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three_blind_lice

Worm Trouble

three_blind_lice
13 years ago

I've been owning a COW since spring, and I have to say, by now, I am as pissed as hell. I got it initially because I was intrigued by the idea of turning garbage into something valuable, and having the whole process done for me in a low-key, ecological kind of way, without too much hassle on my end.

Truth is, NOTHING has worked so far. During the past months, I've had infestations of moskitoes, ants, and now flies (TONS of them). Just today, I've checked and, woops, alle the worms are gone. Getting new worms will cost me like 30 Euros (which is a joke in my eyes) - but actually I don't exactly feel like coughing up the dough, as long as I don't know what happened to the old ones.

I supect that there must be some trade secret with this thing, a secret which nobody shares, because everyone does it automatically (except for me, of course). Like... rain protection. Maybe most people have their COWs under a roof, and don't even know it's a necessity. (Over here, there's been a lot of rain this season, and the contents of my COW is typically soaked.) Or... Knowing when to put on the next tray for the worms. Initially I thought you do it when the first tray is full, but then I've read somewhere that the contents of the first tray will settle, and then the worms can't reach the second tray. So, what do you do to solve the issue - keep feeding both trays for a while? I have no clue!

I've also heard that the moisture mat will keep out the flies. Since I didn't have one, I used an old T-Shirt, but that's only made things worse. Seems like, when you already have flies, giving them a cosy environment under a wet T-shirt will only make them happier than ever!

Honestly, I don't know why I should keep throwing money at this thing, just that it will *maybe* give me a bit of earth - one day. At this point, I am very close to taking this whole damn thing, and tossing it into the garbage, just the way it is.

Sorry for the rant, but if nothing else, being able to vent at least helps me ease some of my frustration.

Comments (16)

  • happyhoosierworms
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ok DEEP breath. It's not always easy to get your bin going. And you're right, the conditions do matter. Tell us more about where your bin is. Sounds like it's outside without shelter from rain. But is it on a patio, or the grass, dirt, where? Does it get sunshine? Also, what do your feed them? And what do you use for bedding? We have to know more about what's in the bin too to suggest solutions to the problems. And are you in a climate that is mild or will winter be coming your way?

    I just went through three months of gnat and mite battle and my worm population significantly decreased. But I'm back to feeding them and I'm hoping they'll perk up and start multiplying again. It will take some time, but they'll get back there. I've learned a lot about the bin though and what I have to do to keep the gnats and mites out. But I too almost threw the whole thing out to start over.

  • plumiebear
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's good to rant once in a while...get it off your chest. More info will help, but meanwhile be sure NOT to throw out the bin material. Even if the worms are gone, there are almost certainly cocoons in there. I agree that you shouldn't buy more worms until you figure out what went wrong. Aside from the questions already asked, what type of worms (E. fetida, E. hortensis, etc.) did you buy and how many or what weight?

    Andrew

  • sbryce_gw
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We already have our first, and possibly most important, clue about what went wrong. If the bin is so wet that it is breeding mosquitoes, then it is far too wet. The worms drowned. And if the flies are house flies, then the whole mess has gone anaerobic.

    The bin needs to be moved under cover and allowed to dry out until it is about a damp as a wrung out sponge.

    Odds are, there are other problems as well, but this is the probably the biggest one.

  • steamyb
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    IMO- not worm trouble but system trouble. Folks buy this vermi-junk and the lack of instructions almost guarantees failure. I really wish folks would realize that nature cannot be controlled, contained or conquered. Worms have been here a long time; we just need to learn why. IMO

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd venture to say your frustration is justified. The most important parts of the system can't be bought. They are knowledge and observation. The part they try to sell, the bin and the worms are maybe the least important part. Maybe the trick is to get a sytem going without even any worms first. Any old container will do. Any little bit of composting worms will do. Not that $200 bin and $30's worth of worms are evil... or maybe they are. Maybe vermicomposting is one of those things money can't buy.

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If there is a "trade secret with this thing, a secret which nobody shares" it would be to add cardboard or bedding. Also to add food inside of paper bags or wrapped in newspaper. No see um netting might help with the mosquitos and flys.

    "Knowing when to put on the next tray for the worms. Initially I thought you do it when the first tray is full, but then I've read somewhere that the contents of the first tray will settle, and then the worms can't reach the second tray. So, what do you do to solve the issue - keep feeding both trays for a while? I have no clue!" This would be a great question for the person who sold you this item. My guess is they have no clue either. Do sellers and writers of instructions even know which end of a worm is which?

    The responsibility would seem to be on the purchaseers of livestock to see to their good care. I read the entire history on three vermicomposting boards before I harvest a few worms from my compost bin and put them in a free container. It took hours, days, weeks to read the information. My first 12 worms or so died. So I read even more and post questions. Then I had half an egg shells worth of worms and a few of them died. Even now some crawl and die and I wish I had chickens to eat those ones. It has been a couple of years and I think I am finally getting the hang of it.

    One poster sells not a bin and worms but a biosystem with worms in. Maybe this is the way new vermicomposters should start.

    Also apparently every system brought to experienced vermicomposters from those who have tried it and had issues had not enough bedding.

  • curt_grow
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I find the rant to be maybe a normal thing. The raising of worms is not hard. The raising of worms while feeding them kitchen scrapes was hard for me.
    they never seem to handle the load that every one else says they can. They eat a lot, just not as advertised. so try less food, maybe a little dryer bedding. They will not dry and die very easy, as a matter of fact they will ball up if it gets dry or cold as a survival instinct. I have dug up these balls in very dry middle of summer droughts when the soil was powder dry.While looking for fishing worms. That of course does not mean that the bedding should be power dry.

  • three_blind_lice
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First of all, thanks for all the replies. :=)

    The COW sits on a north terrace against a wall, so it basically doesn't get any sun. I feed what I get from the kitchen scraps (like melon peels or banana skins, scraps from onions, plums, apples, salad, etc.) plus the leaves and weeds that accumulate on the terrace.

    I live in Central Europe, so yes, winter will be coming. (Speaking of which: I do have an unheated basement which seems perfect if it gets too cold outside, but I don't want to introduce flies and vermin to the room. Any advice - e.g. "stop adding to the bin starting November" - to keep that from happening?)

    The worms I had I got from a live garden compost heap. I'm fairly sure that, at least as far as the worms are concerned, things went well in the beginning, because the tap water from underneath always contained a couple of living baby worms that fell down from above.

    As for the moskitos, I am assuming that the water from underneath probably hit the bottom of the first tray at some point. In the meantime I know that it's actually best to either keep the tap open, or to at least empty the sink frequently. (Reason I made that mistake is simple - when there's so much rain that the bottom sink fills up, there's obviously no need for me to use that water for manual irrigation. ;)

    Current conditions: I've noticed that the soil at the bottom of the sink seems very compact, almost like clay. This could be due to water hitting that area (months ago!), or also maybe because of the ants I had, who tend to break up soil into tiny bits. When I take soil from the bottom into my hands, I can squeeze a couple of drops out of it, so it's fairly wet, but I wouldn't call it completely soaked.

    What would worm cocoons look like? Can I see them, or are they too small? I would expect them to hatch if conditions are fine, so if they don't hatch, can I conclude that I still need to change the conditions for that to happen?

    I've heard about the paper and cardboard thing, so in the meantime, I'm adding that as well. Just not sure about the effect, because sometimes I wonder if the paper doesn't actually *store* water and therefore contributes to keeping the whole system wet, rather than dry.

    Moving the COW under cover is something I've thought about as well - I just wouldn't know where or how. So up to now, keeping the bottom pan empty, adding paper and putting the T-shirt on top are the most important changes I made over time. Problem is, I don't know if the changes aren't enough, or if they just came too late. If I knew for certain that there's simply too much water coming in from the top, I'd probably buy a small plastic table and move the bin underneath.

    The bulk of flies is really just fruit flies - many thousands of them. Other sorts of flies as well, but not the fat ones. ;)

    Seems to me like I don't only need to learn about what worms like, but also about what flies, moskitos and ants like (in order to NOT give it to them). For example, I'm assuming that my scraps may already be catching a couple of fruit flies in the kitchen, and then, when I add those scraps to the bin, I'm increasing the fruit fly population. So maybe I need to keep my scraps more or less sterile, in an airtight container, before they go into the bin.

    What exactly do you guys mean by "bedding"? I thought that's what you start out with, but which the worms munch up in a couple of weeks/months?

    Thanks again!

  • eaglesgarden
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bedding would be shredded cardboard or newspaper that the worms live in. I am very new to this, but my understanding is that you need to have a LOT more bedding than food scraps. The bedding is a food source as well as the food scraps, so you might want to limit the food you are adding.

    Are you burying the food in bedding when you add it? That should help with the fruit fly population as well.

    You can always add more bedding dry if conditions are too wet. The dry bedding will soak up the excess moisture in the bin. This will also help to add some microbes to the new bedding right away, as well.

    Cocoons are small, but you can see them. I recently found some in my bin. Quite a surprise actually.

  • eaglesgarden
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Trying to post the pic again...

  • eaglesgarden
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh forget it!

    Here's the link:

    Here is a link that might be useful: picture of worm cocoon.

  • happyhoosierworms
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh my stars, yes, your bin is far too wet for the wormies and has become a playground for all those critters you don't want. As the temperatures cool down a little into fall the bugs should start to go away on their own and it will be safer to move it to the basement. You can't leave them outside, the worms won't survive.
    I actually have my bin in the kitchen if that's an option for you. I live in a four season climaate as well. Once you get the bugs are under control it shouldn't be a problem having it in there. The gnat problem I had was truly epic (I'm talking millions) but they never swarmed and never invaded anything other than the bin and seemed to flock to the sliding glass door where the light is. I managed to finally get rid of them with a flying pest strip that I sat on top of the bin and I quit feeding for a little more than a month. It took three weeks to kill them all, and I had to sweep the kitchen floor two and three times a day, but they're gone now and I won't let the bin get that moist again. The worms like it much better, but I can't stand the gnats. I have always buried the food scraps very well but that didn't seem to matter.
    The conditions of the bedding and castings should really be on the light and fluffy side. They will be a little moist, but too moist will attract unwanteds.
    If you find you have ants place cinnamon around the legs of your bin. I have found ants don''t like it and won't cross it. As long as they can't climb up any other way, that should keep them out.
    I don't have much newspaper in my life so I have started stuffing food scraps into toilet paper rolls and burying that. The worms seem to think that's the best thing ever! Worm style canolli I suppose.
    As for the unheated basement, I think most people will say it can't get too cold down there. I forget what the lowest temps are that some have managed with, but others might respond with suggestions on how to insulate the bin.
    Don't give up just yet. It'll all come 'round.

  • plumiebear
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Definitely leave the tap open. I'd suggest putting dry bedding (torn egg cartons, cardboard, etc.) that can absorb some of the moisture and give something for the worms to munch on if they wander down. The paper products do retain water, but the worms need the moisture. You just want to avoid standing water.
    Â You need to shield the bin from rain.
    Â Cocoons might be tough to see if covered with silty material. I'd assume you have them in there.
    Â Fruit fly eggs are often in the veggie scraps & fruit peel, so they hatch from inside the bin. Unless you want to freeze or microwave your food scraps first, the best way to minimize (you'll never get rid of all of them) fruit flies is to smother them. A few sheets of newspaper quickly mats into a re-usable covering for each feeding. Cover that with dry shredded newspaper or leaves. Then cover those with the t-shirt. Finally cover the entire COW with a gauzy cloth like this:
    http://vermicomposters.ning.com/photo/2094123:Photo:100?context=user
    Â Bedding is any of the "brown", carbon-based material. My favorites in order of preference: old leaves, egg cartons, cardboard, newspaper. Just add them dry on top and they will gradually soak up moisture. Eventually they're wet enough the worms start to see them as food. Don't mix bedding in with your food, just pile bedding on top. You can see my worms ingesting egg carton bits here around the :35 mark:
    http://vermicomposters.ning.com/video/worms-at-the-trough

    Andrew

  • Shaul
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A number of things:

    1. In my first bin, there was a time when it seemed that all my worms had disappeared. I put on my rubber gloves and went through the whole thing and there at the bottom (in the wettest part) they were all alive and well. So never assume that just because you can't see them, that they're all dead.
    2. You can keep your bin outside through the winter as long as you provide heat and insulation. I had excellent results last winter by covering the bin with several layers of material and a heavy plastic sheet (to keep off the rain and snow), and by providing bottom heat (underneath the bin) with rope lights and a dimmer switch.
    3. The concept that cardboard bedding needs to be as wet as 'a wrung-out sponge' is a myth. EF's (red wigglers) can live in up to 90% moisture. My bins are invariably 'very wet' and I've never had anything but success with it. (Now I'm not looking to restart the whole wet/dry bin controversy. Naturally each person will have the system he/she swears by and what works for them; just don't be scared off if your bin is on the wetter side).
    4. I bury the food underneath the bedding (because it keeps down the rotting-food smell, not because it keeps the flies away). I can bury the food under a foot of wet shredded cardboard and the flies will march right through it to get to the food. I've tried the wet cotton T shirt, etc. The only thing that works for me is strips of yellow, sticky fly paper, hung over the worm bins. They catch everything (flies, gnats, even an occasional bee and butterfly).
    5. In general, I grind up all the fruit/vegetable scraps in my food processor before putting it into the bin. They can also be frozen (which will kill fly eggs). The freezing/defrosting process helps break down cell structure, enabling the worms to access the food easier.
      This summer i tried something different. I bought a large watermelon, cut it in half, and scooped out the insides (and ate it). Then I took the two empty shells and filled them with what I would normally feed the worms (banana peels, melon rinds, other fruit & veg. waste). I then buried the two halves in the bin. That was at the beginning of August. Today I went in and had a good look. The bin is quite filled with castings, the food is almost all gone, and there are 'a lot' of happy worms (and lots of cocoons). I chalk that up as a success.

    Shaul

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Where is the cover to your cow. Cows have covers. Is there a tray with no holes that should be flipped over the top? Down celar might be a good idea. Mostly so you don't have to go outside in a blizzard clear off the sink scraps. If moving the bin it is a great time to empty one tray at a time into a bucket and reset up each tray in the celar. I do not know why the instructions on tray systems don't say to flip one tray over into another one to maintain the correct level. The spare trays can hold prepared cardboard so you will always have some handy.

  • pjames
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Shaul, I did not realize it snowed in Jerusalem. I knew it was up in the hills but figured it was too far south for snow.

    That aside I agree that most worms prefer or at least do better if their environment is far wetter than the old "conventional" wisdom. You do have to put up with more mites, springtails and other composting critters but that is all part of the composting process.

    I tend to think of bedding as FOOD. I use cardboard and paper either in small pieces or shredded depending on the day and what my mood is. Once it begins to break down, the worms utilize it.

    Of late I have begun to use pre-composted material (from a fairly well sealed tumbler) plus wet cardboard to refill my bins. I personally subscribe to the idea that a bin should be almost full most of the time. I think it maintains overall stability plus allows the worms alot of different sub-environments to chose from.