I think it's a marketing/perception issue with flow-through systems. When you read about them, they sound messy since things move down. A stacking system sounds "neat" because worms move up.

I think for a home-sized flow-through system marketed to NEW vermicomposters to succeed, it would have to have an appearance that made it look like it was clean and neat. It would also have to hit a $99-149 price point.

To get people to upgrade from a stacking system and buy vs. building their own, I think it would have to have a high functioning and durable cranking system that disturbs the bottom layer to let it drop into a removable drawer or tray that can be used to collect the compost and then be transported to the garden, etc. This market would probably support a higher price point if it brought a harvest mechanism to the table that would be very difficult to duplicate as a DIY project.

Comments:

Having worked with a home-made stacking system, I can tell you that stacking systems are messy. My flow-through is not old enough for me to know how the messy factor compares.

I am trying to see if I can get the price under $100 USD. Quite a bit under, since shipping charges on the thing would be outrageous.

Highly functional--I expect that, though I haven't done my first harvest yet. Durable--that is my big question. I won't know that without a prototype.

Removable drawer--The Eliminator had one. That adds to the materials and labor to build the thing. A drawer requires the composting chamber to be constricted at the bottom so that all of the VC lands in the drawer, since the drawer must be smaller than the composting chamber in order to fit into the unit.

Difficult to duplicate--well, I made mine pretty easily. What I would be shooting for is durability that cannot be duplicated by DIYers easily. Half of the anticipated cost of a prototype is to purchase tools that most people don't have at home.

Stacking systems seem to sell well in spite of the fact that it is very easy to drill holes in the bottom of a couple of Rubbermaid totes, and it costs a lot less.

I agree with everything you are saying. Stacking systems can sure be messy. But when you are a newbie and are shopping, they LOOK cleaner.

I have difficulty imagining any newbie buying a Worm Inn. It looks like a disaster waiting to happen. It probably works great, but it looks terrifying.

If you harvesting system really is ingenious, your other option is to sell the plans. I think you'd probably want to hire a very competent draftsman -- hard to follow plans are always a turn-off.

Would this put vermiculture in every household?
What would make this unique enough that existing wormers would want it?
Is your harvesting mechanism adaptable to existing bins?

> Would this put vermiculture in every household?

No. No bin has yet.

> What would make this unique enough that existing wormers would want it?

It is hard to say.

> Is your harvesting mechanism adaptable to existing bins?

Not really. It needs to fit the bin. People who are handy enough would see it and make their own, just like someone who sews can make their Worm Inn, or someone who is handy with wood can make their own bin based on the OSCR, or someone with a drill (or a screwdriver and a flame in my case) can make their own stacking systems out of Rubbermaid totes.

One of the big problems I see with flow thru system (other than cost) is that the vc can 'hang up' too easy.

I have a similar problem with a regular compost bin that I bought that has a door in the front and the side, and it amazes me that when I try to shovel finished compost, how little I really get out of it before I have a cavity. The compost tends to hold it's shape instead of crumbling and dropping into place.

I'd thought to put a pair of grates forming a grid in the bottom of my worm bin that I could move counter to each other. (back and forth motion to break up the bottom layer),but figured it would be hard to engineer one that would be easy to turn and still hold up. At least I have not found any scrap material around that I could use to make the system with. I remember those old metal ice cube trays where you pull a lever and it moves blades to break the cubes apart.

But to answer your question, if you had the price low enough, I think you could probably market a system. Like Alabamanicole said it would have to look clean and neat.

I was just out in my garage doing some measurements and the sides of a milk would do what I described. I'd originally thought to space them apart using 2 or three straight pieces or plates screwed in loosely to allow a pivot. This would push the plates apart and then allow them to come back together as the grids moved counter to each other which would break up the lower levels of VC better. If the vc was too dense the pivots would break.

A roller arrangement would be a better option and not risk crushing worms in the process but tough/solid pieces of vc could knock the roller off track. Is this something similar to what you are testing?

pjames, you are thinking like I did for a while. I am thinking that the holes in a milk crate would be too small. The only thing I found that might work is the sides of a plastic shopping cart. Really.

As for specifics about the mechanism, I'm not disclosing details. If I decide that there is no way to market this, I may give a full description with photos so people can cobble their own together. But first, I want to make sure it works.

As for the VC hanging up, that is why I want to build the bin out of sturdy enough materials, that I can minimize the amount of framing that the bin needs. With less framing, there is less holding the VC up when you harvest. The one I built for myself is framed with 1/2 inch PVC pipe, which I expect to be a problem.

> If the vc was too dense the pivots would break.

That is a concern I have with my design. I am trying to keep the bedding moist enough to prevent the VC at the bottom from drying out. If the VC dries out, my mechanism will break.

sbryce, I think I have a fair idea of your arrangement. What are the width and length of your bin? That will make a big difference as far as torsion. If you'd like send me a private email (see my page) and I send you some of my ideas directly.

No X 3 = Three Strikes, youÂre out!
Stay a hobbyist. Just because you have a "great idea", does not mean it will be a great business.
I know a great plumber who started his own plumbing business. Within 9 months he had to go back to punching a clock. Cash flow killed his business. He could bid on a job, but not have resource (cash is a resource in business) to buy supplies and still make payroll, taxes, insurance, vehicle payments and maintenance, etc. Also, waiting for others to pay you makes you want to kill them (his words, not mine).

Well, steamy, I have already turned one hobby into a successful business, and am very glad that I have. Unfortunately, there are two attorneys who are advising myself and an estranged wife that the business is a marital asset, so I don't really get paid anymore.

I'd love to go back to the days when I am not forced by court order to have somebody else run my business and keep all the money for herself.

Not everybody who is good at their work is also good at business. I have gone that route too, and failed miserably.

As you wish.
And good luck to your efforts.

sbryce-

I think you're on the right path. There is plenty of opportunity for innovation in this area, and the fact that there isn't a vermicomposter in every house tells you the kind of growth you could expect.

Our country/world is also on the cusp of a green movement - and I hesitate to echo the media with the word 'movement' in that I don't believe it will be a phase, but rather a paradigm shift. A necessary one as certain non-sustainable resources begin to get threatened and we're forced in many ways to change our lifestyles.

Will your idea work? Who knows...It sounds like you have enough know-how to figure it out. Will it be profitable? Odds are probably low. Truth is, there is very little in this space that can't be easily mimicked. If you look at compost bins, a much easier biological function to master in my opinion, the innovation and advancements there have been marginal and probably produced very little in real profits.

To me the ultimate goal is not necessarily the monetary one, but the public service aspect. Vermicomposting is an amazing concept that could reduce tremendous waste in our landfills, while producing amazing vegetation as a byproduct. From an ecological advancement standpoint, your real profit is in advancing the "movement" - if cash comes in as a result because you're able to produce a great product at the right price, then bonus.

And for the record I'd be first in line to buy said system. I love my homemade flow through system but am very passionate about finding ways to make the process better. Kaizen!

Regards
Kevin

Kevin, thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, I see things differently.

The fact that there is not a composting bin in every house only means that there is not a composting bin in every house. It could be that all those people don't want one.

One trend I see in this upcoming movement is a mindset that believes that the people who produce this world's wealth are not entitled to compensation. I think like a businessman. If I am going to spend my time designing, testing, manufacturing and selling worm bins, then I expect to be able to pay the rent and put food on the table in return. If I am not able to do that, then all those people who don't have composting bins in their homes don't want them, or don't want the one I have to sell.

I'm no different than an employee who expects a paycheck in return for his 9:00 to 5:00 efforts, except that I prefer to be paid for my work, rather than my time.

The public service aspect is important to me. I don't want to spend my time and resources doing something that serves no purpose.

There is one thing we do agree on. There is very little in this space that can't be easily mimicked. But stacking tray systems sell, and they are easier to mimic than flow through systems.

I found a couple of plastic fabricators in my city. I think I need to pay a visit.

I would be very interested in such a bin and I know many of my composting students would be too.
Keep us posted.
liz

This is my second time advising on the same subject. The first was not you. After very cautiously, even glass less than half full, advising a guy who wanted to invest in his design in a tiny bit of a possitive answer I fear I was even then too positive. I do not know how it turned out. Maybe excellent. I do not know. What I would of told him if I could do it again was patenting something can take all of ones money. Money that one could take and go on multiple cruises and visit other countries with one's long time wife. Basically skip the worms enjoy your life with your wife. In your case you have more business accumen and experience and are more realistic of the risks. People who are sucessfull often preceed and follow sucess with horrible failures. Maybe that is called learning (the hard way?) But ending up learning more than others. And then sometimes recoup to much sucess. This is historically accurate. More so than those who simply do not ever attempt to risk disaster who never even taste sucess. And are content with everything remaining the same. The statistics are horribly against you. Did the guy who invented the Bridgeport make any money? Did the guy who invented the vernier calliper make any money? I forget. On the other hand you seem to of done your research. So I applaude. I bet you even know the thickness of the plastic you are after. So the product will not break in shipping. Did the inventer of the worm factory or the can of worms make money? Maybe they did not. Was making money their goal? Did they die poor and lonely? Or are they enjoying life and giving scholarships to poor but smart kids to college?

To or not to invest $$$ in a new worm bin design may not have much to do with worms or worm bin design. The decisions you need to make have more to do with things in life and more specifically things in your specific life and your goals as per people and what you want to spend time on not really even financial stuff.

An advantage you have is I bet your product will have something no other worm bin ever had which is solid factual based instructions. That is what seems lacking TOTALLY presently.

Your competitor will be the worm inn. Thier cost of materials to manufacture is I imagine very low and they can probably ummm kill you cost wise.

The other thing is anybody can take a few worms and toss them in a bucket. So you need to be way more shiny.

I have skipped over and not read your details about the harvesting mechanics. I am guessing they work excellently.

I have not bought a bin yet, making do with homemade contraptions, but maybe I would buy one of yours.

Even the bins presently on the market seem to now need major upgrades to their design.

Normally I'd charge big bucks for advising, but 'em's worms. And they need to take over the (composting) world.

Just a few comments.

I have been in business for myself and failed. I have been in business for myself and succeeded. That does not mean that I am qualified to know whether my design can be manufactured and sold as part of a successful business venture. I do know enough not to bet the farm on an idea. I will invest what I can afford to lose, and no more. Right now, that is nothing.

I am not talking about patenting anything. I doubt I could ever recover that cost of the patenting process. I have done an initial search, and I cannot find patents on ANY worm bin design.

As for how I spend my time, I can run a business, or I can spend the same time working for someone else. I know which one I prefer.

Solid factual instructions. I will have to remember to include that feature.

As for the Worm Inn, yes, that is the competition, and yes, they can probably kill me on cost. If that is the case, I don't manufacture and sell my bins unless there is some other compelling reason why people would want to buy mine rather than a Worm Inn.

I have not disclosed the details of the mechanics of my harvesting mechanism. Since I have yet to do my first harvest, I cannot tell you whether they work excellently. I am optimistic, unless the VC dries out around the harvester.

What major upgrades do the bins currently on the market need?

I tend to be harsh. Yet I intended my post to be supportive.

What major upgrades do the bins currently on the market need?
The $64 question... AIR MOvement. An element seriously lacking even when leaving open the drain. Which the 360 claims to address through a patent. Don't know how that works out. But they do seem to of identified the main issue. Just like the Worm Inn also addresses the main issue in a different way. The whole idea seems to be to get these guys the air movement... oxygen in carbon dioxide out they want and they will do the job needed. Deny them that and bad things happen.

All those who modify the current bins do so by adding air flow various ways.

I'm pretty sure we are on the same page and would like to see a nice worm bin available for nice composting people at a low cost.

As I have stated before, I have 3 COWS of three tiers each in operation. While I am reasonably satisfied with this arrangement and do not find it excessively messy it is not perfect. Here is what I think would make it better. In order to look at tray 2, I must lift tray 1 off and find a place to set it. If the trays slid in and out like dresser drawers it would be very convenient. I realize that this would require a larger heavier and therefore more expensive structure. I am not a handy person nor an entrepreneur. I spent my working life(37 years) as an employee of a large corporation. I wonder if you doers see any good in this idea, which I'm sure has been thought of and tried already.

Dave Nelson

In a stacking tray system, each tray has to be sitting on the bedding in the tray below it. If a tray is not making contact with the bedding in the lower tray, the worms cannot move up easily. This precludes allowing them to slide out like drawers.

What you describe is one of the things that make stacking tray systems messy. When you unstack them, you have to set the tray down somewhere, and that tray has VC all over the bottom of it. If they slid out like drawers, the VC would get scraped off and fall on the floor.

Are flow through systems any less messy? Mine is not old enough for me to know yet. With a flow through system, VC is continually falling out the bottom, but you know that ahead of time, and you plan for it. VC also has to be removed from the area below the composting chamber, which could get messy.

@sbryce: I don't know about other stacking worm bin (eg: worm factory, their new 360, etc), but the COW is not as you describe. The trays are not directly sitting on bedding of the tray below, there is small piece of plastic that support the tray above, otherwise it would really compact the tray below and worm would really not like that. And about "if the tray is not making contact with the bedding in the lower tray, the worms cannot move up easily". i do not really agree, even if there is 1 or 2 inches of space, worms are going there, maybe it will take 2-3 days more to move, but we don't really care, they should not move to a tray to another too often in a year, maybe 4 times in a year.

I agree that there are a many improvement to do about worm bin solution to make them more accepted in people houses:
1) 100% fly protection
2) easier to use (what Dave said is a good one)
3) lower price
4) optimize recycling level per area (i mean, recycle more with less space)
5) municipalities and government should give a compensation for people that buy a compoting solution (either for doing traditional composting or vermicomposting). They could also reduce the tax amount of those families has to pay since they would be reducing the amount of waste going to underground.

Personally, i think there space for others worm solutions, i don't say here if it should be either a stacked system, flow throuth system, or others, but for sure there is space for improvement. Good luck.

I looked up the instructions for the Can O Worms system. The instructions say that when you add a tray to the system, you must make sure that the top of the bedding in the lower tray comes in complete contact with the bottom of the tray you are adding.

Worms can't crawl through an air gap between trays, and there is no good reason for them to crawl up the sides of one tray and onto what is essentially the lid for that tray. Worms don't understand our stacking tray systems. They only know that there is more food above them.

It would still be possible with slide out trays to have the bottom of one tray in contact with the tray beneath it.It would just require a system of rollers which would allow the tray to drop when it was fully in. I have seen such cabinets but I can't recall where or what they were used for. This would of course increase the cost and weight some more and might just price themselves out of contention.

Dave Nelson

@sbryce: I agree with you, in their instruction manual they state that, but many things they are stating is actually wrong
1) that a COW can own about 15000 worms.
2) that it is fly proof.
3) the topic we are discussing.
4) etc.

In vermiculture, worms are able to cross many meters to get where the food is, if the condition to make the ride is good. Don't you think they will not be able to make couple of inches by passing by the side? Well in the practice I can tell you that my bedding never totally touch the tray below and worms where getting where the food is, in the tray above, again it's a question of how easy it is, and we could discuss many time on this, but i guess its really a delay of 2-4 days.

Dave..one of the problems of using a drawer on a roller system is VC getting behind the drawer or on the rollers. Thinking in terms of a drawer with too much junk in it and a little falls behind the drawer, preventing it from closing.

I was thinking along the sliding drawer/plate when I was thinking about a harvesting system in my earlier discussion with Sbryce. I'd also thought of the plate protruding out the back but that would require additional support because the sides would be weakened or the plate would not extend across the full bottom and that would defeat the purpose. I had sketched out a couple designs but each added a problem when it solved a previous one. Guess that's why it's referred to as 'development'.

James
Yes, I can see the draw backs. It just gets more and more complicated when what is needed is simplicity and low cost. I think my COW farm suits the bill fairly well.

Dave Nelson

I agree with the move the top worm tray off and where are you going to put it? And moving trays is not what I want to do when I am 80. I want a system I can do when I am 80. To avoid lifting all the trays drawers sound good but worms like to hang out of the bottom of the holes. They love to. Sliding a drawer would ummmm be unpleasant for them. We are sort of left with flow through. Worm Inn has the advantage of wiggly sides to move the vermicompost along. :-) Who Would of Thought the Popular hobby of Vermicomposting seems to be Wicked at both Defy Gravity and turning to cement Something Bad. To build a harvesting mechanism robust enough to comfront the compost yet light and inexpensive is the ticket. Seeing as how that compost will not fall out on it's own I am using a tri fork hand tool.

How far apart do the bars on a flow through need to be? I have no bottom on a 4 gallon bucket and still the stuff gets stuck. I do not chop, nuke or freeze so their results may be different.

A vermicomposter in every home?!?!?! I remember long ago I wanted to buy a computer. I was not quite sure why. Maybe to write letters or add stuff nice. They guy at the computer store WOULD NOT TALK TO ME because I did not have a business. Why would I want a computer if I did not have a business he asked. Well I just want one to do stuff was not good enough. He was totally confused why I wanted to buy one.

I have a spare empty COW tray and I use that as my put down place when I want to check the lower levels.

randomz, that would be the best way. No squished worms that way. I would want a COW or a worm factory that had like eleventy ninedty trays. When they sell with just three trays I'm like huh? That is good for today but what do I do with tomorrows kitchen waste. I'm not quite sure how you have a spare empty COW so I am guessing you have a zillion cows and canabalized the trays of one to add to the trays of the others and thus have this spare empty COW to rest trays on. Like I feel how high is my ceiling? I'm ok with a bank shot of my kitchen waste into the top tray of the bin from the fowl line.

Equinox
Relax, I'm 83 and I have no trouble lifting full COW trays. Here is how I am going to solve the problem. I have three 3 tray COWs in operation. I am going to buy a fourth so I will have an extra base to use for temporary placement. Then I will have 3 extra trays which I can use as needed. I don't think it is a good idea to put more than 4 trays on one base. The base is not strong enough.

Dave Nelson

My COW trays get stuck together something awful and I find them a royal pain to get apart. I end up trying to wedge the bottom between my knees while I lift off the tray and wiggle the top up and down... yeah, I don't see me being able to do the COW dance at 80 either. :)

At the moment, I have taken the legs off and have it set on a heavy duty plastic shelving unit with the spigot hanging off the front. The shelving is a grid, so there is airflow from below. I could see maybe 5 layers with the legs taken off, but I agree with Dave -- you don't want to stack these too high.

The worms that are hanging down usually retract pretty fast if I have the lights on, but I turn the lid upside down and use that to set trays on. There's enough room not to squish the worms.

Yes, the COW trays do have a tendency to stick. Try this. Put the heel of your right hand firmly on the handle of the lower tray. Reach over with your left hand and pull up on the upper tray. It will quite easily move to a slightly cocked position and then you can lift it off with no problem. Modify the procedure to fit your own handidness, but it works for me.

I just ordered my fourth COW unit.

Dave Nelson

Guys, I have 2 COWs so I just make a point of keeping one tray empty for this reason, plus I can use it to start a new tray then harvest a full one to be the new spare.

Reln (COW manufacturer) now sell the COW with only 2 trays, but you can buy spare trays. What a rip off!

Thanks for the tip Dave, but with mine getting it cock-eyed makes it stuck even more. When I have someone around to hold the base, it lifts straight up pretty easily.

kinda off the subject

I respectifully disagree. One of the main reasons people would want to buy (and thus is a market for) a well desinged household flow through worm bin is to be saved the problem of those stacking systems that don't unstack. Maybe a main marketing tool. That is why I want one.

As you wish.

Further off topic for advertising I would also estimate how long the limited life expectancy of a cloth worm bin will last compared to your sturdy system. 3 years vs 30 years?

Horribly off topic. Do you really believe the breathable cloth material does what it says it does? It is used in high end sports clothes. They advertize it is rain proof yet lets persperation vent. ??? All the labels say this. All the salesmen say this. Everybody belives this. Apparently the material does this. I must be from Missouri because I just don't believe it. Yet the worms seem to. It seems like a great system yet it does not meet my needs of build it and forget it (except for harvesting great vermicastings) for 100 years. I love the worm inn idea, it is genius. I want a flow through system not of cloth, but still of genius. So another worm bin is of interest.

Until then I will putter around with my various buckets and pails. And have a great time doing so. Maybe I don't want a new well working system. That would take all my fun away.

I believe the worm inn is made from nylon cordura, which should last a long time, as long as it is kept out of the sun. It is not made out of that supposedly breathable fabric that is used on high end sporting clothes. That would be a waste of money. Heck, making jackets out of that stuff is a waste of money.

Go for it! I may buy one. I hope you make a buck. Good luck!
Pete