I fail to understand your desire to create such an environment in your bin, and wonder where you got all those cocoons, unless, of course, you're sense of humor is responsible, in which case congratulations. On the other hand, if you're a little squeamish with full grown vermi, then I wonder even more where you got all those cocoons.

At any rate, plowing new ground here, my answers:

At random like the biologic parent-worms do would be my guess. I would think the bedding would need to have the same amount of moisture as a fully populated bin with normal societal populations.

My questions:

Is this kinda like some sort of IVF run amok or a government funded cloning experiment gone south? If you just don't like big worms, what will you do about the second generation, which will be there before you know it? And how does this maximize the success of a vermi-COMPOSTING endeavor?

Chuckiebtoo

Chuckiebtoo,

No, I was not joking with my question(s) or trying to be funny, but I can see how it may seem a bit odd. I definately do not have a problem with adult worms lol. I have been raising worms for a number of years and have too many cocoons to even think about, not too mention adult worms. However, in all the time I have been raising composting worms, I have always just split my bins when the biomass gets large enough. I have never just used cocoons alone in a bin before and have heard of other farmers creating what they refer to as "incubation bins" in which they stock only cocoons that they accumulate from previous harvestings. Supposedly they are able raise hatchlings until they get a few weeks old then they tranfer them to their own larger production bins. My worm cocoons get seperated out during harvest and I would like to make use of them rather than to throw them in with bins that already house adults. By raising all hatchings in the same bin, there would be less competetion for food as there is when adults are in the mix. I could also control my worm populations better. I thought maybe someone here could answer my questions regarding incubation bins as I have never used one before like others have, so i was just wondering the best and most optimal way to stock the cocoons in the bins. I am considering creating a incubation bin but I am sort of foggy about the proper techniques. Thanks for any and all input.

Hi hatchling,

I started a bin from cocoons only because my 1st worm generation was dying and I didn't know why. I did mix the cocoons through out the bedding. The moisture content was that of the adult worm. I don't know if it is the best way of doing it but that's what I did.

I believe the temperature at which the bin is kept at makes a difference. According to a study made in India. EH shows a incubation period shorter when the bin is kept at 59 degrees F rather than 77 degrees F. The number of hatchlings/cocoon were also higher.

I read somewhere else that EF will hatch in 10-15 days if the bin is at 85 degrees F. I didn't experiment with that. Maybe Kelly can comment on that.

Hope this help, Sylvie

Hi Sylvie,

Thanks for the reply... For some reason (which I can't understand the logic) I have read where some people have used peat moss as the bedding for their incubation bins. I don't know why this would be. Lots of farms are selling and shipping worm cocoons, so that folks can start raising worms from cocoons. So, there must be lots of folks that are starting with only cocoons. Like I say, I have never done this before but am curious and would like to try. I have always just transered some of the castings (including cocoons) to other bins when harvesting along with adult worms but never just cocoons by themselves. I am not really worried about it because I have lots of worms (hundreds of pounds) but it is something I would like to try and to also learn more about. Yes, I also wished Kelly would comment as I have learned much from her through the course of time on various other forums. Thanks...

Darryl

This is more complicated issue than it might seem at first glance, and, if you don't mind an editorial comment, indicative of overthinking the process and not recognizing that one will, essentially, never have an environment of worms that are all the exact same age (please know that this is a general comment and not meant as criticism of anyone considering experimenting with this idea!). The idea of incubation bins has long been discussed by worm GROWERS (not home vericomposters), but none have ever shown any verifiable evidence that they actually increase the rate of worm production. Incubation systems do, however, have an excellent chance of increasing the workload of the worm farmer without and demonstrable benefit. Incubation sysems are not generally believed to be beneficial when talking about earthworms.

Here are some of the reasons for questioning the sense of establishing incubation systems:

~ cocoons may incubate more quickly at higher temperatures, but the number of hatchlings per cocoon often decreases (depending, of course, on the species being discussed)at the upper end of the range. This means that total net population increase rates are often REDUCED by keeping cocoons in warmer bins (this is especially true of Eisenia hortensis and other European species adapted to cooler soils).

~ under ideal conditions cocoons of most earthworm species still have a wide range of incubation periods. For instance, Eisenia fetida cocoons have an incubation time, under ideal conditions, of 32 to 75 days. This means that among cocoons dropped by different adult worms in the same ideal environment at the same moment, some will hatch in 32 days, and some will take as long as 75. Considering that, under ideal range of conditions, newly emerged worms will reach sexual maturity in roughly 50 to 75 days, this means that in a cocoon incubation bin some worms will have achieved sexual maturity while others are just emerging from their cocoons. In light of these facts, for which developmental stage would you keep such a bin, considering that you cannot effectively segregate worms on that basis?

~ Though most of the worm species used in vermicomposting systems tolerate handling very well, there is considerable difference between tolerating and enjoying. Harvesting worms usually results in a temporary decrease in activity rate and an increase in mortality, even if only slightly. As such, working hard to raise worms in an incubation bin under the premise that they will grow faster, then subjecting them to harvsting, an activity that decreases their activity and potentially increases mortality, to place them in a "growing" bin seems somewhat pointless.

The most efficient worm systems are those that duplicate the natural environment preferred by the species being raised. Nature does not segrate worms by developmental stages, rather, she grows them within a range of envionrmental conditions that ensures somewhat ubiquitous activity. While experimentation can be fun, it is important to recognize when experimentation is actually for the purpose of optimizing the process and when it is simply for the fun of seeing if and/or how different stimuli impacts the overall system.

Sylvie, I, too, have read claims that folk have hatched E. fetida in 15 days or so, but those making this claim can provide no proof and their results have never been verifiably duplicated. There is more than sufficient cause to call such assertions pure bunk! Since I am being frank, I have also heard many people claim to be using incubation bins, and many claiming to be selling and shipping cocoons, but, with the exception of William Kreitzer in Illinois, who IS selling Lumbricus rubellus cocoons to crop farmers, have never seen any evidence of such, even when such information was specifically requested.

You will hear many worm farmers talk of using peat, coir, rotted cow manure and any other manner of bedding, and these people will absolutely SWEAR by THEIR recommendations. When asked to what they compare their choice of bedding, however, we often find that there is either no comparison, the bedding is the one they've always used and was suggested by another worm farmer who said it was the best, or that they've compared only two of the dozens of bedding options possible.

So let's be very, very clear; peat has not qualities that make it uniquely better for hatching worms, growing worms, bedding worms, or keeping worms. In fact, in nature peat bogs harbor very few worm species compared to, say, leaf drifts, manure patties, grass prairie soils, and deciduous forest duff. If peat is the only moisture-retaining material available it is a good choice, but is most definitely NOT proven to be, generally speaking, the optimal choice.

The most productive worm systems are those that, again, duplicate nature and are not over-managed by we humans.

Experimentation is strongly encouraged, so, Darryl, if you're curious about the incubation bin idea, give it a go! Know though, that in concept, it tends to work counter to the idea of increasing worm populations.

If you do run some experiments, be sure to document and evaluate critically, and SHARE! ::grin::

Kelly S

Kelly,

Thanks for the reply and the facts/points that you made as I really appreciate your time and effort. I would like to comment on each point you made...

~ You mentioned how the idea of incubation bins was an idea that has been discussed mainly by worm growers and not home composters. This seems to be true due to the fact that most of what I have read regarding incubation bins was from medium to large scale worm growers. I don't know what you would consider me as being Kelly. What started out years ago as something to help the soil for my wife's plants has turned into an all consuming challenge and work load. You would think that I would let the worm population stabilize and reach it's peak, but not me, I just keep splitting bins and I have even started larger outside systems lol. I think I have lost my common sense (if I had any to begin with). It has went from trying to scrounge food-scraps for the worms to having truck-loads of horse manure shipped here. Good thing I live way out in the country and have the space.

~ You mentioned how the cocoons hatch more quickly with higher temps but the amount of hatchlings per cocoon decrease. That is an interesting point and one I was not aware of.

~ You mentioned how cocoons that were dropped do not always hatchout at the same time resulting in hatchlings that will be older and more grown that others. Yes, I was aware of this fact as I have seen this many times in my systems.

~ Another good point you made is when you mentioned that worms in nature do not segregate their hatchlings from adults. I have always tried to use as natural of systems and supplies as possible with my worms. I mainly use leaves for bedding and horse manure for the bulk of the food source and I don't really want to do anything that is too far from natural.

First off, I never thought that incubating cocoons would speed anything up. Actually, if anything, I was always wondering what the big deal about incubation bins was as I have heard other growers discuss it. That's one of the reasons why I posted here was to try to find out what the big deal is ( if any ) by trying it out for myself.

As for the peat moss, I don't use the stuff. I have used it before but the resulting worm biomass was usually poor in comparison to leaves + newsprint. I mentioned the peat moss in the last post because almost everyone that I have read about who has used an incubation bin has used peat and I can't understand why, especially since many of these same people do not use peat in their regular bins. I am a very curious type person and am always engaging in weird experiments. Probably the very reason I got into worming to begin with. I look at the cocoon thing as just another experiment for myself.

Anyway Kelly, I still don't know if I will experiment with an incubation bin or not. I mean it's like this.... I agree whole-heartedly with all the points that you have made. On the other hand, there are lots of worm growers out there who incubate cocoons. As you mentioned, some of these folks swear by incubation methods. Now in my line of thinking, there has to be some reason as to why these people are swearing by their methodologies, despite what the facts seem to be.

You see Kelly, with as many worms as I am starting to herd, it all has to do with the "work load". If it decreases the work load and is fairly natural, then great, it is for me. Your contention is that cocoon incubation is not decreasing the work load but instead it would increase the work load. If this is indeed true, then incubation is definately not for me. From the points you made, it would seem that it would indeed increase the work load and really bring no benefit for the end results. However, like most other things I have blundered through, I suppose that I may experiment myself. By the way, I raise three different species of worms. I keep EF's, PE's and Euros and I don't know which to try in any type of experiment. It would make sense to try cocons from each species. Of course, if I do this experiment, I will document evry little detail and let you know. However, I can already see that it probably increases the work load and brings no ending benefits. So why perform any experiments? Well, there are some pretty knowledgable worm growers out there and I imagine that there is some reason why they swear by their methodology. Who knows why they do what they do. If I decide to perform an experiment I will let you know Kelly. Hey, thanks for your input and facts cause I have learned much from you in the past and I am sure I will continue to learn from you. Don't get me wrong because I read and learn from all people who post. However, when you speak, I pay extra attention because you are schooled and know your stuff. What knowledge I posses is coming the hard way, from raising lots of worms and from staying glued to forums.

Darryl

Kelly,

I almost forgot.... If I try the incubation experiments, is there a specific way that I should place the cocoons into the bedding or should I just place them at various depths? This was my original question but we went around it. Maybe I should set up several bins and try various places for cocoons inside the bedding? I sure hate to do a bunch of extra work on setting up a bunch of bins though. Kelly, any suggestions or comments on some things to try would be appreciated. Again, thanks for any input Kelly..

Darryl

Here's a story for you, Darryl; many years ago a well-respected worm grower in Florida began holding seminars for others interested in getting in to mid to large-scale vermiculture. As the 8 or so seminar participants were touring the worm facility, an employee of the worming facility was pouring something from a bottle of Pepto-Bismol onto the worm beds. Now, what was in the bottle I do not recall, but it was most certainly NOT Pepto-Bismol, though this was not obvious to the seminar participants. Following the seminar these 8 newly educated worm farmers began their systems, and began posting on internet fora, spreading the word that Pepto enhanced vermiculture systems. Shortly after broadcasting this claim, someone came up with the unresearched theory that Pepto increased the amount of castings the worms produced, a theory that somehow got morphed into the ridiculous claim that using Pepto made the worms poop so much that they feared for their lives and, in a dying effort to perpetuate the species, bred more prolifically. Now all of this was pure, unadulterated bunk, but it was being spread by people who had taken a valid seminar from a respected worm grower, thus, the outrageously bizar and incorrect recommendation to use Pepto was taken seriously by many worm growers. As worm growers and home vermicomposters tend to frequent the same fora, and since many erroneously assume that management of a vemriculture system is essentially the same as management of a vermicomposting system, we had people all over the world suddenly pouring Pepto-Bismol into their worm bins. It took us several years to dispell the Pepto myth.

I still, daily, battle the internet-fed myth that a worm bed needs to be maintained at a neutral pH though there is reams of data, both anecdotal and research-based that this is neither necessary nor correct.

I still, daily, battle the internet-driven myth that soldier fly larvae enter worm bins as eggs attached to the peels of fruits and veggies.

I still, daily, battle the internet myth that onion, garlic, citrus and even pineapple should be excluded from a worm bin because they damage the worm population.

I still, daily, battle the myth that the worms have favorite foods, have specific protein requirements, and that they need a variety of feedstocks in order to thrive!

The information age has elevated critical thinking to an imperative. While I am so enormously flattered by the confidence many of you express in my advice and posts, it is my most sincere hope that you do NOT follow any "gurus", regardless of who they are or how educated the seem, as we are all wrong sometimes, even when we sound like we know where-of we speak. As Chuckie so often, but so rightly laments, there is staggeringly little data about worms compared to the volume of questions out there. For anyone to suggest that they have all the answers is truly arrogant and almost certainly wrong. Even those who have years of worming experience under their belt likely have experience with only a species or two in one environment using a handful of the many different potential feedstocks. Their ability to offer advice to someone dealing with different worms in a different environment using different bedding and feedstock is, obviously, questionable.

Here's another quick story; I once studied under a professor who had us do an exercise in observation using a lighted candle. We were to write down all observations without prejudice. Without fail, each of we students wrote down that the wick was burning, the problem being, that this was not an observation, but an intepretation of our observations. What we could observe was the flame coming from the wick, and the curled, blackened wick tip, but the statement that the wick was 'burning' was an ASSUMPTION based on those observations.

When we look in a worm bin we need to keep the candle story in mind; we must be aware of when we are making observations and when we are forming assumptions/theories based on those observations. We would all be much better educated and likely even more successful vermicomposters and vermiculturists than we already are were we to use such critical evaluation.

As to spreading cocoons in the bin, there is no data anywhere to suggest a method for introducing them so do what feels right. Keep in mind that, in nature, cocoons are found everywhere the environment was suitable for the adult worms depositing those cocoons, so, theoretically there is no wrong way of bedding them.

Wow, take a little time off from working and I just get chatty! Please forgive my soap-boxing and the length of this post!

Kelly S

Kelly,

Your stories are most instructive and they are indeed good examples of how faulty info gets passed on and exacerbated. Please, don't worry about the long post because you were making some very good points, plus I enjoy hearing from you. I agree 100% with your points... Despite lots of the incorrect info on the web, I have learned much from various forums and from all types of people who post. As a matter of fact, I never have attended any vermi seminars or even visited a worm farm before. When I first started "spying" on various vermi forums, I was a total newbie with anything vermi. All of what I now know was learned from forums, various websites, and from people such as yourself, as well as "old timers" who had been raising worms for quite some time. So, despite the fact that faulty info and advice is often propogated throughout the web, forums such as this one, are powerful learning tools for us who have not had any biology, agriculture, or vermi knowledge from formal institutions. Like you say, the trick is to not take all you read on the forums as gospel. When in doubt, a person should experiment for themselves. Like yourself, I have also received false data from the web. Yes, I too believed for a long time that garlic affected the worm populations and that worms would leave if exposed to it. However one day I accidentally threw some onions into one of my bins. The worms ate it up as well as the other scraps with no ill effects. So, I started experimenting with different amounts of onions and all without the slightest harm to the worms or any other side-effect that I could notice. I also learned through experimentation about the neutral PH myth. I usually run my bins slightly acidic and have never noticed any ill effects. But yet, most all web sites for beginners will tell you the opposite. So, you see Kelly, I have already discovered that many of these sites are incorrect with some of their data.

It could very well be that many well-intentioned worm farmers have been mislead and are incubating cocoons due to some myth that was propogated. However, if and when I do any cocoon experiments, then I will discover for myself.

Kelly, I hope you don't mind this question but do you have something against worm farmers or growers? (just curious) I noticed that several times you have made distinctions between home composters and worm farmers. I realize this forum is probably more for home composters and people who want to better their soil quality. However, I too started out with the idea of improving soil by use of vermicompost (I was a home composter). However, I went overboard and found myself wanting to herd more and more worms. I love what castings do for soil. So, despite the fact that I make an effort to grow large numbers of worms, I am also into it for soil improving effects as well as the recycling effects. However, I don't consider myself a worm farmer either because I do not sell castings or worms for profit. I may have to one of these days though in order to compensate for all of the work, and time I am exerting on the worms. If I ever start selling anything, then I will consider myself a worm farmer at that time. So I don't know what class I fall into. My wife loves what I do as she is a "nature freak" so that is all that really matters to me.

Anyway Kelly, I truely do have much respect for you as you are always on the web trying to help people by giving sound advice and knowledge. Lots of knowledgeable folks would never exert the energy to help others. But I have seen you on many sites thruout my traverses across the web and you are always helping people who ask questions of you. That says alot in itself..

Darryl

Heavens, Darryl! I have no problem at all with worm growers! In fact, I have worked for and with various worm farms for many years! I do routinely make the distinction between worm farming and vermicomposting, however, because the focus of the two is very different, which is not commonly understood, and which often leads to confusion.

Nope, no prejudice here! Just a need to be very clear in my communication.

Kelly S

Ok Kelly and that sounds good. Sorry for that last question and I sort of figured you didn't have anything against worm farmers but I was just making sure :)

You mentioned that the focus between vermicomposting and worm farming is different and not commonly understood. That is definately an understatement because I have looked all over the web and found little concerning worm farming techniques. Most vermicomosting forums/websites do not have much info regarding raising composting worms in mass quantities. I leaned some techniques from other worm farmers that allows me to greatly increase the populations. For the longest time I could never get the biomass/numbers of worms to increase no matter how much food they were exposed to. I would end up with vermicompost but always have the same number of worms that I started with. It wasn't until a worm farmer from Austrialia explained how he does it that it all began to make sense. Since that time, I have been able to focus more on biomass rather than vermicompost production (at least for now).

So what are the techniques.

When you say biomass, you mean the amount of worms, but doesn't that imply the rate of food being eaten by the worms is larger too.

I'd love to increase my food consumption rate. I started with only 300 worms at the end of Dec'04 so it's been a slow ride up.

Wait, I can put onions in my bin? I could have done this all along? :: cheers ::

I think that I was told not to when reading "Worms Eat My Garbage", though I don't want to libel Mary's name. If I hadn't returned the copy I had to the library, I'd check.

Yes - please tell us the Austrialian secrets of increased bio-mass

My worms are so slow to breed I've even fed them small amounts of Viagra!

Then I tought I had killed all the worms and rigormortis had set in

After a while they got all soft and squiggly again but I don't think they were having wild sex

bruce

Bruce, newbie314,

It's not really a secret at all. The theory is rather simple and common sense but it does however take some time to get used to.... Basically, it all has to do with timing and removal of worms. Also, your main goal would be to harvest "worms" and not castings.

What I used to do was start a new bin, then let it process for 3 to 4 months and then dump the entire contents including worms and castings. I would then sort out the worms from the finished castings but when I weighed my harvested worms, there would always be the same biomass as when I started. No matter how I devised schemes to split my bins up the same things always happened. However, I did obtain some pretty good vermicompost.

Instead of waiting for a bin to process for three to four months as described above, the technique is to remove "some" of your worms about every 30 days or so and place them into a new bin. By removing worms on a continous basis ( every 30 days or so), the worms will never reach their max population for the bin. Also, you want to remove some of the castings each time you remove some of the worms. I have been told that the castings building up is what is responsible for the worms not reproducing too fast. You will have to ask Kelly about that but I only know it works, so here is what I have been doing as suggested by others and it works really good...

I start a vermicompost bin and care for it just like normal. However, after about 6 weeks (not months) when you first notice castings starting to appear at the top of the bedding (still lots of unproccessed material), then it is time to harvest "some" of the worms. To do this I attract the worms to the top of the bedding by placing some food on "top" of the bedding surface. After a couple of days, a large number of the worms will be attracted to the top of the bin where the food is at. Then, simply take the top 4 inches of the bedding (worms and all) and remove it from the bin. At this point in time, you have removed a large portion of your worms from the bin, but you really do not want to remove too many. Replace about 1/2 - 3/4 of them back into the old bin. All as your trying to do is to remove a small portion of your worms (maybe 20% or so) and place them into a new bin.. Also, in addition to the 4 inches of bedding and worms that I remove, I also remove a couple more inches of vermicompost. So all together, I have removed about 6 inches of vermicompost/bedding from the original bin. You need to replace this right away with new fresh bedding material. You can start a new bin with the few worms (and vermicompost) that you have removed from the original bin. Then, every 30 days, remove some more worms from the original bin and throw them into the second bin that you have already started. Make sure you also remove some of the vermicompost. So, if you remove some worms every 30 days, and if you make sure that you also remove about 6 inches of castings (or vermicompost) then your worms should multiply good. This takes experience to get the hang of because if you remove too many worms from the original bin, then breeding will be slow. Also, you cannot remove just worms but you must also remove some vermicompost and replace it with fresh bedding. I don't know the exact mechanism behind why this works I only know it works for me. I have been told by others who use similar techniques that as the castings build up then the worms do not breed as much. If I am incorrect about why certain things happen here, then you will have to excuse me but I have only propogated what I have been told. Kelly will hopefully correct this if any of the facts are bunk. I only know that this technique works because I have been using it for some time now and it doesn't take long before you will be operating lots of bins. I had so many bins that I eventually had to start some outside systems and it happened in short order. By adding new bedding every 30 days when you remove some of the worms and bedding, you are sort of "diluting" the ratio of castings to brown bedding material. If you do not remove some of the castings then each time you remove some of the worms, it really will not do you much good because the worms will slow down in breeding from the castings building up. So, the two important factors are to remove some of your worms every 30 days and also to remove some of the castings every 30 days as well (at the same time). In addition to the original bin, you have started a second bin with a few worms in it. You will be adding to this bin every 30 days with a few worms from the original bin. Once you start to see castings building up in this bin, then you can do the same thing to it that you did with the original bin. You can start a third bin. Another important thing to know, is that in the original bin, you should do a total harvest of castings after 6 months or so. You will be taking worms out of it every 30 days but after about 6 months the castings towards the bottom half of the bin will be processed a great deal. I hope I explained this well enough but if not I will try again, just let me know what you may be foggy on or don't quite understand.

Darryl