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nexev

Worms in the Wild

nexev - Zone 8b
9 years ago

Many folks here raise captive worms for the purpose of composting to produce castings presumably to be used in the garden or other plants. This lends itself to a specific worm as in Eisenia fetida (EF, red wiggler) that is well suited to this task.

The drawback for us was that this particular worm is usually thought to not do so well in the lawn or garden so I chose to get Eisenia hortensis (EH, european night crawler) with the intent of establishing this worm around the property in an attempt to improve the soil over time across a few acres.

Our current soil character is sandy loam heavy on the sand in a fairly coarse variety with minimal organic content so moisture retention is one of the biggest challenges. Worms are also non existent in any variety other than imports and it is obvious that to create a healthy soil we need these guys working on our side. Organic material (OM) and ensuring some level of moisture is the bare minimum requirements for keeping wild worms alive and in parts of our property that is pretty much all they get.

Every morning we make chicken salad, this one is different though. We collect greens for our hens, hence 'salad' for the chickens. As winter has come on the greens are getting scarce so it is mostly weeds or clumps of grass that have popped up in the border of the lawn. This morning I pulled up some of this grass with a fist sized clump of roots and sand, shaking it a little to loose some of the soil an impressively sized EH fell to the ground. This fella was about the diameter of a pencil and maybe four inches long, practically no movement from him/her at all as it was barely 40F out after a low last night of 22F. Back in the hole and covered with a few inches of soil, maybe this one will go on to make many many more.

It is always thrilling to find them when disturbing the ground and I am surprise at how often this happens already considering it is little more than six months now since we purchased them. Last projected frost is about 11 weeks away then we will know just how well they will fare over winter here and in a variety of conditions as we have some ground that has been well mulched, some that is sparse and of course the bed where they are winterized with straw and well fed. Can hardly wait to begin uncovering things and of course for everything to start growing again creating OM for that next cycle.

So, who else cultivates worms with the purpose of turning them out into the wild to improve soil for plants and trees? Vermicomposting in place I suppose.

Comments (39)

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    9 years ago

    Not I. At one point when I was just beginning and had gotten my compost worm herd size from microscopic to "Hey look, I actually have some worms!" I gave away half of them to someone who wanted to get started. I was shocked a month or so later when I inquired as to how the worms were doing. She casually replied she had just recently stopped vermicomposting and put them in her compost pile. To her they were just some worms. To me they were something more. Mine were not the type of worms that are in the ground worms.

  • 11otis
    9 years ago

    I have volunteer worms in my back yard composters and they can stay there. However, I would not release worms from my worm bin into the composter or into the garden. I'd feel like sending them into their death having Robins and other birds scratching and pecking around plants in my garden.

  • chuckiebtoo
    9 years ago

    And moles/voles too otiseleven.

    Also, we build an environment that is way better than the real world. Capable of way more of the stuff we want: eating, happiness, sex, pregnancy, baby worms and poop.

    Other than that, chunk em out into the real world.

    chuckiebtoo

  • mendopete
    9 years ago

    Worms in your soil is a good thing. As long as they are able to survive and procreate, they will be of great benefit.

    The problem I see is the wild worms may have trouble finding another "like-minded" wild worm to party with. If that fat Euro you found was in your bin, it would be warmer, better fed, and maybe breeding weekly.

    I think of a prospector in your desert. It would be a lonely existence until he travels to town for supplies.

    In your worm bed, you have created a nice desert oasis. Seems to me that you would be better off keeping the worms in the oasis to breed faster. Once the density is such that you can't keep up with the feeding, then start releasing some.

    Nexev, as a worm farmer who always tries to think outside the bin, I appreciate what you are trying to do. Good luck and keep us posted.

    "Born To Be Wild" Steppenwolf, 1968.

  • nexev - Zone 8b
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Equinox, as long as she maintains her compost pile she is still vermicomposting, just not quite as intensively. (note, Firefox spellcheck says vermicomposting is spelled wrong and offered up overcompensating).

    Otis, one more step in the cycle. I say coffins should be perforated ;)

    CB, thats sensible enough. Well provided for just about anything does better than when having to scratch out a living. The chuck em out part though is one thing that has conflicting views especially for EFs. Most say they will not survive in the wild but then they have to come from somewhere to show up in manure piles.

    Pete, I have had that same thought on where the original worms would have been best suited. In the compost bin I can see they are doing well and reproducing where in the lawn I just dont know. This last one I found was quite large and likely one of the original pioneers. As a guess there was maybe 1000 in the lawn 1000 in the bin 500 in the greenhouse and the remaining 500 scattered around 4 to 10 here and there at trees and plants where there is mulched ground.

    Pretty certain the numbers would increase much faster if they were all put into the bin as you suggest but then those who do survive and reproduce in the other locations will be spawning future generations tailored to that particular microenviroment which is something that will have to happen eventually anyhow.

    For my part it is satisfying to find the odd wanderer or three when upsetting the ground this early in the game especially when there are small ones in the mix as they have been around long enough that even little ones from the OGs would be full grown by now so anything smaller means natives.

    A local market farmer had 3yo asparagus crowns a few weeks ago. Nice big crowns with masses of roots 2' long. We planted three rows about 15' long and are looking forward to at least some small harvest from these in the spring. Long term on this bed is the three year outlook when it will be dug up and divided. If I am vermisuccessful this should be a fun chore harvesting both crowns and worms for the bed expansion. Have not added any worms there yet but will be placing one of the feeding buckets there seeded from the bin in the spring.

    Born Free - Kid Rock 2010

  • chuckiebtoo
    9 years ago

    Here's an experiment I did with 4 raised veggie beds a few years ago:
    2 beds laced with EF & fed the same things as my worm bins.
    2 beds laced with VC from the worm bins.

    The 2 beds laced with VC from bins vastly outproduced the 2 beds with worms. GREATLY outproduced them.

    Reason: ideal everything in the bins=greater production of worms=greater production of VC.

    It really is a no-brainer BUT that's not to say using both methods after your bins are maxed out is still good.

    I have worms all over my yard and excellent stuff happens...just not AS excellent.

    Worms loosed in the property will lure those damned moles/voles. Be forewarned of that.

    One way to look at vermicomposting bins: they keep mole/vole food (your worms) from luring them to your property.

    cb2

  • 11otis
    9 years ago

    The following is not to criticize anybody, just my thoughts triggered by reading Nevex's posts.
    I imagine the worms inhibiting my black plastic composter in the back yard started with the start of the composter. Once the bottom content has compacted it's hard for new worms to get to the top 18". So, the worms in there now, are (mostly) descendants from those pioneers, breeding, multiplying and dying as winter comes and goes. Also because I keep feeding the composter with whatever is not good enough for my worm bins.
    Compared to this, my garden is definitely less favourable (Note: I don't have a lawn so cannot say what would have happened there) or else, the shaded areas with mulch of fallen leaves should be teeming with worms. And I seldom find worms when digging in the garden. Only the VERY rare ones around dandelions roots. And I don't think we have voles/moles in our area, only squirrels, mice and rats, I think.

    I wish Nevex and others releasing worms in their garden lots of luck. Poor worms :(

    This post was edited by otis11 on Sat, Dec 27, 14 at 16:21

  • 11otis
    9 years ago

    ""I think of a prospector in your desert. It would be a lonely existence until he travels to town for supplies."" That is if he has a truck or a mule. Otherwise, on foot he might be dead from thirst and exhaustion halfway there, not even knowing where the town is. :)
    (and no GPS) :(

    This post was edited by otis11 on Sun, Dec 28, 14 at 2:13

  • chuckiebtoo
    9 years ago

    ""I think of a prospector in your desert. It would be a lonely existence until he travels to town for supplies."" That is if he has a truck or a mule. Otherwise, on foot he might be dead from thirst and exhaustion halfway there, not even knowing where the town is. :)

    WOW! Impressed ain't the word. I gotta rethink my whole beliefs about wormin' based on otis11's musings. Maybe we've come to an epiphany?

    chuckiebtoo

  • nexev - Zone 8b
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Yes, it would be tough to imagine the castings of a small amount of worms could offer up the nutrient value of thousands or even tens of thousands that had been working for months.

    Town is where the worm is.

    Cant see the need for a worm to move far as long as there is OM and moisture, a good example would be our comfrey bed. The comfrey bed is about 20' squared and was put to rest with 3" of steer manure and 3" of ramial wood chips for the winter. Before this mulch was put down I was finding worms under the comfrey plants when rooting around to plant garlic or pullin weeds. These plants got just a few worms each early summer and they are reproducing there. Now that it is covered in a thick mulch they have some level of warmth for the winter and the whole of that area to spread into. Cant imagine that they arent squirmin through there shouting 'freedom' at the tops of their lungs.

    Comfrey is a nitrogen fixer, that is it takes nitrogen out of the air and fixes it into the soil. That means it is available there for the microbes that munch the carbon bits and in turn are food for the worms.

    Thing is having my verd established in the environment where there benefits are wanted they will not only help out this years plants but plants for years to come. One other benefit of having the worms working on the farm is the tilling they do day in and day out.

    As much as you fellas cant grasp some oddball such as myself growin worms to turn em loose I dont get sole reliance on a prison society.

    Time is gonna be the test here and you all may well be right in that worms should be caged like animals with no reason to be in the wild though I suspect things will be more towards a balance of uses that includes both concentrated attention along with far flung neglect.

  • mendopete
    9 years ago

    Your doing great Nexev, keep it up!

    Dogma defined:
    dog÷ma noun \ÃÂdoÃÂg-mÃÂ, ÃÂdäg-\ : a belief or set of beliefs that is accepted by the members of a group without being questioned or doubted

    "My Way" Frank Sinatra 1967

  • chuckiebtoo
    9 years ago

    The absolute one thing each and every one of us who, for whatever reason, gets into this art of worm science has in common is individuality and independent thinking.

    If that weren't so, we would all be slinging chemicals all over our plants and grass (hopefully after putting our pets and children out of harms way), bagging great composting materials for garbage pickup, and wondering why that old fool next door with the fantastic yard has that big pile of rotting stuff piled up in the corner next to his "worm shed".

    Because this is an art, and the worms are so resilient, it can be done in many ways. Successfully. Some ways are more successful and after doing them for a number of years (15 in my case) a wormer will find the most successful way for him depending on his location, needs, and desires.

    The one constant truth: Horse manure makes it impossible to not be ultra successful. I believe horses were put on Earth to supply worms with you-know-what.

    chuckiebtoo

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    9 years ago

    Nexev "Equinox, as long as she maintains her compost pile she is still vermicomposting, just not quite as intensively. (note, Firefox spellcheck says vermicomposting is spelled wrong and offered up overcompensating)." I agree. Also, I only have hobbies that spell check hates.

  • FrancoiseFromAix
    9 years ago

    What are we compensating for, I wish Firefox spellcheck could explain, all the threads I read here show people having a lot more fun than those broke consumerists in the malls.

    I've been very worried about voles and gophers, those nasty wild mice and rats that dig holes around. Before having piles of compost full of worms I used to see their hills, now I see none, the dogs caught a few of them but perhaps they hid under the piles and now Chuck has me worrying a lot.

    I did as Nexev did along the same line of thought and Nexev explained it very rationally. I think we'll see results in spring, it will be interesting to dig around to discover what's happening under those layers of rotting stuff.

    I put worms in the wild because I don't have much time and I rely on them to do some tilling in my hard clay. Also it seemed to me that it would save time to put manure and other rotting stuff directly where the plants are or will be, rather then moving stuff around several times.

    As for birds, I never see them on the piles, there are magpies who ate my cherries when pink last year and they are a pain trying to get all the food they can grab in the garden, but dig in the straw to reach the worms even them they don't do it.

    Chuck, I don't know if you realize that although very funny and humorous, your posts are also very impressive. You write with knowledge and authority, I wouldn't want you to misunderstand this is not criticism on the contrary, but I guess you're a guy whom I would never dare to contradict. I wish I had the same aura so that I could boss around everyone ;-) Anyway I'm quite worried now that you think that it's not a very good idea to have worms outside.

    Happy new year everyone, I wish you all a lot of happiness worming in bins or in the wild !

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    9 years ago

    As usual you are cracking me up FrancoiseFromAix none. GardenWeb decided I was a 10. But I just changed that to 6a. This seems to be something new the last week or so at GardenWeb. Somebody must be play God and messing with all of the forum controls. Next thing we know, like Star Trek they will be using us as guinea pigs trying to transport us here or there. I fear they may leave half of me one place and move the other half over there creating not one, or two, but three or four of me! Maybe that would work for increasing our verds. Better than cutting them in half, bug eyes.

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    9 years ago

    chuckiebtoo, what does z8 mean?

  • chuckiebtoo
    9 years ago

    Fran......Great idea to have worms outside if that's what you want. Just saying that they don't do well out there if the weather is not to their liking.

    EQ2.....zone 8

    Fran......yes, I do know that my remarks are sometimes a little.....uh, inane, but we are, after all, playing with worms here.

    cb2

    watermelon bin

  • rayzone7
    9 years ago

    I have the same sandy soil and the same idea in mind. This winter, I have worm bins in the garage for population growth and i am going to dump them into a large outdoor bed when it warms up a bit. Probably starting with next fall's garden, I will use a couple handfulls of VC/worms/cocoons in each planting hole while keeping the outdoor bed going.

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    9 years ago

    chuckiebtoo what a Happy New Year Photo! Toss some shredded bedding in there for me please.

  • FrancoiseFromAix
    9 years ago

    EQ2, well you crack me up too, you just say anything that goes through your brain as only Americans do, here people are snobbish tight butts and they look down on you when you're spontaneous. First time I went to the US, the guy sat next to me in the plane started explaining how arbitrary systems of length were, and if whales had had the good idea of all being the same length then humanity could have chosen to measure in "whales" instead of miles or kilometers, and add dolphins for shorter lengths and so on.

    That day I got why the silicon valley, Hollywood, and the NASA were all in the US.

    As for you being split in 2 zones, well I guess you're being punished for being EQ2 instead of simply EQ. Perhaps GW's god is french and doesn't like much iconoclasts, and hate this vermiforum where people coin words and have disgusting silent crawlers as pets. On top of that GW's god being in a capitalist society has to put up with us and our clicks to make money, and which forum could be more active and profitable than one where people need to "overcompensate" ?

    Just be thankful for not being EQ10 or your head would be spinning in an endless twirl of zones.

  • nexev - Zone 8b
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Ray, what type of worms? I went with the EH because it seemed like they were more suitable and from what I have seen they do well in the soil as opposed to needing a more OM only environment. Even more suitable might be earthworms rather than composting worms though I think most earthworms are too sensitive to disturbing their burrows as would happen in the garden.

    The great thing about sandy soil is that it is probably the easiest bad condition to improve. Already have great drainage and air, biggest challenge is holding moisture as you can add nutrient easily but if the water falls through any good stuff you add just washes down with it. That is why I am going the ramial route with loads of wood chips. This composted with manure and any other OM we can gather up will be a long lasting addition to the sand to hold water.

    Also considering giving water crystals a shot though need to read more on them. They are fairly reasonable these days at $10 or so a lb and one lb having the ability to hold 50 gallons of water. Only negative I can think of is the possibility of heaving but then should be able to maintain that with dosage.

    Francoise, You, Pete and I... we could form a free the worm movement. Have teeshirts made with a guy in a trenchcoat :) Or maybe a kilt? How about you Ray? In for joining up?

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    9 years ago

    Water crystals are supposed to last 7 to 9 years in the soil. I do not think they last that long. I have used some. They seem to quickly melt into the soil. It is the same absorbent material as in diapers.

  • rayzone7
    9 years ago

    Nexev-mostly EF. They seem to be doing fine from the last time I dumped them. I also have some Euros from a couple bait counter cups I put into a bin. Finally, I am hauling the garden soil from my house out to my sandbox in the country. It is teeming with whatever species are out there natively. They are why I got interested in VC. Lots of alamama jumpers and some redworm variety.

    Sandy soil isnt bad to work with. Unlike the so-compacted-cant-even-get-a-shovel-in-clay at my house. This is one of the reasons I am tearing out the raised beds and leveling or hauling the soil they contained.

    Water crystals sound interesting, but I have well over an acre in various state of gardening. I cant imagine what that would cost me!

  • FrancoiseFromAix
    9 years ago

    "I can't imagine what that would cost me" Well I can, an arm and a leg, and then Ray, how could you haul soil from here to there ?

    Nexev great idea, I'm in for a "free the worms" movement ! And then people vermicomposting in the cities would feel guilty and offer us garden owners both their worms and their kitchen scraps ;-)

    About water crystals : I don't know what they are, but I used to sell acrylic sealant and our suppliers went through a shortage when the crystals started being used in diapers. Hence for me water crystals are linked to industrial products. So I would be very suspicious about the chemical impact of water crystals on the soil and worms. Nexev when you've read more, I'd like to read one of your well synthetized and structured summary.

    Alamama jumpers... I don't have them around, and as a mom I guess it's something I should be grateful for. I'm glad my climate is less humid and less warm than it is in Alabama so those jumpers can't survive here. I wouldn't like those long worms jumping at the throat of a poor old Mama ;-)

  • barbararose21101
    9 years ago

    Maybe biochar instead of polymer crystals ?

    "Use of polymers does not conserve water. Water loss through evapotranspiration was the same for all treatments. Extending the time between irrigations does not conserve water because more water has to be applied at the time of irrigation to recharge the container to full water-holding capacity. In this experiment, the polymer treatments had no effect on plant growth."

    Not saying this is the last word . . .
    just saying biochar might be better . . .
    Note: the test was in containers -- contra to your Freedom for Worms preference.

    Here is a link that might be useful: polymer test in California

  • nexev - Zone 8b
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks for the link Barbara and I will read it. The biochar was suggested to me by Equinox along with several other things to look into some time back. That certainly deserves greater exploration as it is quite long lasting.

    I do want to say that the mention above about water holding not being useful would have to depend on what is happening with that water and that would be mandated by soil type/condition. In a coarse sandy soil it just drops, so far and so fast that moments after applying to the surface it is no longer available for use there. If you have alkaline well water as we do the salts from the water will cling to the porous material raising the ph making that problem worse while the now filtered water is on its way back into the water table.

    Most generally water travels faster horizontally in the ground faster than vertically, again this is dependent on environment. We once drained our 10K gallon water storage tank and the surface water ran about 12 feet, that was through a 4 inch valve.

    Also for the transpiration that could be mitigated with a mulching so that the crystal could hold the water just below the surface. Common sense would tell me that mulch would act like a wick drawing moisture up and being porous offer lots of surface area for evaporation to steal the moisture from the ground. Practical application though has show us that this isnt the case at all. After mulching our fruit trees with wood chips our need to water even on the hottest and driest days of summer was greatly reduced.

    The concerns equinox on how long they would last in the soil at some useful level along with what Francois mentioned about them being an industrial product and what they might leave behind are what I would need to be comfortable with before I would even try them to see if the heaving would be an issue. I dont know if I will ever get around to this though it does seem like it has some potential for our specific soil type.

    Free The Worm - a sympathetic movement

  • mendopete
    9 years ago

    Nice melon bin! That is what I call happy wormin'!

    Good luck Ray. I had one tote bin when I started, and dumped it into my first worm cage. No regrets here. I have always, from the start, had a 'mother bin' for breeding. It is a safe, secure, mostly neglected 3'x5' bottomless wooden box with a lid. It gets kitchen scraps that chickens don't. It always has worms, and is used to stock other systems. Cover the bet.

    I want a free-the-worm tee shirt.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Going bottomless outdoors

  • nexev - Zone 8b
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Ha, that was funny Pete. Not what I was expecting but quite funny.

    Barbara, Saw this in the article you linked

    ______________________________________________
    Potential benefits to be achieved depend on soil texture. Coarse-textured soils with large pores tend to retain less water than finer-textured soils. Thus, the amount of water that may be retained by incorporating a polymer would be greater in coarse-textured soils than in fine-textured soils.
    ______________________________________________

    That pretty much sums up what I was saying above. For heavy soils not so good but for fast draining coarse soils could be of benefit. There was no mention at all of any adverse issues in adding polyacrylamides but the name alone gives me a bit of the willies. Will look for more on this later.

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    9 years ago

    My soil is like beach sand. I think oxygen eats the crystals. I believe it is a polymer that breaks down into nitrogen and carbon dioxide. Do not allow them onto the floor. They are slippery. Maybe a florist has ones that have gone past.

  • blakrab Centex
    9 years ago

    What's the biggest worm anyone has found?

    I've found one in the wild a foot long! 8o
    Any idea what species this is???

  • nexev - Zone 8b
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I have read some debate on whether using them would negate organic status Equinox. Sounded kind of silly to me to the point of if you store rainwater in plastic barrels would that have an effect? These are basically rain barrels that are stored in the ground.

    My concern is towards what they end up as and if it is nitrogen and CO2 then that doesnt sound so bad provided they are some excessive source of pollution, more so than say some organic matter breaking down that might be placed in the ground to get the same water holding characteristics.

    Sounds like you soil is close to mine. What I am doing for the garden beds is a single row of cinderblocks, 4 across and 8 long which makes for about a 5 x 10' bed. I am just laying these out on the sand then adding 6 inches or so of compost then planting in it. Between the beds I am spreading coarse wood chips for nice paths and to keep down weeds.

    We dont expect much for the first year but will keep them in cover crops any place they are not actively in garden and plan to add plenty of worms to them as we go. As winter progresses we are identifying those plants that will keep growing deep into our coldest nights so next year these will get special attention in the fall. Pretty much ran out of weeds already this year and the hens are not happy about it and next year we will have ten times as many so really working on that, fresh eggs are so good that once the verd is well enough established a share will be for them.

    Blakrab, thats one big wild worm. Doesnt look to have the girth I would expect from the types of nightcrawlers I have found in my younger days of seeking fish bait, more like an ordinary earthworm of impressive length. Try and find another and see if you get them to make nice nice. I dont think it is in the Eisnenia group of composting worms but would be fun to release in the garden.

    Free the worm - Been held down for too long

  • barbararose21101
    9 years ago

    "These are basically rain barrels that are stored in the ground."

    That's a stretch.
    The plastic rain barrel is a container.
    Depending on the quality of the plastic it is stable.
    It isn't interacting with the water -- unless . . .
    heated, or other chemicals are present.

    Futhermore lost that thought . . . oh . . .
    as for other stuff: be sure it is organic
    unless you want to defeat the work the worms have done.
    Do you know about "complete organic " fertilizer ?
    Steve Solomon is one of the gurus of this topic.
    More than one company sells his mix.

    FWIW I would never put polymer in soil of any kind.
    Already you are sensitive to this. At a minimum it is an incongruity.

    You want, I think, a thriving Food Soil Web. You have no way to know what those chemicals will do to the ecology of your garden. What about the mycelia ? What will the fungi feel ?
    Do you want to eat what grew there ?

    There are lots of water holding matter that are organic:
    besides biochar, wood chips (which use nitrogen and would help if pre composted) straw, composted grass cuttings, . . .
    wood shavings . . . Horse Manure . . . which has "fiber" cellulose plus bacteria and was composted by the horse.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Solomon's book

  • mendopete
    9 years ago

    I've been interested in biochar for awhile. I made some by crushing cowboy charcoal (PITA). It is pricey to buy at about $50 cu'. I've read that a cu' has the surface area of 1 acre! It's hard to find locally. I even considered getting a pallet full and becoming a distributer. Looked into building a home- made double-barrel furnace to make my own. Dreams... I do believe in it.

    The following is from biochar.info. Good reading.
    Origin of Biochar - Terra Preta

    'The technique of using charcoal to improve the fertility of soils originated in the Amazon basin at least 2500 years ago. The native Indians of the region would create charcoal and incorporate it in small plots of land from 1 - 80 hectares in size. Terra Preta, as it is known in this area of Brazil, remains highly fertile until today, even with little or no application of fertilizers. And this is in a region of the world known for its highly infertile soils.'

    edit to change the link

    Here is a link that might be useful: biochar.org

    This post was edited by mendopete on Sat, Jan 3, 15 at 15:04

  • nexev - Zone 8b
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Barbara, sure it was a stretch but that was the point. Certainly wouldnt argue the benefits of something I dont know about but wont dismiss it out of hand either. You have a compelling reason there with the unknowns as far as what might it react like with the soil web. The other very important part you mentioned is what might a plant bring up into the food you will eat.

    These are things I would have to be comfortable with before actually broadcasting this stuff. Thing is once it is there not much chance of getting it out short of removing the soil where it is.

    The Biochar as interesting as it is I just cant get my head around. While I dont mind effort for gains this seems like it would be a lot of trouble to set up and quite messy to process but then those perceptions may well be false.

    I have a 36" steel fire ring about 18" tall, could build a nice hot fire in there and burn it down to coal. Once there is a nice couple inches of hot coal in the bottom pack it full of wood chips and cover with a sheet of steel.

    If that would work it could make 10 cu ft of char coal fairly easily. Keeping it wet while handling would keep the dust down, just have to figure out a means of crushing it or would it even need to be crushed if it were chips to begin with?

    Hoping to get several loads of chips this year when the tree trimmers are back around, really missed out this last year as they did a lot of work out here before we got motivated on doing all we can to to improve our patch of sand.

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    9 years ago

    chuckiebtoo, imagine the fish he caught.

    Nexev, sort of like nuggets of rain. "Sounds like your soil is close to mine. What I am doing for the garden beds is a single row of cinderblocks, 4 across and 8 long which makes for about a 5 x 10' bed. I am just laying these out on the sand then adding 6 inches or so of compost then planting in it. Between the beds I am spreading coarse wood chips for nice paths and to keep down weeds." Sounds to me like a great plan to deal with sand. I did similar years ago but with old fashioned simple patio blocks which provide a 16 inch path and 4X4 foot beds. This is as tiny as possible. Too tiny. I totally agree with you raising the beds up 6 inches is really good because that is 6 less inches we have to reach to plant and harvest. Every year the ground gets farther away so every year a garden higher up from ground level sounds better and better. As time goes on wider paths seem wiser also. Especially in August when tomatoes form a jungle. Going to the 10 foot long bed like you have increases growing space and minimizes waste of a path. Your garden sounds like it will be a nice place to set a picnic table nearby. Not stepping on your growing surface will increase good stuff happening. I sometimes wonder if pathways should have weeds and let chickens roam. The garden walls would have to be how high for this to work? I would need short chickens. Have you seen where they put chicken wire over small sections of growing greens so the chickens can eat them but not decimate them? "will keep them in cover crops" I have actually harvested "weed" seeds. Edible weeds. The good thing is even if we have no seeds, we can always just rake over the garden and great things will grow. Magic! Maybe a couple of Hubbard squash would tide the chicks over until spring. In those gardens Ruth Stout's throw hay or leaves or grass clippings everywhere method you might find you like. It certainly beat the weeds for me. I felt like I was winning the weed war. The best thing about your 5X10 bed is organization and a peaceful look is always there. You probably use square foot gardening to make it look great! It brings satisfying order to even chaotic planting. Note you may not need both 15 yellow squash and 15 zucchini plants. One of each may be enough. 9 square feet if you don't mind walking around them aggressively attacking the walking paths during August. "Free the worm - Been held down for too long" I can actually relate. I often eat with raw food vegans and remark on how vegetables feel pain and have feelings too. Meanies!

  • PRO
    equinoxequinox
    9 years ago

    chuckiebtoo, "EQ2.....zone 8" Now I feel stupid. I would have never figured that out.

    RayZone7, tell me you are holding a few back to continue the population.

    blakrab, I do not want to live on the same planet as that worm.

    mendopete, I got my Cowboy charcoal from shhhh, Walmart. The large pieces I used for grilling. The dust and duds for the worm bin. I think of the charcoal as vermi bin coral reef. Surface area for things to happen and like certain English muffins, nooks and crannies are the name of the game here. Think a barren ocean bottom. Bring in a shipwreck or legs of an oil rig and things start to happen. Surface area and nooks and crannies! Exciting things. I think I paid between 5 and 9 dollars for a bag larger than I wanted to lift. An average size barbecue charcoal bag. May be enough to start experiments.

    Nexev I have made tiny amounts of biochar and do not think my neighbors have appreciated it. Tiny lot size. I liked my results but did not have the best system. I probably can not get a system that works well enough. If neighbors ask what you are doing while making biochar... make something up because they will never understand. If you say it is voodoo they will go away and stop asking stupid questions. Perhaps your neighbors are at a better distance away. I jammed a can with cardboard and bones and sea shells to turn into biochar. I think it made lovely biochar. My neighbors probably not so much so I did not make any more and instead look longingly at Cowboy charcoal.

  • barbararose21101
    9 years ago

    Just as all vermicompost and vermicastings are not equal,
    all biochars are not equal. Homemade biochar is different from commercial biochar in several ways. I won't go into detail here, but am willing to discuss via private message.
    A variable in the discussion is emisions and climate change.
    Another variable is whether one is improving what one burns.
    For example, Buckstarchaser likes wood chips as they are and believes burning them for char is not an improvement.
    In a way it's like is horse manure just as good before the worms eat it as after ?

    I'm looking for my favorite video on making biochar with a TLUD. Later.

    Probably I'll bump our previous thread titled biochar.

  • nexev - Zone 8b
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Equinox, rain nuggets... I like that. Remember watching Mels SqFt gardening show over 20 years ago. Always enjoyed it and felt he had the right idea on a lot of things. Have always like the boxed beds myself, not only bringing them but as you mention keeps not only you from walking on them but also anyone who might wander into the garden it is obvious as to where to walk. The wide paths are a must and since space is not much of a limiting factor for us the only drawback is more area to maintain.

    We had 2 yellow crookneck and 6 Black Zucchini (5 of them were planted very late in the year) and we could have used much more ourselves not to mention sharing with family and the hens so there will be many more this year. Larger more sprawling plants like pumpkin and melons will go outside of the beds in widely spaced hills where they will have plenty of room to spread.

    After seeing the destruction the hens can wreak in short order we have decided they are not allowed in the garden at all. Have thought about the protected plantings for the hens but really for the most part it would be too much trouble for the little they would get.

    Barbara, going to go read the BioChar thread now. The use of woodchips instead of char seem like two different animals with the char having much more surface area and practically everlasting nature yet little or no remaining OM they would be more complimentary rather than alternatives.