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boness_gw

To turn or not to turn, that is the question....

boness
16 years ago

and my delima. i have read numerios sources to include professional that it is best not to disturb the worms and thier environment any more than absolutely necessary. i also have read from an equal number of sources that it is best to turn the bed often, even weekly according to some. the two are mutually exclusive and i am a newbit at a loss.

to further complicate matters most sources target either the very large worm operation be it a wormery, farm of one sort or another or goverment vermi operation OR they target an extremly small operation, a small container in a basement or garage. i am on the small side of medium.. an outside worm pit 3X4X14 that is serving dual duty, disposing of all waste types and creating vermicompost AND ultimately transfering excess (once excess exist) to the lawn (in prep adding organic matter to lawn already).

anyone who can offer any ideas toward the turning and in general... please do. much abliged.

boness :)

Comments (12)

  • leokat75
    16 years ago

    From experience with smaller bins and large outside compost bins I say DON'T turn your bin. At least in the sense of large disruptions.

    Think of it this way. Why do you turn outside hot compost bins? You do so to introduce oxygen and get your compost to heat up. You however do not want to "heat up" your worm bin. In a large scale worm setup, for instance a windrow set up, you can get away with turning because the worms have room to move and escape hot situations. In your enclosed bin they are trapped with what ever conditions you create.

    The turning can be more or less problematic depending on how you feed your bin. If you pocket or quadrant feed then you could probably get away with fluffing the NON fed areas, as long as you don't disturb the area you are currently feeding. If you top feed across the whole bin then you might get away with some fluffing between feedings as long as the previous feeding is good and gone.

    Kat

  • boness
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    mine isn't closed. it is open, though not a windrow which as i understand is an above and on ground rectangle pile. my pit is similar other than it is a rectangle hole, pretty much looks like a really big grave (i know...UHHHH) that is 3 feet deep and which i fill to about 1 foot above ground surface. i do have it divided into 5 sections which i fill in order keeping all covered by grass, leaves and weeds and a shade cloth on the very top. so with that in mind your stance is???

  • leokat75
    16 years ago

    Covered or uncovered isn't the issue.

    You say it is divided into 5 sections. Can the worms move freely between sections or are there barriers they can't pass through between the sections? If each section is separate and the worms can't move freely then use the rules that apply to a small enclosed bin, since you would basically have 5 small enclosed (trapped) bins. Is it bare ground on the bottom of your bin, meaning can the worms go deeper if you create heat in the upper area?

    Basically, if the worms have means of escape then you "should" be ok. That said, there really isn't any reason to turn the bin. If you are worried about compaction and things becoming anaerobic I would recommend shallower bins, 3 feet deep is pretty deep. I can't imagine what a back breaking nightmare that will be to harvest. Many people that do outdoor bins just do a row or two of cinder blocks right on the ground, or dig down one row and build up one row. Maybe total height less then 2 feet. The deeper the bin the more likely the bottom will compact from the weight of the material on top.

    Bottom line - Don't turn any area that you just added food too. Grass being a particular issue. Do not turn in fresh grass clippings. Do not do anything that would normally heat up a regular compost bin. OR at most only do it shallowly so that the lower regions stay cool. BUT I think you want to turn the bottom. You could probably flip the whole contents, mixing as little as possible and get away with it.

    Question - If this thing is three feet deep, and not covered, does it not fill up like a bath tub? Excess moisture could be the bigger issue for you in the future. No amount of turning is going to prevent anaerobic conditions with everything is soaked in water.

  • boness
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    hi,no there are no physical barriers creating the divisions. i use decomposable shade cloth that is 3 feet wide making ea section also 3 ft wide to cover the existing sections and i put all new material in the open end that is not covered by cloth untill it is filled and then rotate back to the first section and start all over.

    no it doesn't fill up. moisture requires ongoing aplication when not raining due to our soil being primarily sand here in central west florida just north of tampa bay).

    I am in the process of building a wooden inset that will have a bottom and sides as well as a lid that can be opened as one or can be opened at individual sections. i hope ,even though it will have a wood bottom, it will retard the dranage of water some thus lessoning the need to add water while hopefully maintaining a better, more consistent moisture level. i am considering placing removable sectional dividers every three or four feet but hope to have a better understanding of the process before deciding and hope to get feedback on the message boards as well.

    i only "want" to turn the material if it is benificial to do so. you are correct in saying i am concerned about whether or not i should adress the compaction issue and if so how deep?
    plese feel free to ask for any additional info that may aid you in rendering guidence. i really apreciate your taking time to discuss this issue. i really want to be good at this and read books, sites and articles as well as running experiments. there seem to be issues where the literature either isn't consistent or is incomplete, especially if you are talking about an outside, inground pit vs a small inside container setup or a large farming or government operation.

    one other consideration i am considering when i set up the wooden pit insert is lining the bottom with clay, possibly helping to retard the water drainage some, before setting the insert. look forward to reading your thoughts and that goes for all members. thanks wvpowers

  • leokat75
    16 years ago

    "i only "want" to turn the material if it is benificial to do so."

    If this is the case, then as I have said before there is no reason that you should "need" to turn the pile, it is more likely to be detrimental then beneficial. If you "need" to turn the pile due to compaction issues then the issue is with your set up. As I said before a 3 foot deep pit, in my opinion, is rife with issues - too deep causing compaction, a total pain to harvest etc. In that case fix the issue, the bin construction. The whole worm farming experience, if done right, should be easy with very little input on your part. You are possibly over thinking the issue. I also don't have enough experience with the sand situation or the soil environment in Florida to offer any better advice then I already have.

    Kat

  • trancegemini_wa
    16 years ago

    I wouldnt recommend turning either. There is no need to do it with a worm set up, the worms aerate the bed themselves as they move through it. I also wouldnt line the bottom. a worm set up should have drainage in case you overwater it, and I think the bottom layer will just become sour and too wet. what you should do though, is cover it. you are losing moisture to eveporation so by putting a lid on it, or even old carpet or wet hessian, it will stop the evaporation and a lot of the drying out you are having, and worms like it cool and moist, they dont want to be exposed to the light so they will come up higher if you cover it.

  • boness
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    hi all, update...i have completed building the inset. it is wood framed with a chicken wire bottom and sides to protect against invaders. it is divided into 4 4 ft sections,each with a separate wood lid. i am not lining the bottom with clay instead depending on the cover provided by the 5/8 inch thick plywood lids to decrease evap and maintain consistent moisture. i did not turn per recommendations and will remove matter from pit with pithfork in clumps as is to the extent possibly in order to place the inset, then return the compost, worms etc in the same manner. after placing the inset, the depth will be between 2.5 and 3 feet of which one foot will be above ground, the rest below. the sections will be divided by removable separators framed with 1x4s with chicken wire in the middle major portion thus allowing the worms to migrate.
    IYO am i on track and can you offer any further guidence? thanks again looking forward to your info :)
    wvpowers

  • newoahuwormer
    16 years ago

    oh no, I turned mine a couple of weeks ago because I was concerned about compacting. It wasn't tooo bad and I wanted to re-position the pvc w/ holes (extra aeration). so I won't do that anymore!!

  • rutgers1
    16 years ago

    I turn mine several times per week when I am adding new food. It is a very small bin. I do it to add the new food, but also just to check to see how things are doing in there. I have had a problem with the newspaper getting matted in the past, so I like to turn it for that purpose too. I have so many worms it is unbelievable. I've never had a problem with it heating up.

  • trancegemini_wa
    16 years ago

    Bones it sounds like a good set up, well done and just removing enough bedding to put the dividers in is a good idea, there will be little disruption to the bin by doing that.

    "I turn mine several times per week when I am adding new food"

    but as pointed out above by kat, it's just not necessary to turn and you're not trying to create a composting system with a worm bin. it's also counter productive, worms do not like the disruption of turning their environment over, each time you do it, they have to re settle themselves. If you want to turn your bin several times a week then that is totally your choice, but there is just no need to, worms are capable of aerating their own environment.

  • onafixedincome
    16 years ago

    Okay, now I have a very different viewpoint on turning the beds.

    I have mine under the rabbit cages, and they MUST compost all the droppings as fast as possible--or at least the droppings must be covered regularly to discourage odor and flies.

    Thus, I 'flip the beds' at least once a month, turning the upper portion under with a pitchfork and to a depth of the tines. This not only puts the surface manure down where the worms are, but also helps to move urine spots (hot wet anaerobic goop) to spread them out and allow them to become aerobic and usable to the worms.

    When I put the beds in, I dug down a pitchfork's depth plus a few inches, and then lined the bottom with river sand. When I flip the beds, the sand is left undisturbed and drainage remains intact.

    I then 'dust' the beds with a little supplemental calcium and nutrients, a mix of bone meal, blood meal, and whatever else is cheap at the nursery (kelp meal, usually, maybe some greensand). Worm reproduction is notably increased in dusted beds.

    And drainage it needs! I keep my beds quite damp between turnings and 'slurry' the beds with forceful watering which makes them essentially very rapidly-draining mudpits. By the next day, they are once again pretty optimal in moisture and the worms are working well.

    In winter, the beds rest. I debulk and flip the ones that won't be doing much in winter and add those worms to the beds which are going to have all the manure raked atop them through winter. This keeps in warmth and gives them six months or so to make serious whoopee.

    :) It seems to work. The winter beds come out of their 'rest' with tons of new worms to re-seed the summer beds, and everything has been consumed to just below the top layer of manure and hay. They get little extra anything in winter, just lots of peace and quiet.

    The best-working summer beds are generally the wettest; and those I rarely need to flip, because as soon as manure hits, it's almost like a worm leaps up to grab it! Very nice indeed. If they all worked that well, I'd be so very happy.... :)

  • TravelingBiker
    12 years ago

    If you're having problems with anerobic conditions in your bin, you'll need to turn the bin to keep as much of your bin aerobic as possible. This is extremely important with RM bins. The major draw back to RM bins is a lack of oxygen, even when drilled with many holes. I am using RM bin stacking system very successfully after learning I have to turn the bins once a week. Now I have many worms producing lots of compost every month.

    I also have a worm inn. There is lots of oxygen available to all parts of the bin, so there is no need to turn, and I don't touch it, except to scrape material out of the bottom at harvest time.

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