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hmhausman

To prune or not to prune

hmhausman
14 years ago

This is a newly aquired and planted Jean Ellen mango purchased from the Fairchild Mango Festival this summer. It is supposed to grow into a small, very manageable sized tree......like Cogshall. It was long and lanky and I was debating about whether to chop it or not. As you can see, I didn't. I staked it up and it has now pushed blooms. Its now about 4 feet tall and has no branching at all. I know the conventional wisdom is to prune it now and not let it fruit, but I am going to let it be to see what it wants to do. I might even let it set a fruit. I am going to chronicle this foolish behavior. Let's see if I am going to regret it.

{{!gwi}}

Comments (116)

  • puglvr1
    14 years ago

    Thanks Andrew! Happy Holidays to you and everyone here on the forum as well.

    For what its worth, I've used the brand "Alaska Fish Emulsion", unfortunately my big box stores quit carrying it last spring. I'm hoping they will carry it again next spring. If not I can get it at my local feedstore it just cost almost double,lol...

    Here is a link that might be useful: Alaska Fish Emulsion 5-1-1

  • Andrew Scott
    14 years ago

    Hello Nancy,
    I rerally appreciate the help with the Fish emulsion. I think I will give this one a try. I may just get it in the next few weeks and use it on all of my mangoes. The keylime does not need any of that. I can't believe the growth of this tree. I am glad it is a dwarf. I read the link you provided but I am not sure what directions I would follow for the potted mango. They had directions for trees and potted plants. Which do you follow? Do you do it at full or half strength? I have a feeling that once my mangoes go outdoors they are going to bloom. I don't have enough of a temperature drop indoors to simulate the cool condtions needed for blooming. That is why I want to buy it now. I think Julie will bloom and hold fruit this year. Cogshell and Lancetilla have some growin to do before they can hold fruit. I am so excited!! I have never been able to have a mango this happy and now I have 3! I can personally say that tree ripened fruit is excellent. The memory of what I had in Fl last summer is making my mouth water!! Thanks for everything Nancy.
    Andrew

  • puglvr1
    14 years ago

    I use about 1/2 tablespoon( 1 1/2 tsp) of fish emulsion to one gallon of water...about every 3-4 weeks. I have used one tablespoon per gallon of water with no ill effects. I use it when the tree is growing. I don't use it in the winter... since that is when it suppose to bloom, but since you grow yours indoors your growing cycles are different than mine. I would only fertilize it when you see new growths, when the temps are warmer.

    I am no expert but just wanted to share what worked for me. I know how you feel...I LOVE mangoes too! My favorite fruits.

  • Andrew Scott
    14 years ago

    Nancy,
    Sometimes I think us amatuers actually no more. I've told this story before but not sure if you heard it or not. I knew I was going to FL with friend around May. I did a ton of research on growing mango in a container. I also researched diffrent mangoes that would grow well in a pot. I decided on Cogshell. The nursery only had Cogshell and Nam Doc Mai. I picked it up a few days before our flight and boxed it up the morning of our flight. We made it home safely and I repotted the bare root mango. I contacted Pine and this women sent me an email telling me that it was pretty much impossible for me to grow a mango here because it was too cold, and the tree would not survive under lights. She also told me not to water until the soil was almost completely dry. Following this advise my Cogshell almost died from dehydration. The stems were puckered up and I lost 1/3 of the stems and leaves. I joined garden web and asked for help and my mango began turning around. I did not get a flush of foliage till now and it is coming on now like gangbusters. If I had followed Pines advice, it would have died in less then a month. Now that is why I do not always think that the experts have good advice. To actually say that growing this fruit was impossible. So many sites say the complete opposite. And your pruning advise was dead on! If I had not been brave enough to trust you, bye bye to Lancetilla.
    As far as the growth cycle here, your right it is a completely diffrent ball game. The only cool weather these trees will ever have will be late spring to early summer, and late summer to early fall. I am curious to see if Cogshall will try to bloom again in spring. Can't wait to find out! I will be working on my blog page so I can show my findings.
    Andrew

  • puglvr1
    14 years ago

    Andrew, that's a great story and thanks for sharing it. You're right when it comes to us "tropical fruit tree lovers or obsessions" never say never. We love pushing my zone limits. I enjoy a challenge, I'd rather not be told I can't grow it. Let me try it and if I can't I know that I've done my best. I'm very happy for you with your success. You guys deserve the pat in the back for growing plants that aren't suppose to grow in your zone,lol...Makes the payoff that much more satisfying.

  • Andrew Scott
    14 years ago

    Dear Pug,
    I thought you might enjoy that story. It really irks me when people say that you can't grow that in NY? I mean really, yeah winters are long and cold, but we have to keep warm, and all it takes is some supplemental lighting and your good to go! I will admit defeat with Banana's. Not hard to grow, i did fruit some of the superdwarfs, but the larger ones just got to big for me. Honestly I think mango is one of the easist of the tropical fruits I have grown. I think citrus is even more difficult. The watering for the mango was my only problem. Once I got it in my head that you don't wait to water until soil is dry, I was fine. As far as the payoff, I hope it is worth the time and the MONEY!! That is the hard part, the cost especially the shipping costs. I paid about $110.00 for Julie and Lancetilla. I think it was worth it, at least so far. Thanks for the comments. I will keep you posted with my success!
    Andrew

  • swrancher
    14 years ago

    Harry -

    So did you decide to prune the Jean Ellen tree or not? If not what's going on with its flowers/fruit?

    Tony

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Tony:
    I have not pruned it. It has open flowers but no fruit set yet. Really nothing too dramatic to take a picture of. If fruits set or I decide to prune, I post more pictures.

    Harry

  • Andrew Scott
    14 years ago

    Harry,
    I know it has only been six days since the last time you updated us but how does it look? I wanted to ask you for some help with the lancetilla. I posted about this but it must have been lost. The lancetilla has sent out to growths. I am worried that the two growths are going to be flowers instead of branches. In most circumstances, I would let fruit form and remove the whole stem. This time I am worried that the tree won't bee able to handle letting fruit form. I only have 4 leaves on the whole tree, and they are beatin up. What do you think I should do? I am happy that it is growing, to me that is a good sign but I can't have fruits now. Why cant it just grow stems. I wouldn't mind flowers in a few years!! Thanks for any help Harry.
    Andrew

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Andrew:

    Sorry, still nothing to really see on this young tree. No fruit set yet. The other day I thought it was a bit unusual that two honey bees were on the infloresence. Mangos here don't usually attract honey bees. Pollinationj is usually by flies, moths, and beetles This cooler weather we are finally getting may have a negative effect on the mango fruit setting. It might be affecting the pollenator population and also may affect the viability of the pollen. So the good news, we had early mango blooms galore. Bad news....we may have to wait until a later bloom cycle for real fruit set on most of the trees.

    As far as your Lancetilla.....buds at this time of year would ordinarily be blooms. But, with the major prune job I would think that the tree would more likely put out new vegetative growth if it was in an otherwise growth conducive environment (sufficient water, nutirients, light, etc.) If it pushes blooms after a major pruning like that I would be more concerned about the trees well being. Keep me posted and best of luck with it.

    Harry

  • Andrew Scott
    14 years ago

    Harry:

    Sad to hear about the pollination rates for your mango trees. I am so dissapointed with what the stores are carrying up here right now. I decided to go on strike when it comes to buying any mangoes right now. I did see a bunch at a tops in the Latin neighborhood in Buffalo about a week ago. I should have wrote the name of the fruit down. I had never heard of it before but it looked similiar to the "rocks" they are selling as mango here. I did see some large green mangoe that were softer but was not sure if it would be a waste. Last year I ate a mango that was similiar in appearance and it was very delicious. The fruit was huge and longer then what I normally see but without a name to give you that won't help. Anyways no more mango until they come back in season. Do you know when the champagne come back in season? It seems to me it was early spring but not sure. I have stopped considering buying anymore mango trees until I can try the fruit. I am hoping that when we go down there either in July or August, I will get to sample a lot. I am rerally hoping to make it for the Fairchild mango festival, but if I have to go to a diffrent one I will. I know that Jene's will have a tropical fruit festival. When does the bell carambola come into season? I really want to try some. I am hoping I can find someone who can ship them to me. I do like the mild dlavor that I get in the dtore variety.
    I also wanted to tell you that I am now pretty sure that I was jumping the gun with the lancetilla. I looked at it after I posted this(should have done it sooner-Sorry!) and now I can tell it will be branches. I can't believe how much larger the buds are on the lancetilla compared to Julie and Cogshall. You can tell that this tree will grow larger then the other condo types. I really give the credit to the vitamin B-1. Someone here had said that they didn't think that the vitamin would make a diffrence with potted fruit trees, but I had taken pictures of the root system on the Caimito. I only have had this for a month and you could see the new root growth and the roots were still pretty small but a diffrent color then the roots towards the middle and the top.
    One last thing. I am struggling with this one and I know you rerally can't help me but if you had room for only one more tropical fruit in your collection, what would you pick and why? I don't have room for dragonfruit. I would love to grow breadfruit but I am pretty sure that is impossible. The trees are huge and I doubt there is any dwarf forms. I just ate tostones de pana for dinner tonight. I love it. Cut, fried, and mashed down and fried again. Also good cut up and boiled and used in escabeche.
    Thanks Harry, HAPPY NEW YEAR!
    Andrew

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Andrew:

    Can't be of much help...sorry. I don't grow Champagne mango and they have appeared at odd times in the store. I think they do something chemically to induce off season blooming in Mexico. That allows them to have fruits for harvest when prices are at a premium because of no other mangos available.

    I have no experience with Breadfruit except for seeing huge specimens at Excalibur and small seedlings here and there for sale. They are one of the most tropical of plants and suffer damage, including die back to the ground, at the first hint of cold weather. Not sure what their tolerance is. Perhaps one of our Caribbean forum mates could comment on that.

    As far as one fruit, if I could only add one more......I couldn't say. I would move somewhere where I could buy more than one more tree.

    Happy New Year to you too!

    Harry

  • sour_diesel
    14 years ago

    Andrew, my advice would be to forget about carambola, i just dug one out of the ground and planted it in the neighbors yard to make way for a mango tree. pretty trees, but the fruit are insipid compared to the king Mango.

    are you growing any anonas?

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Well.....I would say insipid is a bit harsh......how about "more delicate?" Carambolas don't have the level of flavor as mango...for sure...but for your growing situation, Andrew, they are interesting and very rewarding.

    Bell is in season now, I assume. I just bought a tree and planted it out about a month ago. So I am new to it. It came with 3 fruits on it when I bought it. It was about 6 feet tall in a rather small pot......3 gallon I believe. I tasted the fruit when I was at Excalibur. It was huge....sweet, with a very nice flavor and flowery aroma. I think Ohiojay has documented his first try of the Bell carambola on this forum. My other carambolas are just about maturing their winter crop. My others include Sri Kembangan, Kari, Arkin, Hart, Possum Trot, and Thai Night. I would still have carambola in the running for purchase if I were in Andrew's situation.

  • jsvand5
    14 years ago

    Sour, Did was your tree a grafted on or from seed? I have to wonder if you have tasted a good variety if you describe the flavor as insipid. I think my "Kari" fruit is great very sweet and definitely not what I would call insipid.

  • sour_diesel
    14 years ago

    im not sure what variety it was but it was grafted, from Zill. very productive, i pruned it alot and gave it an ornamental shape. it had small yellow orangish fruit.

    my neighbor has a huge one that bears large white yellow fruit almost all year.

    the fruit are good for presentation and have an interesting floral note but they just dont excite me like mangos so it has to go, im only on 1/4 acre.

  • jsvand5
    14 years ago

    Wow, I need to proof read my posts better. Don't know where that "Did" came from in my previous post.

  • Andrew Scott
    14 years ago

    Harry thanks for the positive comment. I would like to try the bell. Hmmm. I wonder if I can find someone online that is selling the fruit. I have heard plenty of good about this fruit and based on the last starfruit I had I have to say I am intrigued. It was almost like wanting to get another bite hoping the flavor would get just a little more stronger. I also like the season for this fruit. I really don't have any fruiting trees right now. Maybe the keylime when it gets bigger.
    Sour,
    I am growing some seedling anonas, and I think I have a better chance of getting good fruit from a grafted carambola then a seedling anona. Plus I have heard people say that they can be grainy. Some are sweet others are watery and not so sweet. I just don't know if it would be worth the price to buy a grafted anona and end up not liking the fruit in the end.
    Andrew

  • sour_diesel
    14 years ago

    there are many varieties, the one i had i didnt like. i know there are varieties that are very sour as well, never tried one. Bilimbi is also a close relative.

    i knew if i didnt pull it out now i might not have been able to salvage it. there was no room so it was either that or the DOT mango i want.. i gave it thought.

    i also gave away my white and ruby guavas, fuyu persimmon, and june plum to make way for mango trees.

    so now its 13 mangos, 4 anonas, 1 lychee, 1 jackfruit, 1 jaboticaba on 1/4 acre = alot of shade in about 10 years i would guess.

    if i want another mango variety i will have to wait until they grow and learn how to side graft.

  • Andrew Scott
    14 years ago

    Sour,
    Good move. I have read the description on persimmon but it doesn't sound appealing or even look appealing. I know I should try it before saying that but definetly not going to make it as far as buying a tree. I never have liked guava and I had a tree ripened one in Puerto Rico. Lychee and Jackfruit are on my to try list, but not the june plum. If I lived in FL or somewhere tropical it would be mango all the way with the mango.
    Andrew

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Happy New Year! Here is an update picture of the blooming mango that started this thread. Fianlly, I see some little mangos forming.

  • dghays
    14 years ago

    Andrew, Non-astringent oriental persimmon like Fuyu is excellent. I have around 18 mango varieties but after trying a fuyu locally grown, I absolutely had to have one. It is also a way to have fruit from Oct - Dec. Even ones from the grocery store are usually fairly good.

    If a carambola was insipid, something was wrong with that tree like they got the scion from a root sprout or something, it's hard to know. My Sri Kembangan taste great fresh, even kids like them. Mine is totally loaded right now, but I agree that mango is better.

    Gary

  • Andrew Scott
    14 years ago

    Nancy,
    How did the lancetilla make out? Did your flower buds make it? I will take pics of mine today and post it so you can see. I have two small branches now about 1 inch long. I am very happy that it made it through. I was all ready considering a new mango when I thought my lancetilla was a goner. I am glad I waited! Patience is a virtue!!
    Andrew

  • mango_kush
    14 years ago

    Andrew, in the right environment its pretty hard to kill a mango tree. ive seen new growth on even very old trees after their canopy was completely destroyed by hurricanes (my neighbor has the pictures). when you first posted about your Lancetilla in distress i wasnt too worried for you.

    Gary thanks for the heads up on the Fuyu, thats the one i have and i have heard such great things about it. luckily its going in a neighbors yard so i will still be able to enjoy it.

  • puglvr1
    14 years ago

    Hi Andrew, great news on your Lancetilla...Congrats! I always say...never say die. I will have to wait and give you an update next week? That Lancetilla is planted in the ground and we're dipping down to 38° tomorrow morning and the rest of the week looks even worse, 5 nights in a row of 30°-35°! Very unusual for us here in Central FL...I have it covered tonight and will cover it every night till the temps go above 40...but I just don't know if the blooms will survive that many nights of freeze or near freeze temps. Wish me luck...I will update next week.

    I only have one mango tree in a pot, so that's the only one I can bring inside the garage,lol..I'm very glad yours is doing well.

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Like most mangoes in my yard, no fruits set or as in this case, held, from the first bloom cycle. New bloom is beginning to sprout. Saty tuned.

  • jsvand5
    14 years ago

    Nice, Most of mine seem to be doing the same thing.

  • mullenium
    14 years ago

    I have 2 mango planted here in Phoenix, one Glenn and one Nam Doc Mai, they are grafted but the graft points are so high on the tree, does anyone know why some nursery's do the graft this high?

    the graft is at least 3-4 feet high off the soil line.. I've seen some of you guy's mango's with the graft inches off the soil line..

    whats up with that? I would prefer mine to be lower but I guess theres nothing I can do now lol.. I think they were originally purchased from a nursery called La Vernes or La Verne nursery

  • mango_kush
    14 years ago

    my alampur baneshan was a whip like that, i tipped it a month ago and now its starting its scaffolds for the canopy

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Looks real good Mango Kush, almost makes me want to hack mine back. I'll wait a bit longer before doing anything rash. But it is very tempting.

    Harry

  • swrancher
    14 years ago

    One of my whip's, a Rosigold mango tree. Put out a bunch of bloom panticles from its top and the little Mangos that formed on them are now about pea size. I want the tree to branch correctly and grow a bit more before it fruits. Should I cut the panticles off at their base or just pick the baby mangos off of the bloom panticles?

  • mango_kush
    14 years ago

    i use Fairchilds guidelines and tip them to form a canopy of three or four scaffolds and repeat for each branch each flush.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Fairchild mango pruning article

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Strange.....I went to do an updated picture of this tree and it looks virtually identical to the picture I posted a month ago. I thought this was going to be a secondary bloom. No such luck. Seems my hoped for secondary bloom may not come...here are just about anywhere else for my mangoes. This could be very bad news about this year's crop. Being the alarmist I am, I am already thinking the worst. Hoping I am worrying for nothing......have a good Sunday everyone.

    Harry

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    OK....so here's the update on the unpruned mango, Jean Ellen. As you can see, it has branched out from just below mid way on the left side of the tree and has pushed new vegetative growth from the terminal bud. This is generally what I expected and why, in my situation, pruning back young trees is not necessary to get the branching that is desired. In pot culture, it may well be better to prune severely a/k/a "pug" the tree. But grafted trees will generally branch on their own. Seedlings are much more in need of severe pruning.

  • red_sea_me
    13 years ago

    Sort of interesting Harry, in your second original post on this thread, you foreshadowed the freeze in FL this past winter. Two super heroes on this board, you predicting (or causing) the freeze and Lychee lover causing your trees to bloom so much. If only you could foreshadow me some lottery winnings. :)

    Your Jean Ellen looks great, no winter damage. I still cant believe the Fralan is only 4.5', amazing.

    -Ethan

  • mango_kush
    13 years ago

    glad to see we came to a conclusion on this topic.

    its best to prune a mango whip, unless of course you choose not too.

  • jb_fla
    13 years ago

    I think those of us in colder climates prefer the branching much lower on the tree so as to maintain a smaller height with wider tree.

  • zands
    13 years ago

    For H Hausman
    How is the Jean Ellen doing? An internet search shows a recent photo ....looking very good with little mangoes. Looking very good from the ~20 months you had it in the ground

    http://s968.photobucket.com/albums/ae167/hmhausman/?action=view&current=121_2180.jpg&&newest=1

    Here is a link that might be useful: Recent Jean Ellen

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    zands:

    The fruits are sizing up. I'm in Washington DC for the week for spring break with the kids. I'll post an update when I get back in town next week.

    Harry

  • tropicaliste
    13 years ago

    Harry
    Have you hit up the botanical gardens, there in DC it's free admission and so amazing I can't even walk by without a stop in to see what's blooming/fruiting(seriously). It's across from the Capitol building.

    :)

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    We were there today. Saw a very nice fruiting cacao, a large mamey sapote, lots and lots of blooming orchids, monstera, several citrus varieties, and quite a few other things of interest which are not coming to mind at the moment. Very nice....especially at a price of free!

    Harry

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    OK, here's the current status of the unpruned Jean Ellen. Apologies for the blurriness...I think I had the camera setting wrong.

  • cath41
    13 years ago

    Harry,

    Is that green tie too tight or is it just an optical illusion because it's dark?

    Cath

  • mangodog
    13 years ago

    Nice catch Cath - funny you should mention that. I had a string from the tag on my mango tree that had choked and girdled the trunk a bit before I removed it......BUT.....I think the green ties are plastic and flexible, so i'm guessing it is an optical illusion....and that even if it is stretching it would eventually break or breakdown....

    but of course Harry could confirm that....

    mangofrostydog

  • zands
    13 years ago

    Harry
    So that Jean Ellen was bought in summer 09. In two mango seasons it already is producing a few mangoes. It is well shaped so your non-pugging experiment worked OK. You did not snip the top to encourage branching as some do

  • puglvr1
    13 years ago

    Zands, I agree that its not necessary to "Pug" any or all mango trees. I think "pugging" is only suggested for people that want to try and grow their trees "short and wide" trying to achive a shorter trunk...as opposed to letting nature take its course and letting the tree grow naturally. Pugging is best for people that grow in pots/containers or if they have a small yard and want to maintain a more Dwarf tree for easy protection from freeze and if the trees are short...an added bonus is much easier to pick the fruits.

    If you notice Harry's tree, it has a much taller trunk than what a "pugged" tree would have. But, it is definitely not necessary to "pug" mango trees at all. They will branch out on their own regardless if you pugged it or not. Main difference is it will grow much taller and will reach its maximum height. I pug mine basically because I want to keep my trees small and short so its easier to take care of.

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    I couldn't agree more. My point was just to see what would happen since I had the space to try it and I never have the heart to drastically prune (which is attributable to my lack of patience in waiting for a tree to fruit). Clearly there are growth habit benefits to "pugging" especially for container growers.

    Cath41: Fear not....that green tape is highly stretchable and isn't girdling the tree. On the other hand, I have some wire on various mango trees which would definitely qualify as girdling. The mango tree limb or trunk just engulfed the wire and grew right around it with seemingly little effect. I try to take a picture of this nect time I do a yard shoot.

  • zands
    13 years ago

    puglvr1 ---
    What I see is that bushy dwarfish varieties of mangoes naturally pug themselves for container growing.... In that their tendency is growing low wide and bushy. Pickering and Julie would fit into this scheme.

    Others that are described as medium or vigorous growers would need pugging to be manageable in a container. Or for planting in a small yard or if you have other space limitations.
    Besides all that---So far I have had to pug two mangoes I received in bad pot bound shape. Just to give them a fresh new start

  • norm52
    12 years ago

    Hello ,
    Read that someone might have yellow Jaboticaba seed and wonder If you would consider parting with a few seeds
    Ursula
    culejools@yahoo.ca

  • hmhausman
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Here's a updated shot of this tree...still not having been pruned and having produced its first crop last summer.

    Harry

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