would be worth the price to buy a grafted anona and end up not liking the fruit in the end.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

there are many varieties, the one i had i didnt like. i know there are varieties that are very sour as well, never tried one. Bilimbi is also a close relative.

i knew if i didnt pull it out now i might not have been able to salvage it. there was no room so it was either that or the DOT mango i want.. i gave it thought.

i also gave away my white and ruby guavas, fuyu persimmon, and june plum to make way for mango trees.

so now its 13 mangos, 4 anonas, 1 lychee, 1 jackfruit, 1 jaboticaba on 1/4 acre = alot of shade in about 10 years i would guess.

if i want another mango variety i will have to wait until they grow and learn how to side graft.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Sour,
Good move. I have read the description on persimmon but it doesn't sound appealing or even look appealing. I know I should try it before saying that but definetly not going to make it as far as buying a tree. I never have liked guava and I had a tree ripened one in Puerto Rico. Lychee and Jackfruit are on my to try list, but not the june plum. If I lived in FL or somewhere tropical it would be mango all the way with the mango.
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Happy New Year! Here is an update picture of the blooming mango that started this thread. Fianlly, I see some little mangos forming.

Jean Ellen mango bloom 1/1/10


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RE: To prune or not to prune

  • Posted by dghays Z10A FL Brevard (My Page) on
    Fri, Jan 1, 10 at 11:24

Andrew, Non-astringent oriental persimmon like Fuyu is excellent. I have around 18 mango varieties but after trying a fuyu locally grown, I absolutely had to have one. It is also a way to have fruit from Oct - Dec. Even ones from the grocery store are usually fairly good.

If a carambola was insipid, something was wrong with that tree like they got the scion from a root sprout or something, it's hard to know. My Sri Kembangan taste great fresh, even kids like them. Mine is totally loaded right now, but I agree that mango is better.

Gary


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Nancy,
How did the lancetilla make out? Did your flower buds make it? I will take pics of mine today and post it so you can see. I have two small branches now about 1 inch long. I am very happy that it made it through. I was all ready considering a new mango when I thought my lancetilla was a goner. I am glad I waited! Patience is a virtue!!
Andrew


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Andrew, in the right environment its pretty hard to kill a mango tree. ive seen new growth on even very old trees after their canopy was completely destroyed by hurricanes (my neighbor has the pictures). when you first posted about your Lancetilla in distress i wasnt too worried for you.

Gary thanks for the heads up on the Fuyu, thats the one i have and i have heard such great things about it. luckily its going in a neighbors yard so i will still be able to enjoy it.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Hi Andrew, great news on your Lancetilla...Congrats! I always say...never say die. I will have to wait and give you an update next week? That Lancetilla is planted in the ground and we're dipping down to 38 tomorrow morning and the rest of the week looks even worse, 5 nights in a row of 30-35! Very unusual for us here in Central FL...I have it covered tonight and will cover it every night till the temps go above 40...but I just don't know if the blooms will survive that many nights of freeze or near freeze temps. Wish me luck...I will update next week.

I only have one mango tree in a pot, so that's the only one I can bring inside the garage,lol..I'm very glad yours is doing well.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Like most mangoes in my yard, no fruits set or as in this case, held, from the first bloom cycle. New bloom is beginning to sprout. Saty tuned.

Jean Ellen mango 3/24/10


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Nice, Most of mine seem to be doing the same thing.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

I have 2 mango planted here in Phoenix, one Glenn and one Nam Doc Mai, they are grafted but the graft points are so high on the tree, does anyone know why some nursery's do the graft this high?

the graft is at least 3-4 feet high off the soil line.. I've seen some of you guy's mango's with the graft inches off the soil line..

whats up with that? I would prefer mine to be lower but I guess theres nothing I can do now lol.. I think they were originally purchased from a nursery called La Vernes or La Verne nursery


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RE: To prune or not to prune

my alampur baneshan was a whip like that, i tipped it a month ago and now its starting its scaffolds for the canopy


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Looks real good Mango Kush, almost makes me want to hack mine back. I'll wait a bit longer before doing anything rash. But it is very tempting.

Harry


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RE: To prune or not to prune

One of my whip's, a Rosigold mango tree. Put out a bunch of bloom panticles from its top and the little Mangos that formed on them are now about pea size. I want the tree to branch correctly and grow a bit more before it fruits. Should I cut the panticles off at their base or just pick the baby mangos off of the bloom panticles?


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RE: To prune or not to prune

i use Fairchilds guidelines and tip them to form a canopy of three or four scaffolds and repeat for each branch each flush.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fairchild mango pruning article


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Strange.....I went to do an updated picture of this tree and it looks virtually identical to the picture I posted a month ago. I thought this was going to be a secondary bloom. No such luck. Seems my hoped for secondary bloom may not come...here are just about anywhere else for my mangoes. This could be very bad news about this year's crop. Being the alarmist I am, I am already thinking the worst. Hoping I am worrying for nothing......have a good Sunday everyone.

Harry


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RE: To prune or not to prune

OK....so here's the update on the unpruned mango, Jean Ellen. As you can see, it has branched out from just below mid way on the left side of the tree and has pushed new vegetative growth from the terminal bud. This is generally what I expected and why, in my situation, pruning back young trees is not necessary to get the branching that is desired. In pot culture, it may well be better to prune severely a/k/a "pug" the tree. But grafted trees will generally branch on their own. Seedlings are much more in need of severe pruning.

Jean Ellen mango 5/31/10


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Sort of interesting Harry, in your second original post on this thread, you foreshadowed the freeze in FL this past winter. Two super heroes on this board, you predicting (or causing) the freeze and Lychee lover causing your trees to bloom so much. If only you could foreshadow me some lottery winnings. :)

Your Jean Ellen looks great, no winter damage. I still cant believe the Fralan is only 4.5', amazing.

-Ethan


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RE: To prune or not to prune

glad to see we came to a conclusion on this topic.

its best to prune a mango whip, unless of course you choose not too.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

I think those of us in colder climates prefer the branching much lower on the tree so as to maintain a smaller height with wider tree.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

  • Posted by zands 10b Fl (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 14, 11 at 12:51

For H Hausman
How is the Jean Ellen doing? An internet search shows a recent photo ....looking very good with little mangoes. Looking very good from the ~20 months you had it in the ground

http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/hmhausman/?action=view¤t=121_2180.jpg&&newest=1

Here is a link that might be useful: Recent Jean Ellen


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RE: To prune or not to prune

zands:

The fruits are sizing up. I'm in Washington DC for the week for spring break with the kids. I'll post an update when I get back in town next week.

Harry


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry
Have you hit up the botanical gardens, there in DC it's free admission and so amazing I can't even walk by without a stop in to see what's blooming/fruiting(seriously). It's across from the Capitol building.

:)


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RE: To prune or not to prune

We were there today. Saw a very nice fruiting cacao, a large mamey sapote, lots and lots of blooming orchids, monstera, several citrus varieties, and quite a few other things of interest which are not coming to mind at the moment. Very nice....especially at a price of free!

Harry


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RE: To prune or not to prune

OK, here's the current status of the unpruned Jean Ellen. Apologies for the blurriness...I think I had the camera setting wrong.

Jean Ellen mango 3/23/11


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Harry,

Is that green tie too tight or is it just an optical illusion because it's dark?

Cath


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Nice catch Cath - funny you should mention that. I had a string from the tag on my mango tree that had choked and girdled the trunk a bit before I removed it......BUT.....I think the green ties are plastic and flexible, so i'm guessing it is an optical illusion....and that even if it is stretching it would eventually break or breakdown....

but of course Harry could confirm that....

mangofrostydog


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RE: To prune or not to prune

  • Posted by zands 10b Fl (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 23, 11 at 20:00

Harry
So that Jean Ellen was bought in summer 09. In two mango seasons it already is producing a few mangoes. It is well shaped so your non-pugging experiment worked OK. You did not snip the top to encourage branching as some do


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Zands, I agree that its not necessary to "Pug" any or all mango trees. I think "pugging" is only suggested for people that want to try and grow their trees "short and wide" trying to achive a shorter trunk...as opposed to letting nature take its course and letting the tree grow naturally. Pugging is best for people that grow in pots/containers or if they have a small yard and want to maintain a more Dwarf tree for easy protection from freeze and if the trees are short...an added bonus is much easier to pick the fruits.

If you notice Harry's tree, it has a much taller trunk than what a "pugged" tree would have. But, it is definitely not necessary to "pug" mango trees at all. They will branch out on their own regardless if you pugged it or not. Main difference is it will grow much taller and will reach its maximum height. I pug mine basically because I want to keep my trees small and short so its easier to take care of.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

I couldn't agree more. My point was just to see what would happen since I had the space to try it and I never have the heart to drastically prune (which is attributable to my lack of patience in waiting for a tree to fruit). Clearly there are growth habit benefits to "pugging" especially for container growers.

Cath41: Fear not....that green tape is highly stretchable and isn't girdling the tree. On the other hand, I have some wire on various mango trees which would definitely qualify as girdling. The mango tree limb or trunk just engulfed the wire and grew right around it with seemingly little effect. I try to take a picture of this nect time I do a yard shoot.


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RE: To prune or not to prune

puglvr1 ---
What I see is that bushy dwarfish varieties of mangoes naturally pug themselves for container growing.... In that their tendency is growing low wide and bushy. Pickering and Julie would fit into this scheme.

Others that are described as medium or vigorous growers would need pugging to be manageable in a container. Or for planting in a small yard or if you have other space limitations.
Besides all that---So far I have had to pug two mangoes I received in bad pot bound shape. Just to give them a fresh new start


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Hello ,
Read that someone might have yellow Jaboticaba seed and wonder If you would consider parting with a few seeds
Ursula
culejools@yahoo.ca


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RE: To prune or not to prune

Here's a updated shot of this tree...still not having been pruned and having produced its first crop last summer.

mango "Jean Ellen" 12/10/11

Harry


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