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raquibird

worms lacking nitrogen output

raquibird
16 years ago

I do my worming outside - I have 4 trenches and use primarily kitchen scraps - once in a while some coffee grounds just to sprinkle on the hard earth at the bottom of my trenches, some newspaper sheets to cover all for insulation, and then some straw or dried grasses to insulate the whole thing. My castings are scrumptious. However...I did a soil test on the finished compost and it was low in - hold on - nitrogen. How can that be????? And my soil in the beds was fine with nitrogen but was very lacking in phosphorus. So...any suggestions would be so appreciated. Friend delivered 2 yards of what looks and feels like finished horse manure - and I bought bone meal to up the phosphorus. We live in CA in the mountains and I am able to do planting now - besides garlic I always start my peas now and chard, etc. Vegetables this last season: foliage beautiful, but vegetables awful: barely any and not wonderful like they always have been. I'm assuming phosporus lack. Perhaps I need a little sit-down with my worms?

Thanks so much.

Comments (14)

  • tclynx
    16 years ago

    What kind of soil test was it? A little home soil test kit? Saddly those are not very accurate and the challenge with nitrogen tests is that they have a hard time telling how much nitrogen will be available to the plants since your soil health can have a lot to do with it. If it was a test done by your cooporative extension service then you can probably just follow their recomendations for the amounts/kinds of fertilizer you should use.

    Your great foliage but shy flowering/fruiting could be from an over abundance of nitrogen or lack of phosphorus or even something besides nutrients like sun/temp lack of pollinators (if there were flowers but no fruit.) I live in an area where phosphorus is more likely to be abundant rather than lacking so I'm not the best position to help you with phosphorus questions.

    I don't think worm castings are meant to be a high nitrogen amendment to your soil. Their real benefit is all the soil microbes they promote and thus helping you get healthy soil.

  • newoahuwormer
    16 years ago

    I thought coffee grounds were a good source of nitrogen? I've read the opposite in some composting sites so I'm confused. And your green waste - leave the grass that you have mowed/cut is supposed to be rich in nitrogen.

    Hope you figured it out!

  • wfike
    16 years ago

    Worm castings are not supposed to be high in nitrogen. Usually about 1-1-1 in the npk readings. Thats not what they provide the plants with. It is the good bacteria and LOADS of micro-nutrients that they provide. An abundance of nitrogen just grows off a lot of folige and not fruit.

  • squeeze
    16 years ago

    as said, worm castings aren't high in anything, like any compost, they're a soil conditioner and microbial booster .... with grounds, available N is what's relevent:
    "Each cubic yard of these coffee grounds contains a total of 10.31 lbs. nitrogen, of which 0.01 lb. (0.09%) are available" the microbes work on the N, not worms - see link below

    Bill

    Here is a link that might be useful: about coffee grounds

  • walt9
    16 years ago

    According to a USDA experiment, as found in "Earthworms for Ecology & Profit", Ronald E. Gaddie, Sr., worms increase nitrogen 500%, Available phosphorous 700%, Exchangeable potassium 1200%, Exchangeable calcium 150%, and Organic carbon 200%. I have tried to find the original test documents to verify but without success. does anyone know where this supporting documentation can be found?

  • squeeze
    16 years ago

    a USDA experiment? that's a book, published by a worm business [who're trying to make the profit!]

    worms don't increase anything, they merely aid in the decomposition and conversion of organic materials to a more "humus like" state, you can't get more minerals out of something than you put into it - vermicompost is like bin compost, a soil conditioner, NOT a fertilizer, and NPK will always be pretty mild, like 1-1-1

    Bill

  • walt9
    16 years ago

    Dear Squeeze:

    That is why I am trying to find if that USDA document is true.
    I have done simple soil tests on worm food products and there has been an increase in NPK. But my soil test equipment does not provide a numerical reading.

    w

  • squeeze
    16 years ago

    what are "worm food products"? you mean castings? and increase in NPK over what? your garden soil? newspaper?

    doing a soil test on compost gives you an indication of the nutrient levels in that sample, reflecting nutrients that were used as initial bin inputs, nothing else, and if you had a good analysis of the NPK of those inputs you'd find there is less in the finished compost, the balance having leached, gassed off, or been used to support the microbial populations involved in the decomposition

    being most interested in food waste composting, both hot bin and worm bin, I've had a number of compost samples [from both methods] lab tested - the N varied from 1.8 to 2.8%, in a mineralized form [desireable], the food waste inputs all had higher N than that, in organic form .... in addition, boron, copper, iron, maganese and zinc were all higher than would be found in garden soil due to the fact that the foods we eat are generally high in those things

    the testing results certainly had some higher readings than the garden soil would have, and it no doubt had some lower as well - what's more important with compost is the bacterial content and the C:N ratio to support them, in the form of humus, those 2 things being the "health" of your soil, not high NPK readings

    the object of any composting isn't increasing anything or 'making fertilizer', it's the salvage and sequestering [capture] of nutrients otherwise wasted

    Bill

  • walt9
    16 years ago

    this was taken from Vermitech's web site and may explain some confusion on the authors part and my understanding if in fact what Vermitech says is true.
    http://www.vermitech.com/worm_fr.htm
    "The Vermitech worm beds optimise the consumption rate of waste plus it allows a large contact time for continued bacterial and enzyme activity. As a result of the combined action of the worms and their enzymes and bacteria, an analysis of worm castings when compared to the parent soil shows approximately:

    * 7 times the available phosphorous
    * 6 times the available nitrogen
    * 3 time the available magnesium
    * 2 times the available carbon
    * 1.5 times the available calcium

    The total mineral balance is not increased by worm activity. Rather the conversion changes the amount of nutrient available to the plant. The minerals have been changed form an insoluble form to a plant - available, soluble form. This has major implications for the reduction in the negative impact caused by nutrient leaching into our water systems. Vermicast's nutrients being more readily available are absorbed when applied reducing leaching and run-off."

  • squeeze
    16 years ago

    that's about what I've been saying Walt, it has to do with available nutrients, and they're comparing to the parent soil, not the bin inputs, but the soil

    and nitrogen [protein] is what worms and bacteria consume to grow and reproduce, carbon [carbohydrate] is what both use to do work, ie: they consume it, not produce it, the amount of N in the system can't increase, only decrease - no free lunch :)

    you're relating the advertising of an outfit whose survival depends on selling castings and worms [and books] - some better info on soil health and the processes:
    usda on soil organics
    usda on earthworms [note the menu on the left about soil biology generally]
    soil nitrogen cycle
    about humus and nutrients

    Bill

  • denno
    16 years ago

    Thanks for posting those great links, Bill. Always good to get 'printed matter' from the experts on this mystery of life.

  • davidhorse2_aol_com
    12 years ago

    my neighbor told me that putting nitrogen on my lawn for the grass will kill any worms i have....is this true thank you

  • PeterK2
    12 years ago

    In what form David? Your basic store chemical fertilizer is a salt, so yes they won't like it. Kill them all of depends on how much etc. If you read organic gardening they'll say most things don't like it which is why they hate chemical fertilizers. Kills lots of the organic life in the ground, which is good for the fertilizer sellers as you have to buy more next time.

    Here's a quick link, the topic is a fun internet research read if you like that stuff.
    http://www.garden-ville.com/4376871_36600.htm
    And yes there's always a sales pitch and what can you believe etc. But personally with all the time mother nature has been around, I always think her way is best.

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