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pskvorc

Planning on vermiculture

pskvorc
10 years ago

I live in south central Alaska, about 50 mile north of Anchorage. The "growth zone" is between 3 and 4.

Within the next month I will be ordering some worms (Eisenia fetida) to start raising them. My primary interest is in soil production, but worm production is a very close second.

On a seasonal basis in Alaska, primary production can be high, but on an annual basis, it is VERY low. (There are often 50 annuli per inch on birch and spruce trees.) Therefore, soil production is low. While there are those in Alaska that "compost" - in the typical use of the term - there is a great deal of labor associated with marginal product volume and quality.

While my interest in vermiculture has many roots, the PRODUCTS I am interested in are worms and soil.

I have available at the moment:
1) an unlimited supply of goat manure (mixed with straw to a ratio of about 5:1 manure to straw by weight);
2) an almost unlimited (20 cubic yards per year) supply of birch leaves,
3) a large supply (2 to 3 cubic yards per year), of hardwood saw "dust"),
4) about 5 cubic yards per year of grass clippings,
5) currently about 2 cubic yards of shredded paper/cardboard with a weekly production of a pound or two,
6) about a half a pound per week of coffee grounds,
7) and about 10 chicken egg shells per week (which I grind using a mortar and pestle) into pieces smaller than 0.5mm.

I have a modest leaf shredder

I intend to start relatively modestly with one commercially available "worm farm" with 4 or 5 stacked bins. This "farm" will be in my shop that is kept at a temperature of 60 degrees F. It is my intent to shred and mix (using the leaf shredder) the birch leaves and goat manure/straw mixture.

Here are my questions:

1) Given the "food" I have available, and especially the goat manure, what would "you" recommend that I use as food? (I would point out that native worms LOVE birch leaf piles in the autumn even without them being shredding first.)

2) How much of the eggshells should I add on what schedule - weekly, biweekly, monthly?

3) At this temperature, what do you THINK (I'm not trying to pin anyone down), would be the SOIL production per unit time?

4) At this temperature, what do you THINK the worm production - surplus to be harvested for use as fish food - would be per unit time?

5) Given the "system" I have described, do you see any potential areas of concern?

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my specific questions. I would add that I have looked through the first 100 threads in this site.

Paul

Comments (30)

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here are my answers:

    1) Given the "food" I have available, and especially the goat manure, what would "you" recommend that I use as food? (I would point out that native worms LOVE birch leaf piles in the autumn even without them being shredding first.) I would use every bit of the listed material and search out more nitrogen.

    2) How much of the eggshells should I add on what schedule - weekly, biweekly, monthly? Add as many egg shells as you can gather. They need not be labor intensive. Putting them in halved or just crushed with a quick squeeze of the hand will be fine. The reason to pulverize them would be for those who dislike ever seeing the egg shells again. The worms like the halve shells and make them their hangout. I add the shells when I am tired of looking at them collecting on the kitchen sink. If somebody brought me a coffee jar of crushed shells I would possibly just dump the whole jar in.

    3) At this temperature, what do you THINK (I'm not trying to pin anyone down), would be the SOIL production per unit time? I have that temperature and things are slow. Try to get a bit more temperature. Either move the bin closer to the heat or try the Christmas tree lights in the tube. I just live with the cool temperature and slow production.

    4) At this temperature, what do you THINK the worm production - surplus to be harvested for use as fish food - would be per unit time?
    When you get all of your trays in action and the tray you want to harvest has been put on the top to dry out a bit before harvesting, I would like to think you could harvest one full tray every 3 months with no extra heat. This would allow many of the worms to migrate into the bin. The remaining worms and material can be removed with no loss to the system.

    5) Given the "system" I have described, do you see any potential areas of concern? Some of us keep two bins going in case of the loss of one. Could you keep a tiny colony in a separate location?

    I am looking forward to see all the answers you get because you asked such great questions. The information you took the time to give us will result in the best answers possible since we have something to work with.

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you very much for your responses!

    I 'like' the Christmas tree light heating suggestion. I think that is doable. I cannot move 'closer to the heat' as my shop has in-floor radiant panel heating. The good news is that radiant panel heating works by making all surfaces "radiant" panels. That would include the worm boxes, meaning that they should be at least a few degrees above ambient air temperature.

    I will probably continue to grind the eggshells not because I fail to appreciate that it is unnecessary, but because I enjoy the process. That said, I definitely see the value of providing uncrushed shells as refugia, and will do that.

    "Search out more nitrogen". For those that are not familiar with goats, they urinate where they sleep. In colder climates, those that keep goats know that the combination of goat urine, feces and bedding straw will generate some heat through decomposition. (Truthfully, not a whole lot.) Given that the 'litter' has a considerable amount of urine in it, do you still recommend that I find an additional source of nitrogen?

    "Some of us keep two bins going in case of the loss of one." Excellent suggestion.

    "I would not waste money on a commercial bin in your situation. Build worm systems out of scrap or on the cheap, and spend money on more worms." I especially like the "spend money on more worms". I will need "your" help on building my own bins. I want a system that I can keep indoors AND that can be constructed for ease of use, not just low cost. I have looked at youtube videos and other on-line videos of "Walmart" plastic tub-based systems. I noticed two points about those that concerned me:
    1) The number of holes drilled in them seemed considerably less than the number of holes in commercially available systems, and
    2) Air circulation seemed like it would be insufficient in the ones I saw.

    If "you" can point me to a "tried and true" method/plan that some of you have had success with, (You may want to use chuckiebtoo's mini-tote systems."), I would be more than happy to give that a try.

    I am "nervous" about outdoor systems. Lots of people in Alaska that have a genuine desire to do "X" - that would be "easy" to do in places other than AK - spend a GREAT deal of time, energy and money on their desire, and have what can only generously be described as "marginal" success. There are gardening "experts" in Alaska that claim that we can compost "successfully". I suppose that is technically true, but it is not true by ANY measure someone outside of Alaska would use. These same "experts" sing high the praises of vermiculture, but I am VERY wary of their claims because I know the merits of their other claims.

    That said: I was quite surprised this fall when I helped a friend take 20 "garbage" bags of leaves to the dump. Actually, I couldn't stand it, and took them home, BECAUSE there were hundreds of worms under the bags and between them - wherever it was dark and moist. Therefore I am heartened that earthworms native to Alaska clearly have no problems over-wintering. I am just too inexperienced with vermiculture and too experienced with 'spitting into the wind' in Alaska with "gardening" wants, to have confidence that "outdoor" vermiculture would be anything other than lots of effort with little product. Let me be clear that I am relatively easily convinced that such concern is unfounded, but... you can't grow peaches in Alaska no matter how much you WANT to.

    Finally, with respect to: "I would use every bit of the listed material", I'm a bit pedestrian when it comes to "how to do" things. Especially until I get some experience under my belt. Therefore, if I were to make a 4-bin system to start with, would "you" add equal parts of all of the various components I listed, or would you use more of one component or another?

    Thanks again - very much - for taking the time to respond with helpful comments and suggestions.

    Paul

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Deleted double post.

    This post was edited by pskvorc on Sat, Mar 15, 14 at 15:19

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nope. I liked mendopete's answer better than mine. An outside bin for the outside type stuff like goat waste is a good idea when mixed with an inside bin for nicer waste. I was answering really quickly. I would like to see some kitchen waste in there for no particular reason. Even the purchased bins have changed design recently when they realized more air was needed. Or people set them up with the levels tilted a bit to let in more air. I would just fill up the whole thing every level with everything mixed and dump in the worms. I guess that is why I went with the Worm Inn. Not that that is perfect as per my many issues.

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great! I didn't want to have to haul chicken poop. :)

    Can "you" (equinoxequinox or anyone else) point me to a practical design for a "home made" vermiculture setup of the 'hobby' size I am planning?

    Thanks,
    Paul

    PS - By the way, I am not getting email notifications of response to my posts. I have "subscribed" to all threads in which I have a post, and I have checked my "junk mail" box. Any suggestions about that?

    Thanks,
    Paul

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "a practical design for a "home made" vermiculture setup of the 'hobby' size" that is sort of the crux of what we have been going for here. Many of us have attempted to create the Perfect Hobby Worm Bin. Perhaps some of us have succeeded. Those of us who have not reached that level are what keep us in business or posts here. Possibly see what the commercial set ups are doing and drag that information, kicking and screaming, back here. Facts that were the holy grail of vermicomposting have been crushed here. Especially any instructions that arrive or do not arrive with purchased $$$ worm bin systems. We have two main issues, at least. The first is the total lack and disreguard the worms have for reading the instructions on our $$$ systems. (Or perhaps it was the instruction writers who never viewed a worm in their life.) I can appreciate not wanting to lift 60 pounds of trays to put a banana peel, tea bag, orange peel and two coffee filters into a bin. The worms never seem to cooperate for even the most friendly and kind hearted of vermicomposters and just follow the instructions and migrate UP. With a finished tray they are comfortable migrating DOWN. Perhaps the designers had the blueprints upside down? Wait I seem to be on a tangent again. The second I'll remember tomorrow.

    Perhaps they have the wrong e-mail address. Possibly resign up with a near similar name.

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    According to my 'profile', the email address is correct.

    The "up vs down" issue is most assuredly related to some stimulus, the most likely being temperature or moisture content, but could be any of a number of other stimuli like oxygen content or some chemical stimuli like the concentration of worm metabolic by-products or 'unprocessed' foodstuffs.

    While I appreciate the optimal "window" of temperature at which production is maximized, I suspect there is a narrower temperature preference somewhere within that "operating window". It seems to be widely recognized that E. fetida are photophobic. Since light is not an issue in stacked trays, there must be some other reason (stimulus) that the worms migrate vertically. Temperature and moisture content seem the most likely "suspects". I wonder if motion or sound could be used to 'herd' them. (Seeing as 'herd' is a term I commonly see attached to a group of worms.)

    When I was a kid we used to use two methods for collecting wild earthworms for fishing: "vibration" and electricity. We vibrated the ground by pounding about a foot of a stick about 4 feet long into the ground where we thought there were good fishin' worms. Then a 1x4, or something similar with transverse ridges cut about an inch apart or so, was rubbed across the top of the stick in the ground creating pretty good vibrations. In a minute or so, one could pick worms from the ground within about a 3 to 5 foot radius.

    The other method was to 'call' the worms up with an old military field radio. The transmitting wires were simply stuck in the ground about three feet apart and the hand-crank turned until the worms started showing up on the surface.

    The point is: Seems like stimuli other than light could be used to 'encourage' the 'herd' to move in a particular direction.

    All of the above said understanding full well that for many, if not most, vermiculturists maximizing harvesting efficiency is NOT their primary interest in raising worms.

    Paul

  • sbryce_gw
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mix your goat manure and birch leaves together. Shoot for about a 20:1 C:N. (or don't. You should be fairly close anyway.) Compost them using conventional methods until they are past the heating stage. This will give you a nearly ideal material that will serve as both bedding and food. If you pre-copmost, you may be able to mix together everything you have available to you, compost it past the heating stage, and grow your worms in it. The goat manure and grass clippings should supply enough nitrogen that you won't need additional food.

    Mendopete's suggestions are good, but I would be concerned about the manure/leaf mixture heating up and killing the worms.

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you sbryce.

    It was my initial thought to combine goat litter, leaves and shredded paper+cardboard in the following ratio: 2:2:1. I am a little spooky about using the saw dust. I am concerned it might agglomerate and hold water, or otherwise somehow "gum up the works". If "you" (sbryce or anyone else), think(s) that concern is unfounded, then I will add the sawdust to the 'recipe'. I am definitely looking for a way to get the sawdust into my soil.

    My idea was to run the above mixture (less the sawdust) through the leaf shredder more as a means of mixing and aerating it than of shredding the leaves. The goat litter is fairly compacted coming off of the pile.

    Do you think the volume of "compost" contained in a "hobby" sized worm bin would have sufficient mass to heat up above a critical temperature, say 80 degrees F if the ambient temperature was 60 degrees F (the temperature I maintain my shop)? It's not a rhetorical question. My experience with composting thermogenesis
    is from the gigantic piles of grass clippings that the city of San Diego used to (may still) let the public come take "compost" from. Those piles covered acres of ground 20 feet deep. At the core, some of that compost was too hot to touch.

    I am imagining something on the order of 2 cubic feet of "compost" per tray, and at most, 4 stacked trays. (This not counting the "back-up, not all eggs/worms in one basket".)

    In this part of Alaska, with goats bedding on about a foot of straw/feces/urine, there is sufficient heat generated to keep the bedding from freezing in an unheated barn. However, one would not know there is "heat" being generated without realizing that the bedding isn't freezing in below freezing temperatures. And that is with maybe a couple of cubic yards of the 'bedding'. Granted only about a foot thick, but lots of "lateral" volume. I have never actually felt "heat" in the bedding.

    By the same token, at first, I will be collecting the goat "litter" from a large pile (20 cubic yards) that is, at the bottom, maybe 10 years old. The leaves would be last seasons.

    I know of no one in Alaska that is successful in "composting" to the point of making "soil", whole birch leaves. All of those that compost leaves with any level of success, shred them, and even then those people alternate layers of grass with layers of leaves, and THEN it often takes two seasons for complete decomposition. With the exception of one person, all of the people I know personally that compost "successfully" compost only grass clippings and "kitchen" waste. The one exception shreds the leaves and layers with grass clippings. He tells me it takes a full year to get something he can use to "amend" his garden soil.

    There are a LOT of "experts" in Alaska that say a LOT of things "should" work. In PRACTICAL practice, darn few of them do. The reality is that decomposition - whatever pathway it takes - is a temperature driven process, and in the sub-arctic, decomposition is a VERY slow process.

    Thanks again for taking the time to respond. I am encouraged by your suggestion that I should be able to come up with a substrate that is both bedding and food by mixing the components I have in hand.

    Paul

  • sbryce_gw
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    10 year old goat litter mixed with last year's leaves may not need to be pre-composted. Yes, heat can be an issue in a worm bin, but 10 year old goat littler is probably already past the heating stage. I like the idea of sending it through the shredder to both mix it and break it up. I'd let it sit for a week or so to see if it heats. If not, you should be able to feed it directly to the worms.

    As for how this will all work over an Alaska winter, I have no idea.

    This post was edited by sbryce on Tue, Mar 18, 14 at 0:15

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, the plan is to maintain the "farm" in my shop at 60 degrees F year round. Adding additional heat (IE Christmas lights) as necessary to get up to 70-ish in the worm bins.

    mendopete suggested above, setting up an outdoor system, and I am seriously considering it. I want to get the indoor system going for sure, and if I can convince myself that I can make a viable outdoor system, I most certainly will.

    We have native earthworms here, and by "here" I mean right in my yard. So clearly they can survive the winters. WHERE they survive the winters is the "64,000 dollar question". (The subnivean space should never be colder that about 20 degrees F, but the frost-line (32 F) can extend for more than 4 feet in depth.)

    I have some optimism that I can create a suitable environment in an outdoor system. I do NOT expect its production to equal - especially on an annual basis - the production of an indoor system, but I readily acknowledge that that statement is being made by a complete vermiculture novice with no experience. I hope to be proven wrong.

    Thanks again for taking the time to share your experience,
    Paul

  • chuckiebtoo
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    With a year-round 60 degree environment for your worms, you might as well be in Florida. I wouldn't worry about converting and/or altering proven, successful techniques to fit Alaskan weather conditions.

    Definitely consider using veggie/fruit wastes from your home as food sources. The other half of the self-satisfaction quality of vermicomposting is the whole mind-set of conservation, recycling, and "making something out of nothing while doing things good for the planet",,,,and whatnot.

    Keep us up to date on successes and "catastrophes".

    Chuckiebtoo

  • mendopete
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Having earthwoms present does not mean that they survived the winter, The species survived because the worms bred and left ample cocoons for future generations. I doubt the worms survive the winter there, but cocoons will for sure.

    As CB2 said, indoor wormin' in the shop will be EZ. I think commercial bins are good for some folks with limited space. Small, medium, or large totes are as good, more user friendly, cheaper and can save as much space. I nearly bit on a $$ bin when I started but I am SO glad I saved my money.

    Worm bins are everywhere. Buckets, planting pots, old bathtub, sink, or toilet. Worms do not care. Tie a knot in some old jeans and hang under a tree. Fabric grow-bag planters are EXCELLENT for worms. Anything at least 6" deep can be a worm bin.

    Outdoor breeder box... just do it! I believe In 5 months, a 2'x2'x2' box would outdo your year-round commercial bin in both VC and worm production. I believe stacking trays would slow down the breeding rate.

    Again, what are your goals. Need casts for a few houseplants or community garden? Worms for a goldfish or large aquaculture system?

    Don't try and overthink this. Worms are easy!!

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I certainly hope "you all" (or y'all as the case may be) believe me when I say I appreciate your comments and suggestions.

    WRT "stacking" bins: I thought that was for production purposes, ("migration" and harvesting), not space. Space - both indoor and out - is not particularly an issue for me. I would just as soon set four bins separately on the floor or on an expanded metal shelf. This would greatly mitigate my concern about air flow.

    WRT "overwinter survival": I'd be surprised if no adult or juveniles overwintered "in the wild" up here. I could be wrong, and I intend to look in to it. In a "raised bed" like one would see for plants, it is difficult to get temperatures over 70 degrees for more than a few days in a 3-month (June, July, August) summer. Two summers ago, we had 3 days ALL summer where the ambient temperature was greater than 70 degrees F.

    "I nearly bit on a $$ bin when I started but I am SO glad I saved my money."
    I have taken that repeated note to heart. No commercial bins for me at this time.

    WRT "outdoor breeder box": I am convinced.
    2'x2'x2' - or close thereabouts - is what I will do. Plans or a brief description of what you have in mind would be appreciated. Let me be specific:
    1) Wood or "other" construction?
    2) If not wood then what?
    3) How close to the top of the 2' should food and bedding be? It is my intent to use a combination of birch leaves and goat litter with no worm "bedding" and go "bottomless".

    Without "calling them up" (see above post), it strikes me that harvesting worms from such an outdoor setup might be frustrating. Any suggestions on design, especially those that would facilitate harvesting worms, would be well appreciated. I'm too old to be reinventing the wheel with every new endeavor in which I 'get the urge'.

    WRT "what are your goals": My primary interest is in "soil" - VC - but a VERY close second is worm production for 6 to 10 Oscar-like fish. I would like to provide each adult fish with at least a worm a day, and two/day would be better. I also have a small zooplankton "farm" so, the worms do not represent the total source of food for the fish.

    As for the volume of VC ("soil") desired, the MAX I can get is the goal. My interest is in MAKING soil, not so much in making "good" soil. The more the better. "Good" soil is a nice by-product of making ANY soil, but "plain" soil is good enough. I have lots of "stuff" (the resources listed in the first post) that I want to 'turn into' soil. If I could get a few cubic yards of VC per year, I'd be an extremely happy - vegetable and worm - 'farmer'.

    I am aware that four bins of worms aren't likely to produce "a few" cubic yards of VC per year. At least that is my understanding of production. My intent with an initial 4-bin indoor system is to determine what level of production CAN be achieved, and increase that system's size until I can get AT LEAST a single cubic yard of VC per year. If that is not achievable, then worm production sufficient to maintain a constant harvest of 10 to 20 adult worms per day, would become the primary goal. If that is not reasonably achievable with the resources I have available, then I will probably become yet another Alaskan that has started vermicomposting and abandoned it. (I know first-hand, three such people.)

    All of the comments and suggestions in this thread have substantially modified my original ideas/plans. I am inclined to "fill my boots" sooner than expected. As soon as I hear back regarding "plans" or "designs", I will begin construction of both indoor and outdoor systems.

    Considering what I read about "forum policy" I don't know how to ask "delicately" where I should get worms. My initial thought for the 4-bin indoor system was "a pound or two". Unless I am advised otherwise, I am now considering much more than that - 5 pounds or more.

    My initial thought was to buy worms with the commercially available bins. Now that commercial bins are "out" and I can spend that money on more worms, I would appreciate suggestions (private if necessary to comply with forum policies), on where to get those worms.

    Let me state clearly what I now have as a "plan" as a result of comments and suggestions made in this thread:

    1) No commercial bins,
    2) Four "home-made" bins - not stacked - that will be kept in my shop.
    3) "Christmas tree" lights will augment heat in shop to achieve approximately 70 degrees F in worm bins.
    4) Mix birch leaves and aged goat litter and do not be concerned about separate "bedding" and "food".
    5) Add sawdust, shredded paper and cardboard to goat litter and leaf mixture if necessary to maintain moisture/humidity in bins.
    6) Add coffee grounds, tea, and egg shells "ad libitum".
    7) Make at least one 2'x2'x2' bin outdoors. (At the moment I am inclined to at least one, and maybe two more for a total of 3.)
    "Stir until done."

    Given what I have described above, how many worms would "you" suggest to start with for the four indoor bins ("standard" plastic bin size) plus the 3 outdoor 2'x2'x2' bins?

    Thanks again,
    Paul

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I went back and reread the thread, and need to apologize to mendopete, as he already answered most of my above questions in his first post.

    "1) Build an outdoor system to use as a breeder box in the 4-5 warmer months. With all your resources available, 5lbs of worms started soon in a 4'x8' bear-proof box could produce 20 lbs or more of worms to be harvested in the fall. Use your goat manure, straw, and leaves in this system. If you can keep out the critters, the system should thrive.
    When you harvest in the fall. leave some worms and VC behind, Refill your box 3/4 full with manure and top it off with as many leaves as you can. I would bet you will have another box full of worms when the weather warms up again ;)
    2) Start a couple of small tote systems in tour shop. Add kitchen waste, paper, ect. to these bins. You can easily observe worm activity and learn about indoor wormin'. It is different than outdoors. Much harder I believe. You may want to use chuckiebtoo's mini-tote systems. "

    "Five pounds of worms in a 4'x8' box."
    So, I'm thinking about the same 5 pounds in three (or four) 2'x2'x2' boxes

    Add grass clipping for extra nitrogen.

    Paul

    .

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Worm bins are everywhere. Buckets, planting pots, old bathtub, sink, or toilet." Mendopete, I'm imagining a miles long walking path. Along the way, tucked out of common site, there is a special, handy but seldom used outhouse... with a unique waterless porcelain toilet. So cool.

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm answering your questions one at a time. Or at least posting my thoughts of varied parts of your posts. "I appreciate your comments and suggestions." The homework you did of reading posts paid off. It gave us something to work with and sink our teeth into. Way easier than waiting until it rots and slurping up the bacteria.

    "Add grass clipping for extra nitrogen." Well we have a handier source but are shy to mention it.

    WRT = With Regards To

    "stacking" bins: I thought that was for production purposes" I do not know about that but it certainly works for a logical sales pitch to hobbyists. If one landed on my door step I would not say no to it. I still remember a YouTube of some guy holding up a tray with tons of worms just dangling out of the many holes. I thought it was called Bothering the Worms.

    2'x2'x2'? Can you just take all of the goat stuff, leaves, plus and put it in one big pile on the south side of a structure in as much sun as possible?

    " (There are often 50 annuli per inch on birch and spruce trees.) " A more important fact than people may realize.

    "in-floor radiant panel heating." Lucky dog you. I do not even get that heat in the evening and I'm a person. Can the bin material touch the floor and gather that heat?

  • mendopete
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Build your box out of whatever is on-hand. Any wood is fine. Cedar lasts longer than most Use logs like you are building a cabin. I guess bear-proof equals 2x lumber or 3/4" plywood??? My "mother bin" is 3'x5'x18", built out of twice recycled 4x6 cedar posts, stacked 3 high.

    Build your box in full sun for solar heating.

    You should probably build 1 box to start (ie: 2'x6' rather than 3 ea, 2'x2').Easier to manage and the larger mass of manure will help add heat. Plan for expansion in future seasons The bin can be 12"-24" tall or more. Taller and bigger allows more room for extra manure and leaves for overwintering. Shorter is easier to dig out the goods

    The goods: You should probably plan on harvesting when the bin temps dip much below 60F. Hopefully,you will keep it warmer with manure and leaves. until then! Take most everything out and move indoors. Start lots of new bins.

    I would build a removable side for harvesting. It's easier than shoveling up and out.
    Start composting the manure mixed with leaves soon. Make a 3'x3' or larger pile, get it wet and see if it heats up Learn about your foodstock and how it reacts. I doubt 8 yo manure will heat too much. Once the bin is established the heat will help you.

    I would try stocking about 1/2 -1 lb of worms per sq'

    Also its best to locally source you worms if possible. I have not bought worms.

    This post was edited by mendopete on Wed, Mar 19, 14 at 0:56

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "SO glad I saved my money" mostly it might be that you can design a better wheel for your location.

    "If not wood then what?" Is determined by what is available to you in your area for low cost. Each person's answer is different.

    "Any suggestions on design" I read something once that told an old time story, Backwoods Home? where a farmer used to have all of his farms manure put in bins and pushed over a wire to a central dump consisting of a tree posted area. In the spring most all, but not all of the bin was put on the fields. Worms grew in this bin.

    Whatcha using the worms for? Somebody mentionend fish. Is this vermicomposting part of a larger system?

    "how many worms" the super frugal would only need 14 for 7 bins.

    "worm production for 6 to 10 Oscar-like fish" There is nothing funner than feeding worms or crickets to Oscars. Please keep your fingers out of the way.

    I would like to read posts somewhere on "zooplankton "farm". I am interested in all things that can go into an aquaponics system that are not plant or animal. Snails, crawfish, and more. That shrimp that needs only one to breed because they are born pregnant.

    "Good" soil"" The advantage of castings is the calcium coating which makes each item separate. This also helps with water retention.

    "delicately" I'd just title a post "5 Pounds, Where From?" I think the laws are against posters advertising their wares Not against asking where one can get 5 pounds from that are shipped in boxes that way not less than 5 pounds.

    Purchasing from close to you is nice. Like right close, like a farmers market if possible after a lot of chatting. Or traveling a tiny bit to pick the up hot off the... well not grill.

    I'm thinking the best use for vermicastings in your area might be in vermicasting tea sprayed onto crops and on to trees and the grounds. This would multiply the benefits of your work.

    Do you post about your system for fish? I'm interested in how they are kept warm when the power goes out. Also I want a radiant heat floor. All houses should have them.

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rather than harvesting from the bins daily how about harvesting and keeping some worms available and on the hoof until their early demise?

    Averting my eyes so as not to see any Hungry Birds.

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm getting "the picture". Thank you for putting up with my pedestrian - and occasionally redundant - questions.

    I'll check, but I really don't think I can find worms locally other than "fishin' worms" (very large night-crawlers) at Walmart, and that wouldn't be "cheap" even if they were the 'right' worms.

    "On the floor" is doable for increased heat as it will transfer directly to the bins.

    "In the sun" is actually doable. I just built a couple of "planters" that may be almost perfect outdoor worm bins, at least for this neck o' the woods. The back (north) wall of these planters is the south-facing wall of my shop. They are about 2' deep by 2' wide by 8' long. They are stone-walled (landscaping blocks), and "harvesting" could be a pain if I don't come up with an innovation of some sort, but not only would they get the most sun regardless of season, they would also get some heat from the shop in the winter.

    I just raise fish for fun. You can go here www.biopar.com to see what I "do".

    I will post separately about the zooplankton 'farm'. Here I can extract a little 'revenge'. :) "Just" go out to any local lake or pond, grab some submergent vegetation, (Elodea sp. Vallisneria sp. or whatever you have other than "scum" and benthic algae), throw it in a 10 gal tank, ($9 locally in AK), bubbling gently is usually better than no aeration, and "stand by". "If you build it" they will grow.

    If you want to supercharge your zooplankton farm, buy two or three FEEDER goldfish (usually 10 cents each), and another 5 or 10 gal tank. Put the goldfish in that tank and inoculate WITH LAKE WATER. (It has the "proper" phytoplankton for your area.) Put tank in direct sun if you can without parboiling the goldfish. Indirect sun is very nearly as good. Just don't let them get too hot - over 80 degree F water temp. (Goldfish are actually a cold-water fish.) In 5 to 7 DAYS the water in the goldfish tank will be "pea soup". Goldfish are very high nitrogen producers which is usually the nutrient most needed by phytoplankton. Feed this soup to the zopes growing in the other tank. DO NOT put goldfish in zope tank or soon no zopes.

    DO NOT TURN THE GOLDFISH LOOSE WHEN YOU ARE FINISHED WITH THEM! Give them away, or flush them down the toilet or, if you want to "euthanize" them as humanely as possible, put them in water in a ziplock bag and put them in the freezer. They will go to "sleep" and freeze. Or you could actually eat them yourself.

    Other than feeding fish, I don't know why one would want to 'farm' zooplankton, but I'm sure someone will have a novel idea. I suppose they could be added to a worm bin for some form of nutrient, but I don't know off of the top of my head what that would be.

    Bear-proof - not an issue one way or the other, :) but I haven't seen any bears around my place for several years.

    "I would try stocking about 1/2 -1 lb of worms per sq' ".

    That translates to 1.5 to 3 pounds per 24"x18" indoor bin, and 16 to 32 pounds in a 4'x8' outdoor bin. Based on the cheapest prices I have been seeing on EBay, that would be $550 to $1100 for four indoor bins and two 2'x2'x8' outdoor bins. Yikes! I can buy a lot of fish food and bagged soil for that kind of cash.

    In-floor (radiant panel) heating is indeed "good". Couple it with a ground-coupled heat exchange system (I do not have one, but I have a friend that does), and you move much closer to 'off the grid'.

    As for keeping fish 'warm' when the power goes out: I built my house of what are called "SIPS" or structural insulated panels. http://www.premiersips.com/ The walls are 8" thick (R-32) and the roof is 10" thick (R-40). A few years back, we had a 102-hour period where the wind-speed did not drop BELOW 90 mph. ("Hurricane" is 70 MPH.) Gusts - frequent gusts - to 120 mph. I'm sure "you" didn't even hear about it, and yet it was like having a category 2 hurricane on-site FOR FOUR DAYS.

    While the ambient temperature was only about 0 to 10 degrees F, the wind-chill was colder than -60 degrees F for that full 102 hours. (By the way, wind-chill effects ANYTHING - living or not - that generates heat; a car, a person, or a house, etc.) The power went out shortly BEFORE the 102-hour interval I mentioned. When the power came back on at the end of that interval, I was just about to go out and get "auxiliary" heat because the temperature in the house was down to 45 degrees F, and the house is about 3000 sf. (As a result of that event, I now have an auxiliary generator that my house "plugs into".) All of which was/is irrelevant with respect to the fish, as they are native North American fish, not "tropical", and can handle most temperature fluctuations in my house. Over heating is actually a bigger issue than too cold. Actually, because I couldn't keep the house COOLER than about 80, I just last week turned my heating system to "stand-by". We're down to about 70 now.

    Your collective enthusiasm is heartening. I am much more enthused and optimistic about "worming" than I was when I started this thread.

    Thanks,
    Paul

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Equinoxequinox - I was composing the above long post when you posted your question/suggestion WRT "harvesting every day": What you suggested is what I would do, but I wanted to quantify production in the context of expected consumption.

    Paul

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    With respect to "overwintering" as adults and not egg capsules, I read the following:

    "Low temperatures. Eisenia can survive in temperatures as low as 0oC, but they don’t reproduce at single-digit temperatures and they don’t consume as much food. It is generally considered necessary to keep the temperatures above 10oC (minimum) and preferably 15 oC for vermicomposting efficiency and above 15 oC (minimum) and preferably 20 oC for productive vermiculture operations.
    • Effects of freezing. Eisenia can survive having their bodies partially encased in frozen bedding and will only die when they are no longer able to consume food8. Moreover, tests at the Nova Scotia Agricultural College (NSAC) have confirmed that their cocoons survive extended periods of deep freezing and remain viable (GEORG, 2004)."

    In: Manual of On-Farm Vermicomposting and Vermiculture
    By Glenn Munroe
    Organic Agriculture Centre of Canada

    I may have to go look for some worm in the leaf litter.

    Paul

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "$1100" No, no, no. You missed an important point. "I may have to go look for some worm in the leaf litter." Now you are with the program. And you only need to find one cocoon with 14 babies to fulfill your needs. The idea is to purchase less than the final vermi count and let time work magic for you. Just don't ask about any worm calculators.

    Happy I know what Elodea and Vallisneria are. I love 10 cent feeder goldfish. They used to be free on Washington and Lincoln's birthdays at Woolworth's. Of course the bowl and food was $. The funny thing about feeder goldfish is you don't actually ever have to feed them or hardly give them water. They never die even when one really works at it. Edible is an added plus. Carp type might be my tilapia due to temperature. Should I be considering a "native North American mystery fish"? I have even looked at tiny bait fish since perhaps chickens could eat the protein.

    "zooplankton 'farm'" would be the foundation and component which balances an aqua system of growth with multiple food possiblilites for people or animals which transform waste into resources for multiple uses enriching the system they are in and strengthening it many ways. A mission statement for a "zooplankton 'farm'".

    Here's what to do. Spend $110 total on worms. Order from three separate places. Have the delivery date the same. Expect zero orders to actually arrive on that date. Have the post office weigh each total box. Even if the order was not delivered to the post office they may do this for you. Smile. Or pretend you are sending. Open the box and smile when you ask the post office lady to weigh the bag o'worms. Report on the result. Weigh the actual weight of worms. Expect something less than ordered due to dehydration. Results like this will help fellow Alaska residents to know what to expect quality wise when ordering worms. Check out nearby Canada worm distributors also. Once you have worms make them available to nearby residents. Somebody's got to. Even just word of mouth to friends, friends. Only one out of 1,000 will even be interested.

    Put up wanted posters. Wanted: Volunteers to raise baby wigglers. Put a nice large picture of a cocoon with the babies hatching. This is for scientific experimentation purposes. They would be part of a specially selected test group of volunteers raising babies. Baby scientific name here. Can they provide a warm, loving, caring environment and kitchen scraps to a hundred babies? Have tear off numbers at the bottom. 4 people will call and one will take you up on the offer. Meet at a coffee house to make the exchange. Have them prepare the "worm home in advance". Do not provide. This will endear them to the worms. Give them 100 worms. But actually give them 250. Ask that they count the worms, babies and cocoons in 6 months. The value of this is you will have somebody else to chat worms with in your immediate area. They will soon know 2 more people who also want to join and get free worms. If they have children give them a goldfish each. This may take some telephone screening time.

    "DO NOT TURN THE GOLDFISH LOOSE WHEN YOU ARE FINISHED WITH THEM! Give them away, or flush them down the toilet or, if you want to "euthanize" them as humanely as possible, put them in water in a ziplock bag and put them in the freezer. They will go to "sleep" and freeze. Or you could actually eat them yourself." Do not flush. They may carry disease which may hurt native fish. Alternate euthanize methods are put in seltzer water water or quickly cut in half with scissors. Better to give away.

    Enjoyed the weather chat. I think you may enjoy just as much as the SIPS and the auxiliary generator one or more of the following:

    Usually I suggest BSFL Black Solider Fly Larvae but I do not think the environment allows that there. But we are working on it. Read about how they handle prurient waste. Way cool. I bet you will want some.

    EM effective microorganisms not quite sure how they would work up there. But also way cool.

    Sauerkraut or vegetable fermentation. I know how you hate when I say way cool.

    Gorilla gardening or Gorilla knitting. Alternate Guerilla gardening or Guerilla knitting. Also check out seed balls in case you thing somewhere needs plants.

    How do you all get your vitamin D?


    This post was edited by equinoxequinox on Thu, Mar 20, 14 at 0:52

  • mendopete
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The manual of on-farm vermicomposting Is a good read and great reference.

    You don't have to stock that heavy, and I was referring only to the outdoor system. I do not raise worms inside, but 1/2 lb or less (small handful) in each bin will get them started. You have plenty of time with the heated shop. I was thinking about outdoors with your short season. You may want to get em' a little denser. If they have too much room to roam, you may not achieve the goal of maximum cocoon propagation in a short period.

    I know I mentioned 5 lbs in a 4'x8' early on. I still believe you can do it, but you need to gain invaluable experience first. Your second season , worms should be plentiful and you will be seasoned.

    .Focus on learning and expanding your populations the first year. Start various systems. Experiment with food stocks and how they add heat. A compost thermometer should be on your toolbox. Observe often and make a few notes. Find out what works well for you, in your area and climate, with your feed stocks. You will know what to do next year.

    Your raised beds should be fine. Maybe section off part of the bed to accommodate the amount of worm $ you want to spend.

    I have some milk crates in my mother bin. When it is time to harvest, I pull them out, remove the worm culture on top, and use the rest. I hate digging out dense heavy casts.

    Feeding your fish will not affect your systems, once they are established. 2 yards of castings per year is quite a lot! You would need lots of worms to accomplish that I had approx.250- 300lbs of wigglers working to produce about that.
    That being said, in a couple years you may accomplish that. I started with about a lb...........................................

    A neighbor bought 50 lbs of worms from a couple different sources about 3 years back. . He was most pleased with both price and product of sierrawormsolutions. They provided a nice tour when he picked them up. They have some free outdoor bin how-to's. Reno is high desert which is hot and dry in the summer and cold in the winter. I love their long cinder-block windrow systems!

    Good luck and go get 'em.

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Little known fact: The Thinker was sitting on a 5 gallon bucket looking at his vermicomposting system thinking about how he could do things better. He had a masters degree in engineering yet these worms and their behavior were confounding his every design. Sometimes I sit and think about my worms and sometimes I just sit and think... about my worms.. What is going on in that little world that I am in charge of?!? Maybe I'm not in charge.

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think I have 'the drift' of things sufficient to get started.

    equinoxequinox - (Happy equinox), since you do not live in Alaska, and based on your posts I doubt you live in Hawaii, you DO have Centrarchids ("sunfish" - a native NA fish) in your state. They are VERY interesting fish. Very easy to maintain - almost as difficult to kill as goldfish. Very easy to come by with a hook, a line, and A WORM! Bluegills and other "bream" don't get large enough to be a problem in 20gal and larger tanks. They get along well enough with most other fish that don't try to eat them. If you want to 'get into it' add some crayfish (big enough that the 'bream' don't eat them) and bullheads. They eat whatever the sunfish leave behind.

    "Once in a former lifetime" (Dylan), I was actually part of a study on annual vitamin D levels in different Alaskan ethnic groups. As you might expect, annual blood serum vitamin D levels follow a sine wave identical to annual solar radiation. Contrary to what nutritional "experts" say, "you" won't die, and in fact nothing terrible will happen to "you" if "you" go without vitamin D for a few months each year.

    While I am a patient person, there are some fundamental biological principals that I do not intend to try to 'tough out'. One is that certain species need a certain density to do more than simply "reproduce". A classic example is the anchovy (Engraulis sp.). Unconstrained commercial exploitation in the 40's and 50's lead to the commercial extinction of anchovies off the central coast of California. While the species (and population) was not biologically extinct, even severe reductions in commercial exploitation (complete stoppage) did not cause the anchovies to "come back". This baffled fisheries scientists for decades. Finally they realized that being broadcast spawners, there needed to be sufficient numbers of anchovies at breeding time to actually effect an "successful" reproduction.

    While E.fetida are not "broadcast spawners", from what I read, there needs to be - among other things like abundant food - "lots" of them to effect exponential (sometimes called "organic") growth. What I 'see' is that DENSITY is the issue, not absolute numbers. For example:

    "You may want to get em' a little denser. If they have too much room to roam, you may not achieve the goal of maximum cocoon propagation in a short period."

    Therefore, the way to maximize production from a "reasonable" number of 'start up' worms is to start "small" in bin size. That way density is "up" even if total numbers are not large ($$). And I appreciate the concept of starting 'small' so that initial failures are not catastrophic. Small bin size coupled with "good" initial numbers of worms equals "high" density. I am hoping that high density and "lots" of "good" food will maximize (whatever that may turn out to me) production.

    "2 yards of castings per year is quite a lot! You would need lots of worms to accomplish that I had approx.250- 300lbs of wigglers working to produce about that.
    That being said, in a couple years you may accomplish that. I started with about a lb..........................................."

    YEEHAA! Or "way cool". (I use "way cool" myself quite often.)

    A plan is coalescing from the mist. I will let "you" know what the fruit of that plan is as soon as I have something physical to report.

    Thanks for the info and encouragement.
    Paul

  • pskvorc
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There is a vermicomposting seminar at a local site two weeks from today.

    Funny how that works out...

    Paul

  • carmellia
    8 years ago

    You are going into a much larger production mode than I have, so I am not sure how many worms you are going to need. I can tell you that happy worms reproduce quickly. Eisen Foetids (red wigglers in bait store) are what I use. I bought one small container of two dozen worms, and by the end of the summer, I was begging people to get their fishing worms from me. Getting your worms through the mail has its hazards. Temperature (both hot and cold) can kill the worms before they ever get to you. Getting the soil (castings) is a time consuming, messy job. I use the worm tea diluted with water to give my plants all the fertilizer they need. As a soil amendment to be used for humus, you definitely need a very large operation. Removing worms from the soil is no easy task. The kind of worms you need will not live through an Alaska winter outdoors.

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