Hot stuff.
It would be cool to have a thermometer that could stay there and report results automatically to your computer by graph.

Great stuff mendopete - I really relate to your simple approach to rearing worms. It is easy to understand where farming these critters can be maximized in a specialized and tightly controlled environment the lure or cover em up and come back in the spring is hard to argue.

Equinox, have a look at two-wire products by TI. I played with some of those button sensors years ago and they have a lot of good going for them along the lines of long wire length, low cost and simple to implement.

ETA*** Sorry about that, it was 1-Wire by Dallas Semi I meant to mention.

This post was edited by Nexev on Thu, Nov 13, 14 at 0:55

Intresting observations pete,popular opinion is 110F would cook any worm unable to retreat/escape. Now if only there is a way of doing this in a smaller bin. I have limited success overwintering outdoors in salvaged refigerators maintained between 40F and 80F by solar energy. I strive to avoid suplimental heat of any kind but wind up having to occasionaly. I use scrap copper wire,plate and pipe to transfer heat from a trap to bedding. Both trap and bedding have ballast to help level out temps. It will be simple to A.alow additional solar gain in both trap and bed B.add ballast and C.feed heavier. If i can alow an additional 30F swing,that go's a long way to reduce monitoring. North Central Tx is mild by most accounts and rarly has more than consective 3 days below freezing and/or without clear skies. I'm so giddy about the prospects I may begain at the crack of dawn despite colder than usual weather this week. That only covers cold weather. As you know it get's "plenty hot" in summer so overheating can be determental to anything confined outdoors. Seems the same folks who said worms die above 80F also said worms are easy to drown. As a result of limiting moisture in hot weather I lost 100% worms and eggs once. As it turns out you could probily hold worms in an aquirium with an air pump in the water. I keep the bin beneath a shade tree and use the same home made copper contraption to fashion evaporative cooling. That in conjunction with rainwater hearvest paraphernalia has convinced the neighborhood kids I have a meth lab or moonshine still in my back yard. Once again thumbs up pete,thanks for the report.

Might be the pureed, aerated worm food will have enough live bacteria for worms to eat. When it's warm enough for me to go outside, I'll give the outdoor bin a heavy feeding and do a little observing.

blurring threads :

My bins aren't dense enough, ever, to see a bloom of hatchlings. I did observe a nursery in a half-egg shell with a horse pucky purposefully placed in it. Most of the cocoons are as dispersed as the worms in horse manure.

(Next July the dehydrated castings and worms will get rehydrated without adding worms. To be continued.)

klem1, are you just trying to keep the worms processing as much as possible, or worried that if the worms get too cold they'll die?

I'm in a very cold climate - weeks of minus 20C are not that unusual - and the worms outdoors always bounce back in spring, even if the pile was frozen solid. Granted, they don't do much decomposing in winter, but when it all thaws, they get right to it.

I also find that my worms don't seem to mind excursions to over 100F in the bins. I keep the bins quite moist to help with evaporative cooling, and do not put any lids on top, again for the cooling. On a hot day, the top part of the bin, in the sun may be as hot as 107F, and I will still find plenty of worms in the material. Further down in the same bin the temperature might be 85F, and there are worms there as well. I've killed my share of worms in the past, and I think the very moist conditions I maintain are a key to their survival in the heat. A side benefit is that materials decomposes quite quickly in the heat. Since one of my main uses for the worms is to compost huge quantities of plant waste, I like to see fast decomposition.
Renais

Hello armourd,a primary objective is low maintainance in producing castings for veggie and flower gardens. Other objectives include preserving earth through good pritices and recycling. With that in mind I would like to use as little fuel and manufactured products in the process as possible. I have use for as much casting as I can get my hands on,hell,if someone offered a semi load I would spread it on turf and under trees surounding my home. Thanks to real life experiences shared by folks like pete I'm slowly realizing that much of what is espoused here is simply repeating what one heared from another who heared it from someone who posted a link. So here we are,i went out this morning and comendered an old electric water heater to use in place of black 1 gallon and 5 gallon containers for ballast. Now I'm told worms will survive or more acuratly,spring back after being frozen for days below 0F. At 110F petes worms were still very active. Unanswered questions applical to both max and minum temps are A. at what temp will activity begin slowing? B. over what range will activity continue to slow? C. at what temp will adults,juvenils,cocoons become terminal? D. what are the effects temp "swings" on survival as well as production? That is to say which is most detrimental,30 consetive days 30 deg F below/above optium or 30 days at same temp with two brief periods where temps return to optium. As it stands,I can't afford buying enough worms to inhabite a mound like pete's if I were to lose them. When I'm comfortable in not losing them,I will release everything in my bins into a pile that size.

Klem1 - these are just my own experiences based on as little work as possible (hence why I've never tried heating their beds in winter), not universal or scientific. Simply put, compost worms found in nature survive in nature when they have 'normal' conditions. In winter, in big enough piles and access to ground, they either hibernate or lay cocoons or whatever, they reappear when things get warm again.

As to your specific questions: activity 'slows' progressively as it gets closer to freezing. Since the pile may frequently be warmer than surrounding air, 'hot' from composting and/or insulated, there may/will be some activity at surprisingly low temperatures (like there may be stuff going on in the pile when air temperature is below freezing). That said, I notice slowness at and below freezing temperature. The pile itself may not 'freeze' noticeably except at edges until minus 10-15 C - may depend on what else is in there, etc.

I don't see a 'terminal' temp on the low end - but at that temperature, I'm not digging into the pile to check, either. When it thaws, they come back. Usually freezing/thawing has helped prepare their food sources, too, so that helps.

I wouldn't recommend buying large numbers for an outside pile. Compost worms (local to your environment) will tend to show up at the feedpile on their own, and they'll be well adapted. You can also 'seed' your pile with some worms from your bins and let them get busy, if you're in no rush.

And of course, I'm just telling my experience - hope it applies to worms elsewhere...I will say that I do not know how worms would survive in a small bin with no access to ground in winter.

Hey Pete,
What kind of worms are you raising in your pile?
I have heard that about night crawlers making through the winter like that because they can burrow down so deep and escape the frost but I hadn't heard that compost worms could do the same.
This certainly would be a great way to get rid of large amounts of waste without the need for a bin. I have gotten red wigglers through some pretty cold winters with worm towers.
Thanks,

klem1 - wrote

As it stands,I can't afford buying enough worms to inhabite a mound like pete's if I were to lose them. When I'm comfortable in not losing them,I will release everything in my bins into a pile that size.
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Klem, while the worms are important in a mound like mendopetes the more important part is the mound itself. No food, no worms. Mendopetes large mounds on the ground also provide other subtle elements as in the ability of the worms that are there to move to where they like even if it is out of the mound itself.

You dont even have to turn your whole herd out when you do get a mound ready, just seed it and they will if conditions are good for them populate it on their own. Meanwhile as the mound sits there decomposing by means other than worms it is just making better worm food.

So if you have a place for the mound put it together with whatever organic materials you have and toss a small handful of worms in, other local residents may move in too if your ground has them. I would try and set up some sort of ideal location where the seed worms are introduced by adding some kitchen scraps that are beginning to break down (maybe even blender it up a little) and some moistened cardboard torn up and crumpled. Keep the mound moist and add more food as it needs it and given time they will take care of bringing the numbers up.

I forgot to mention I live in a mild climate near the coast. Daytime highs have been about 65F with lows around 40F. Soil temperature is 57F.

Nexev, simple approach is right. Worm populations increase much quicker when you keep them together and provide for them.

Klem, your solar speed-still wormery heater contraption sounds creative and interesting. Good stuff!
I am not sure you want to heat your refer bins to 110F. Use caution with enclosed systems. The bed with the hotspot mentioned has cooler areas around, on top and below. Maybe bring it up a little at a time and monitor.
Regarding bed temps, I strive for 75F. I think a steady temp is better than having daily fluctuations. My worms' activity slows around 60F, and comes to a stop at 50F. My bed have bottomed out at 40F and it didn't seem to hurt anything, but worms were lethargic.

Armoured, thanks for your post. Have you noticed whether your worms are all babies or juveniles when you first see them in the spring? Wondering if they somehow survive, or are they all the next generation.

Renais, good to hear you have also observed worms tolerance to heat. I also maintain a high moisture beds. They can't be to wet sitting open on the earth.

I opened up the carpet today, probing, digging, checking densities, reading temps, and taking more pics.

Hottest reading was 118F. Worms were present in the top inch or so They covered the top of the hay leaf with casts.. Moving hay back and digging to the core of the heat, I found no worms below the surface, only some steam! Most worms have moved to cooler areas, ranging from 80-90F

In this pic you see undisturbed bed with worms on top to the left, hay leaf pulled back on the right, and the temp below reading 118F. The hay has dried from the heat.

This is what I saw when the bed was first exposed. The hay leafs are no longer visible, just castings and worms.

MrBackyard, I don't really know the variety of worms I have. I started with a small bucket of bedrun about 6 years back. I grew them and picked up many many volunteers along the way.. Maybe you can ID them by this photo for me. They are not nightcrawlers, just red wiggler composting worms. They get MUCH bigger in this carpet bin. Breeders are at least 4" and strtch out to maybe 6".

Nexev, the method you describe may work, but is not how I have been managing my worms. I started this mound with a few worms, a few totes of castings and a wheelbarrow full of horse manure. I only added more manure when the previus offering was unrecognizable, usually 7-14 days. This topfeeding keeps the worms up on top with air. Manure NEVER smells in this bed.This mound was built one wheelbarrow load at a time over the past 3-4 years. It is harvested by removing the bedrun (top 6-8" with most worms and cocoons) then digging out the mostly pure castings, then replacing the bedrun. It way overdue for harvesting!!!!

Klem, be careful playing with fire in your situation.

Good luck all, and don't cook your squirm.

mendopete: It is way cool seeing all the worms right under the rolled back covering. Possibly there is a bit of steam in the photo.

"This topfeeding keeps the worms up on top with air." Nice sentence. Lots of information there.

Wendy's Clara won't be dissapointed when she visits your herd and asks "Where's the worms!"

Nice pictures. No where else could we get pictures like these. Thanks mendopete! Worm stars playing to the camera.

Great Quote: "Good luck all, and don't cook your squirm."

I am glad you like the pics EQx2. I have not been able to photo and post until recently my friend Shila came by, took photos, and showed me how to post them. She snapped a few more yesterday, and I like sharing them because few others are interested.

Here is another of the bed first exposed.... and a predator looking for a meal!

Pete: Wonderful pics. Thanks for posting/sharing them.
Faced with soo many worms, your predator couldn't decide where to go fist. :)

Thank you so much, Pete, for all those pics ! They're really great ! Isn't that a gourmet meal for your predator, it sure beats Thanksgiving dinner ! And all the more if the predator is the one being roasted :-)

You're absolutely right concerning the burlap effect, I put some burlap around an artichoke last sunday, covered it with horse poop and straw, and today, one week later, it's already invaded with worms ! Reminded me of this old belief of the middle ages about spontaneous generation, when people used to believe that a little heap of rags in the attic would make appear mice spontaneously with no genitors whatsoever ;-)

Well, an artichoke in the middle of the grass, some burlap, some poop, and tadaa ! worms ! Thank you for the advice, I now know how to create worms out of thin air ;-)

You rock, Pete, great pics, great wormeries, and great multitude of worms !

@mendopete - I can't say for sure that the worms that come back in spring are next generation or adults that made it through. Usually I notice adults fairly early on, but it's entirely possible they hatched in the pile early and grew quickly. My hunch is adults can live through in certain conditions, but my conviction is that it doesn't matter to me much either way ))

Update: With time and 1" of rain, the carpet bed has cooled to 100F in the hottest area. Worms still seem quite happy. I wanted to cover it due to another 2"+ rain predicted in the next 48 hours. I decided the tarp may retain too much heat and not provide the cool refuge just underneath the carpet. I will wait a little longer.
This thread is intended to offer the idea that beneficial heat for wormeries CAN be provided by adding food and bedding. It is VERY difficult to control. Outdoor open systems seem to be able to handle the hot beds during cooler months. I think iheat can greatly improve casting production and worm reproduction when it is cold. Trying this with a smaller enclosed system would likely cause disaster.
I do not know if the cocoons got cooked/killed under this heat. Time and close observation may tell. I was not expecting 118F. Usually I top-feed 3-4" at a time and the bed temps runs about +10F above ground temps

Francoise, I am glad you found some of my rambling useful. I am always amazed at how worms "appear" from nowhere.

Armoured, your conviction is the correct approach. It works for you. I would do the same .

Good luck and happy wormin'

Here are happy predators on the "underside" of the carpet. Great eggs!

"great eggs" Yeah, with yellow yolks yellower ! More orange than yellow aren't they ?

I don't know if I could sacrifice so many worms though ! It's a sacrilege here on this forum to show such a mass slaughter ;-)

Our eggs have very orange yolks Francois though we dont feed much in the way of live protein yet. Dont see how turning worms into eggs or fish is anything other than one more link in the chain.

Most of our supplement has been garden scraps through the growing season and lately has been the now ragged little pasture. We also collect any weeds and clip herbs for them.

Looking forward to the time that our vermherd is numerous enough for the hens to really have a good time with them.

Pete, was wondering if you just continue to pile new food on top or if you are feeding to one side to get the herd to follow it out of the finished VC.

After having my recently constructed compost pile at temps around 140-160F for nearly 3 weeks, I'm wondering if I can now "seed" the pile with redworms? The pile has cooled to about 60F. Will the worms just work the top few inches of the pile or will they work their way deeper into the compost? (the compost pile is approx. 4'x3'x2'deep).
thanks,
Harry
P.S I just joined today so this is my first posting, so hope I've done things correctly!

I am a worm lover a can't just let the chickens have their way in the wormbed. Shila snapped that pic while I was distracted probing with the thermometer and digging around. They actually seem to prefer the ever-present sow bugs that scamper when exposed. And yes. the egg yolks are as orange as a sunrise. Delicious!

Nexev, This bed was intended to be fed to the side and harvested behind. BUT I was overwhelmed with horse manure. I did not have the bed-space, so it just kept getting taller. The bed is about 3.5 years old and only within the past 4 months have I been "moving" the pile (toward the camera and right in the first photo).

So the intent is to migrate them laterally like they do in the big windrow operations. Honestly that seems like the easiest option as they will move towards food and the finished VC harvested off the other end.

I kind of wonder about those long windrows though in that a finished zone might end up created between the stragglers and the live end of the row Something like a barren desert to the worms left behind, where would the go then? Maybe a better option would be to feed the long side of a windrow and sort of rock it back and forth on the feed side harvest side?

As much as I love what the little guys are doin for us I just cant give them clemency when it comes to what else they can provide in terms of protein. Just like amongst the hens there is a pecking order at work here. Mine will pounce all the other crawlies too when present but they will also dig deep for an EH they know is hiding in the soil.

I've been doing the same thing with my outdoor worm bin I've been using fresh horse manure leaves straw and food scraps to create a hot active compost in the center and this way it will provide heat for my worms throughout the winter. This is my first winter as a worm farmer ... I hope all works out. Im glad to have Garden web.com and all You to help me...

Happy worm farming

Update: The carpet bed received 2" of rain last night. This morning the bed temps are a pretty uniform 78F which is perfect. Outside air temp is 60F, the exact same as the ground soil temps. I will monitor the bed temp a little longer in case it reheats again. If the bed temp is stable in a few days, I will cover it with a tarp and ignore it for awhile.

"Maybe a better option would be to feed the long side of a windrow and sort of rock it back and forth on the feed side harvest side?"
Nexev, That was exactly what I PLANNED to do. I have seen it called a "wedge" system. I needed a bigger carpet :0. Security for outside wormin' is important, and yet challenging. I've seen photos of windrow vermicomposting operations with no cover. How do they prevent pedators? Ravens, chickens, dogs, cats, rats, mice, skunks, possum, snakes are among the predators here. They would tear up an open bed quickly. I just needed the entire surface area of the bed to handle horse output. It took about 240sq' of wormbed surface area to keep up. Getting the manure into the beds daily was my goal, as I did not have to re-hydrate the manure and kept flies and odor down. Feedings were rotataed, so each area of the beds were fed every 10 days or so with a few inches of fresh pure horse manure.

Good job OrganicAdam! Creating free beneficial heat from compost is a wonderful thing.
Maybe monitor the bed moisture and temps and "stoke the fire" once in a while. The heat can dry things out a little. Adding moisture cools the bed some, but seems essential. I think you will be pleased in the spring.

We have finally been getting some much needed rain and the bed has been covered with a tarp. Rain has cooled the ground/soil to 52F. I find that the open bottom wormbed temperatures here are usually 5-10F higher than the ground temp. Yesterdays probe showed slow activity and 58-62F in all the beds except the carpet bed. The center where I overfed/hot composted is 75-80F. Lots of worms, many juveniles. Most have spread deeper into the cooling manure. Around the edge of the bed that didn't get "heat treated", fewer worms and cooler temperatures were found.

I found this mushroom growing under the carpet...

Happy wormin'

Nice picture. Like the texture of the background. It looks life enhancing as evidenced by the mushrooms.

It is a cool picture.

I was just thinking about that number 240sq ft.

In a well performing bed one would see a potential of 1lb of worms per sq ft and with a 1 to 1 daily conversion of feed to castings that would be nearly 2,000lbs of casting a week.

Those are probably overly optimistic numbers but even half or a quarter of that would be an awesome yield for the garden.

Those mushrooms kinda look like little pillsbury doughboys. In the past clusters of larger mushrooms have lifted a section of the carpet off the bed.

Klem, were you successful raising your bin temps? I would like to learn more about your solar heating system.

"I was just thinking about that number 240sq ft."
Nexev, you got ME thinking about that number also. When we acquired a horse, my worm systems went into rapid expansion. New manure was not added until the previous addition was transformed to black fluff. This took about 2 weeks at first. Excess manure was used as bedding to start new systems, until I had enough bed space to handle the daily doses of fresh horse goodness.
The beds matured and really "hit their stride" in the spring of 2012. Fresh manure was transformed in less than a week. A 12'x12"x 8" deep section of the carpet bed was excavated and removed for a census. It filled a 5 gallon bucket and a light sort revealed 5 cups of worm mass, or 2.5 lbs./sq'. (2 cups of worm mass=1lb). More mature breeder worms and fewer juveniles and babies were observed. At this point, the carpet bed would have handled one horse or about 50lbs of manure daily. I decided to thin the herd by giving away and selling bedrun. In May, well over 100 lbs of worms were removed, and the bed had nearly recovered when the horse left and my back went out in July of 2012. I did some calculations, and if a person worked at it, they could cover the expense of feeding and maintaining a horse by turning its poop into worms and castings and selling them!

As far as your estimates, yes they are overly optimistic. I am not an expert and my systems are not ideal for casting production. I estimate that it takes an average of 5 days for 1 lb. of food to be consumed by 1 lb. of worms, in my beds. Faster in the summer, slower in the winter. Also, 1 lb of manure does not create 1 lb of castings. I'd guess the "worm-ready" fully hydrated manure is at least 80% water by weight, most of which is used by the worms, evaporated or leached out.

Good luck and happy wormin'

Pete

Shoot, dang near everything is water weight Pete, even casting I would imagine. Completely understand some of that water is lost along the way though.

Your guesstimate of 20% total mass for daily consumption sure falls way flat of what everything I see written though again I understand the proviso of 'in my beds'. Some say 1 to 1 but most say 0.5 to 1 (food to worms) though I suppose that would heavily depend on the food.

I know in the end it dont really matter, the worms will eat what they eat and multiply at the rate their amorous activities dictate. Its still entertaining to think about the possibilities as the cold sets in... 14 weeks until last frost :0

On a side note, a new orca was born at Seaworld in San Diego this week. One of my daughters works there so we are going down for a visit and hopefully get to see the baby. Bet whale poo would be great for the worm bed :)

I came across the link below on an inmate program today. You guys have probably seen all of this stuff a dozen times over but I thought it was a really good read and also felt the program itself a great idea. Their take on splitting casting production and worm production was interesting and something that could have much more depth to it.

Here is a link that might be useful: WSRU Vermiculture Program

WOW !

73 or 77 pages depending on whether you look at the pdf page number ,
or on the page itself.

Check out the chicken tractor on 69/73.

Everything you need to know.

Tho I think some of us would quibble with some of their "facts".
eg. ( exempli gratia or for example ) whether a dense bin results in more or less reproduction. As CB likes to say, maybe " it depends".

Are any of the inmates on this forum ?
If not, why not. ?

Here is a link that might be useful: WSRU Monroe Vermicomposting

Mendopete,

Your system is very inspirational for me and I would like to improve my piles and increase the temperature like you do.

Please would you mind giving me some more details ?

When you add horse manure, what is in the manure ?

Because I have 2 types of manure : pure horse poop (fresh apples only) and also manure made of poop, wood chips and pee, straw and hay.

When piled, I noticed that the pure poop does not get hot at all, nevertheless that's where the worms prefer to be.

The manure with peed wood chips and apples of poop gets hot when piled, but I fear that 6" of it spread on a wide surface won't get that hot considering the winter temperatures. Caught between the cold bed underneath, and with the cold atmosphere above, I guess the heat will disappear quickly.

I'm considering spreading the poop apples first, then mulching them with peed manure, then mulching with hay and straw.

By the way, is it hay you're using, or straw ? Because you write hay, but on the photos it looks like straw.

Please don't consider my questions as judgemental, they're not, on the contrary ! I didn't succeed in writing them gracefully so as for them to not sound so harsh ;-)

Nexev,

Thanks for the link, indeed it was interesting, although if vermicomposting becomes a usual activity in jail, then I won't bother with respecting the law any longer ;-)

I'm glad there's a new orca in San Diego, I guess the pools are quite large if orcas reproduce in them. I hope you enjoy your visit and seeing the 2 babies, yours and the orca's ;-)

Yes, try and bring back some whales' and dolphins' poop, full of micronutrients from the sea though wetter than a wrung sponge !

@ Nexev One of the things that is hard to understand is the reduction of worm food, in both volume AND weight, when tit becomes compacted castings. I have found that my completely finished sifted castings weigh 5-6 lbs per gallon. Based on experience (BOE) I estimate it would take about 50lbs of hydrated manure to produce this gallon. Where does the weight go??? Me thinks evaporation and sustaining worm life.
Re: production rates, who knows. Lots of guesswork on my part about actual timeframes and worm biomass, which is constantly changing. High casting production rates are achieved in well managed flow-thru bins.. My beds were made for vermiculture to handle the specific task of immediately reducing daily additions of pure fresh horse manure. It really helps keep the fly population and smell down and the immediate use means no re-hydration from my drought-stressed well. Water goes thru the horse and some is recaptured for the worm herd. Castings are the byproduct.
I had not seen this manual you linked before or heard of the program. Great idea! Nearly all prisons waste a TREMENDOUS amount of compostable food scrap and bedding material. There are many prisons, and most have gardens. Lots of useful materials, and manpower to......... count worms.

Barbararose asks "Are any of the inmates on this forum ? " No internet access in prison I don't think.

Francoise, very good specific questions. I'll try to answer and ask again if your not clear on something. That is the reason we are all here!
This carpet bed was built-up and maintained as I described above. I used mostly pure fresh horse manure, added 2"-4" deep per feeding. Apples only. Sometimes I would add some hay OR straw sprinkled on top to cover the poop, but usually not. Hay is considered food and straw as bedding, but worms don't care. I would feed again when the material was black and fluffy. This would take about a week usually. I would "pocket feed" the bed, dividing it into 6 or more sections in my mind ;) This method seemed to add about 5-10F to the bed above ground temperature, as long as it didn't get TOO much rain.
When I brought the temp up to 114F a few weeks back, I used manure from the local rodeo grounds. This manure was aged since July, dry and mixed with some hay. It was well re- hydrated from rain when I piled it up on the bed. I was given a bale of hay (not straw) which had gotten wet and moldy. The hay was hot when I covered the manure with full 4" leafs. This was then covered with carpet. In the photo above, a hay leaf below the 'shrooms is covered with casts, but still mostly intact below.
Your manure mixed with the bedding will add more heat for sure. More compost mass equals more heat for longer.. If you have good size open bins, I don't think you will hurt the squirm. Just don't mix it into the bed, only on top. Experiment and have fun. I have found worms to be very forgiving outside. Prepare to have many more mouths to feed!

Good luck!!!

Ha Francoise, I told The Daughter this morning to take a bag to work with her and sweep me up some whale poo. She laughed and told me she didnt think it worked like that.

She then went on to explain she would take us behind the scenes and show us the fiter system... at that point I interjected "thats where we get it, I'll bring a bag" :)

Reading through the last few posts I was thinkin what lucky horses. These folks are feedin em nothin but Apples then it dawned on me what Horse Apples were. I keep tellin The Wife this is blonde not gray and that almost proves it.

Pete, as this sinks in one thing that is obvious proof of what you are saying is the way you can keep burying scraps in a bin without it ever over filling. there is some impressive reduction going on there. Guess I am just gonna have to expand the worm plans and the food for them too.

We grew some spaghetti squash this year and they did quite well. I wonder how these and other winter squash will be received by the worms. Figure they will need whacked in half at least but figure those will make for a good food source to carry through next winter after the pumpkins have all gone south.

These are gonna be some seriously spoiled worms here.

YAY for figuring out posting photos, mendopete!

Paul

Deleted duplicate post.

This post was edited by pskvorc on Thu, Dec 11, 14 at 21:42

YAY for figuring out duplicate posting, Paul!

chuckiebtoo

I'm starting to 'evolve'. This post will be my first attempt at providing a 'useful link'.

This video is from a company trying to harness the energy of compost heat. I stumbled upon this and make no endorsement of the company. I thought of Paul when I saw the bathtub in the snow.

Here is a link that might be useful: compost heat

Great thread, but perhaps we should sometimes distinguish what types of worm "bins" we're talking about.

For instance, my main efforts concentrate on plastic tote-type bins suitable for indoor worming while sometimes peeps post about worm bins like those being discussed in this thread.

I have both types, and there are some difference...subtle and not so.... that maybe should be mentioned sometimes.

Anyway, very good and interesting thread.

Chuckiebtoo

Chuckie, I have thought the same thing. The direction that has taken me is the outdoor open bin type system. I dont even think I will mess with the hardware cloth bottom Pete uses because we dont have quite the in ground carnivores to warrant the extra effort here in the desert. Kind of think along the line of outbreed the predators, sure this is probably going to end up with a new problem to solve but for the start should be fine.

Taking the idea folks are doin things in different situations is a great one none the less. BTW, saw a COW at Seaworld in a brush area... was pretty cool and yes I opened it up to take a peek. Didnt see a single worm, I dont think they really take appropriate care of it. I was impressed with the quality of the plastic trays and think that might be a good kickstarter if the focus was for the most inexpensive plastic molded tray that could be produced for vermy folks.

A cow at seaworld ? I would have thought that with all those interesting dolphins and orcas nobody would give a rat's behind for a simple cow. And yes the cow was indeed pretty cool to allow you to open it up (apples and cows, aren't we both blonde ?)

Mendopete, the worming geek who can post photos AND links, thank you very much for your answers. I had to think long why your systems work better than mine when they seem so similar. I guess it has to do with rain because we had a lot here. Pure apples don't seem to make any difference in temperature. But I've asked Santa for a thermometer because perhaps I can't feel the difference with my hands and there's a slight one. I was so disappointed that I've tried to water with warm water from the shower but the heat is quickly lost so it's doing more bad than good to the poor worms, them being sent in a tropical island and back in sucking winter in a matter of minutes. Not to mention how silly I felt carrying hot water around the garden for the worms.

Chuck, raising worms inside is really difficult, they seem to be so fragile whereas outside they are real strong. When I started I was so worried for an epidemic to kill them all at once, and no vet to call for worms, and I was always checking on them, as soon as I got up and last thing before sleeping. Their well being was slowly gnawing my brain, guess that's what happens when kids leave old mom all alone with worms.

Outside I just add manure and vegetable waste and they multiply. And I can't check on them because they're everywhere, so they do their life and I do mine and it's a lot less psychologically overwhelming ;-)

The lessons you gave about vermicomposting and that I read and enjoyed a lot, they gave very good advices, as everything you post, which makes me laugh too, which is the cherry on the compost bin. I learnt a lot and tried to extrapolate some knowledge to apply it outside. Those lessons were real good, it's a pity they got lost everywhere mixed up among other threads in the forum.

I think it's a very good idea that Pete and Nexev tell about their experiment because I searched on the web before releasing my worms outside, and everything I read would say NO ! Now we have here Pete's and Nexev's testimonies, with photos, and some people living in temperate areas can feel confident enough to do the same experiment.

In an ideal world we would have free and easy access to DNA tests and we could have tested the DNA of the original worms and now of the free worms in our gardens, just to be scientifically sure whether or not they're related. But then in an ideal world everyone would be vermicomposting and there would be so many worms around and so many people interested in talking about worms and perhaps we would be raising rolly pollys or millipedes in inside bins just to be the weirdos.

Chuckie, you are absolutely right about the differences between smaller closed worm systems that most use, and larger open outdoor systems I use. Big difference!. I have hesitated for several years to start a thread on this subject. I was afraid someone with a smaller system, such as a plastic tote, may cook their squirm. Using compost to intentionally heat a small system would likely cause disaster. My worm systems are nearly "bullet-proof" with regards to overheating by overfeeding.

" Kind of think along the line of outbreed the predators" Nexev, that may work, but an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I have somewhat taken that approach, but have also witnessed the destruction of a damned mole! I can withstand the hit with my stock, but it could set you back pretty good. Your biggest critter challenge may be those mice. The mole ate several pounds fairly quickly. And you had me for a minute with your seaworld cow....... Apples and cows:)

Francoise, I NEVER thought that I would ever be called a geek. My phone is as dumb as me and has a rotary dial! I do kinda like the sound of wormin' geek though. Got a ring to it! Sounds a little better than poop-brain Pete, poopologist.
You will get MORE heat with the manure mixed with the stall bedding vrs. pure manure. Now that your beds have cooled, pure manure apples may have to be deep to get the bed to warm up. More mass creates more heat. As long as your worm system has an open bottom things should be fine for the herd. Compost/manure heats up slowly allowing the worms to move to where they are most comfortable.

If I had not overfed this bed and created some heat, the bed would have cooled to 55-60F. My experience is worms would have gotten lethargic and quit reproducing. I Think that this little overfeeding trick may give me more worms in the spring than I would otherwise have.
I will attempt to explain the logic. For sake of argument, lets assume the carpet bed has 100lbs of worms currently. Lets also assume that the 100lbs contain 60,000 adult breeders, and 40,000 juveniles and babies. Also assume there are 20,000 cocoons, which will become 40,000 worms when they hatch. If the bed becomes "dormant" due to temperature, I would have 100,000 breeder and 40,000 babies that hatch-out in the spring..... 140,00 total worms in April.
Now assume that the heat I added keeps the bed active for an additional 2 months. In that time the breeders may have left an additional 120,000 cocoons (2ea.) Some of the juveniles have become breeders and left another 10,000 cocoons. The 20,000 cocoons that would have been dormant hatch, adding 40,000 more worms. In the spring, I would have 140,000 breeder worms and 260,000 babies....400,000 worms total!

Lots of "wild ass guess" work here. I hope my confusing post sheds some light on what I think is happening. I may be totally wrong, killed many worms and all the cocoons in the hot area, and set the bed back. But I don't think so.

Poop-Brain Pete, Poopologist and Wormin; Geek

After an unusually mild,wet fall, we finally got our first frost last week. The past six days have been hard frost, and it only warms up to the 40F's in the daytime. Decided to take the 'post thermometer and probe around.
I have 7 different worm systems going, and all are on the ground. The ground temp is currently 41F. All beds were about 43F, except the carpet bed. It was at 52F in the area I heat- treated, gradually cooling to 43F on the perimeter. After two months I still have +9F of heat gain in this bed compared to my others. The fire isn't out, but almost.

I found out the carpet bed has another heat source. The heat-treated area (plus a little more) is covered with some heavy-duty recycled material used as a tarp to keep out rain. It is dark forest green in color. I've noticed that there always seems to be lots of worms clinging to the damp underside of the tarp and on the carpet.

It was 30F when I looked this morning, and I would have thought the worms would be below in the warmer 52F bed. But lethargic worms were on and just below the tarp. This had me scratching my old bald head!

Around 11am, after the sun had hit the bed, I looked again. There were lots of worms on top of the bed, in and below the carpet. The hay leaf's placed on top of the manure are about 50% intact, and felt warm to my hand (no thermometer this time). The dark tarp had collected heat into the bed. This solar heat, along with the still decomposing hay created a daytime 'sauna' resort for the herd! I saw a nice mix of adults juveniles, and babies. They were much more active than earlier today.

Good luck and have a happy wormin' new year!

Thank you for this thread, Pete, although I never succeeded in raising the temperature as much as you do without a thick layer of manure !

Same here, rainy and warm till Christmas now dry and cold.

The worms are slow and deep down. I go on spreading veggies waste from the kitchen and manure. In spring, they'll wake up to a huge banquet !

Happy new year to you and your outdoors worms !

15F here last night, still waiting for some of the pipes to thaw to assess all the damage.

I dont understand how folks live where it gets really cold, I mean bitter below zero stuff without the windchill and days that never go above freezing.

Supposed to be warming some from here for the next week or so.

10 weeks to last frost.

Has anyone tried clear plastic sheeting? I'm kinda curious how a bed with some sun exposure would heat up this way. I am just starting vc all over again, after releasing my herd into the garden a couple years back. So, all i have are a couple bins in the garage to increase the population a bit before starting an outdoor bed when it warms up. No subjects for my own experimentation just yet. These indoor bins are a pain to me, which is why I dumped in the garden the first time.

Ray, did you have a look to your worms after you dumped them in the garden ? It would be interesting to know whether you can find them or their kids around.

I've never tried to cover my piles (beds evokes some order and organization and is not adapted for the mess I've done) (although my piles were in my brain a permaculture project of beds but my arms never succeeded in reproducing the perfection of the mental picture) because on the compost forum, the posters say covering piles blocks air exchanges.

Also sun destroys polyethylen, and I wouldn't like migrations of chemicals in the piles. If chemicals leach from alimentary plastic to our food and drinks, I can just imagine that it's gonna be worse from plastic made for any industrial use. No regulation there to prevent any leaching of chemicals.

With PLA, plastic made from corn and which is compostable, chemicals might be less of a problem, but then the carbon and water prints of PLA seem to be too huge for the end product to be considered a good ecological alternative.

But then I feel guilty sometimes just to be alive and breathing so don't take my warnings too seriously :-)

They seem to be doing fine. I have only found 3 "native" worms over 10 acres in 2 years, so I am fairly sure the polulation I see now came from my herd.

As for the plastic, yeah, I realize consuming plastic is bad and plastic degrades. But, the trace amounts from where/how I use it poses a risk to me far less than the risk I assume from my 40 mile drive out to the garden. Just last night, Bambi and a dozen friends were frolicking next to and across the road as I came home at dusk.