Return to the Vines Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

Posted by true-blue Montreal, Canada Z4 (My Page) on
Fri, Jul 25, 14 at 14:02

I have an Ipomoea nil, Berry Ice. It has been blooming on and off, beautifully since 1 month.

Yesterday, the one & only flower didn't open. It was around 3 inch long. And today it is shrivelling.

I had a similar problem with Xiong's last year but on a larger scale.

Is this something that happens with this type of morning glory?


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

There are various reasons why they might fail to open...not enough water could be one of the simplest reasons...

The plants sometimes need to be more mature,. there could be a Phosphorus or Potassium deficiency...bloom booster might help...

Did you use any Epsom salts...great for magnesium BUT too much magnesium WILL impair absorption / utilization of potassium...

Biologically active soil often helps in ways which are not fully clarified as of yet , but trace minerals are thought to be a factor....

Infections are also a possible cause of bloom drop...langbeinite (Sul-Po-Mag) is a natural pro-biotic mineral containing both sulfur and potassium in a good ration and this could help with any potassium deficiencies and infections due to the sulfur content...

Kelp meal is an excellent source of Pro-Biotic trace minerals...

Let us know how the plants progress...


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

Ron, thanks a lot for the detailed response.

Berry Ice is planted in a 15 gallon pot. I believe there are 3 vines in it. I sowed the seeds on April 10. I saw buds by June 24th and the first "flush" started by July 2nd. One flower a day, sometimes 2.

The pot is plastic, light blue in color, in a part shade location. (morning sun) The plant systematically wilts soon after the sun hits the leaves. Whether it's cool or hot.

I feed it weekly with foliage pro 9-3-6 ONLY, and water it regularly. Some of the lower leaves have yellowed and dropped. However, the rest of the vine, is lush and healthy and full of buds.

Summer has been more on the cool side this year, however, we had a heat wave a week ago.

Wednesday, we had thundershowers so 1 bloom rotted. The 2nd bloom was ready by Thursday but it refused to open. Or, let's say, it refused to unfold. I think the tip was open by 1/2" but that was all. The pleated petals was surely a magnificent sight to my eyes.

This morning however, a new bud unfolded completely.


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

Last year's Xiong however, was planted in a gravely earth, afternoon sun. I started my plants late June. I had several other Ipomoea nil, in the same location, but only Xiong's buds failed to unfold.

The fact that Berry Ice is similar in color, made me wonder...


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

true-blue - You mentioned :

"foliage pro 9-3-6 ONLY, and water it regularly. Some of the lower leaves have yellowed and dropped."

The NPK ration is low in phosphorus and Bloom Boosters typically emphasize the phosphorus for a reason...

You noted that the color of the blooms on the plants in question is similar and I would say that is a good observation, because similar strains or cultivars can often behave similarly...

The weather conditions certainly are a factor influencing how individual plants respond , but so is what is going on in the rhizosphere...

I think you should proceed however you see most befitting your own sense of direction despite any information that you may not choose to incorporate...

I hope the plant blooms open up all the way for you as they continue to mature...


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

Ron, thanks.

In retrospect I might have neglected watering the vine a couple of times. Now I check it every day and water if need be.

I am aware that most if not all morning growers on the vines forums, always recommend High P, fertilizers. I don't use anymore bloom boosters due to numerous threads on container gardening forum and others, which point the ineffectiveness of them. Here is one link on the plumeria forum. As you've said numerous times yourself fertilizer is a fuzzy term!

Since 2 years, I've been fertilizing only with the 9-3-6 ratio and have had decent results in my containerized Ipomeas despite the fact that most of them grew in less than ideal conditions. (meaning dappled shade).

Berry Ice, however, receives 4/5 hours of sun. Yesterday, I counted up to 50 flower buds and 5 flowers were blooming, though due to the thunderstorms 2 were in tatters.

It is truly a spectacular cultivar for my region, as it flowers rather early (compared to other Nils, I've grown). The flowers are big (3"), luminous, thus they can be seen from far away.


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open and phosphorus ?!

True-Blue -

I'm glad that you are happy with whatever you are using , although I did postulate that phosphorus could be a factor.

You mentioned:

" I don't use anymore bloom boosters due to numerous threads on container gardening forum and others, which point the ineffectiveness of them. Here is one link on the plumeria forum. As you've said numerous times yourself fertilizer is a fuzzy term! "

I agree that fertilizer is a fuzzy word , but, if you look at Any / all of my previous posts , I clearly state that it is of the essence to address exactly what nutrients are being addressed and what is the ratio in the substances you are using and *that* is what I am doing here...

Well, actually I used to get this type of response all of the time , albeit , 'years ago' , where people who have 'experience' in some plant group other than Morning Glories proceed to somehow directly or indirectly, direct what is going to work for MG's...

I can't help but find that a bit 'peculiar'...and
YES different species do respond differently to different nutrients...and
YES, those members who became part of the specialized MG groups found out that supplementing with some extra phosphorus DOES HELP the plants...those who have not tried it , or did it in a way which would not be helpful , will harbor a different view...

Here are the 2 main points:

1) is the applied phosphorus going to be absorbed

2) is the applied phosphorus going to be useful to the particular plant species and be in harmony with the Living Soil in the container (or other environmental) biosphere.

I respond in the affirmative to both of the above as long as the phosphorus is preferably a probiotic form.

The containers which have essentially no continued beneficial bacterial biological activity going on aren't going to be very good at modulating the nutrient uptake in any case...

I read the thread you linked to and I disagree strongly with the use of a ratio containing a very high amount of phosphorus which will most likely NOT work in a containerized environment (especially if low in biological activity) and then using the high phosphorus amount as if it represents the final word on the use of any amount of Phosphorus , especially the type of any extra phosphorus used in addition to any applied amount;

So, if you were to apply the amounts of phosphorus cited and in the ratios mentioned within a typical (and relatively small) container setting , you would not have a good experience , so what the linked thread exemplifies is how NOT to apply phosphorus in a typical (!) container setting, unless you want achieve total failure...although, there may be certain special conditions akin to hydroponics where very high amounts may work...

I am VERY familiar with the Peer reviewed literature and I know there are plenty of people who have 'degrees' but don't really know what they are talking about , but , luckily, some do know the reality of the bacterial rhizosphere / Living Biosphere that can exist in a container and that some extra phosphorus can most definitely be beneficial.

The benefits of additional phosphorus above and beyond what might be referred to as the 'RDA' for most plants, i.e., the amount which is considered to be above deficiency but to maintain good health.

The FACT that different species may utilize different amounts of phosphorus at different stages is often inadequately addressed or distorted in such a way as to mislead...

I have witnessed that the application of the right type (!) of phosphorus in a biologically active container environment as a beneficial fact...the aficionados in the other plant groups can do as they please.

Morning Glories CAN utilize more phosphorus than some of the other plants like passifloras, clematis and so on...

The cutting back on Nitrogen can help to induce flowering , but it is not a substitute for supplementing with some additional phosphorus and once flowering has initiated , the nitrogen needs to be kept UP because they also help to increase the degree of fertility, the size of the embryos and other important aspects related to the process of perpetuating the species.

The humic acid group i.e., humic acid , fulvic acids, and ulmic acids are still being elucidated , but some important aspects are known, such as humic acid proper being a relatively high molecular weight which is mostly produced by "Bacteria" , so if you have a good population of "beneficial bacteria" they will produce humic acid and these same bacteria LOVE phosphorus...

Some of the "beneficial bacteria" which colonize the roots of various Convolvulaceae (which can barely cling to rocks on the Pacific coast) are known as "rock eating bacteria", because they secrete acids to "extract phosphorus from the rocks" and pass it along to the roots of the plants.

Fulvic acid is produced by Fungi , but it is a very rare situation where fungi can be maintained in a relatively small sized container , because the fungi do not like anything to break the mycelium threads and guess what . fungi does not do well with any earthworms (!) because the worms break up the mycelial strands...shocking (!) isn't it...

There isn't much known about ulmic acids , but they play an important role...

One point that I would like to make is that although I do strongly recommend using humic substances , I am totally against using ANY of the ancient / mined products which are part of a giant industry to sell 'humates' , because before the humate craze, these ancient substances had zero economical value.

The ancient humic products are pre-loaded with heavy metals like mercury, lead, cadmium et al and I don't recommend that you ever use any of these , in fact many merchandisers who purportedly make fresh brewed humic acid , actually start the process with some form of mined humates and the heavy metals will not go away...these products have managed to even get organic ratings , because unfortunately money talks...

You want to achieve a balance of nutrients that is right for each plant species in the particular environment that it is being grown in and if you have Living Soil teaming with beneficial bacteria (which don't like to be dried out by the way) and you use probiotic substances to supply the nutrients like soft rock phosphate or judiciously applied bone meal (or other probiotic source) , then you will be making available an amount (and hopefully a range) of nutrients and let the plant and the helper bacteria decide what the plant really wants...

The Humic acids , fulvic acids , ulmic acids and Ion Exchange clays are of tremendous importance in storing minerals and allowing the plant to access what levels of nutrients "IT" wants to...

The Ion Exchange clays are usually thought of only in terms of cation exchange , but anion exchange is also very important.Cation exchange capacity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cation-exchange_capacity

Anion exchange capacity - (phosphorus is an anion)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil#Anion_exchange_capacity_.28AEC.29

Vermiculite - has a relatively high cation exchange capacity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiculite

Glauconite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauconite
The best greensand is bright green and is from New Jersey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensand

Zeolite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite

Clinoptilolite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinoptilolite

Ideally you want a growing medium with a combination of substances with a high cation exchange AND a high anion exchange capacity.

I have always thought it to be a very good idea to get a 2nd opinion from the plants because the way they react and behave IS the FINAL word... ,

I will be linking back to this thread when people ask me about phosphorus and striving for an ideal biologically active environment using humus and ion exchange clays...it's all grist for the mill of thought...

Please continue to enjoy your plants in whatever way you decide to and find most enjoyable...

This post was edited by ron_convolvulaceae on Wed, Jul 30, 14 at 4:03


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

Ron, thank you so much for the detailed response. Much appreciated.

I am taking some time to re-read in order to absorb, analyze and to ask you more questions.

I have 3 flowers not unfurling today.

I wonder maybe it's simply related to, excessive rain we had yesterday...


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

Another angle:


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

Sorry Ron, false alert. I took the pictures at noon. However, by 3 pm, two of the flowers were open, and the 3rd one unfurled 30 minutes later.

It is probably due to the cool weather we're experiencing. (57-67F range).

I managed to find a source for Canadian Humic products but in the final analysis it was too complicated to procure.

When you say probiotic do you mean something like this bone meal with humates or the humates is gimmick? I have this product , (which by the way is made by the same company.) or is it the fermented Kwas type drinks, which some people in the organic forum add to container/ soil etc?



 o
Humus components , glauconite and probiotic sources of elements

True-Blue,

You mentioned :

"When you say probiotic do you mean something like this bone meal with humates or the humates is gimmick? I have this product , (which by the way is made by the same company.) or is it the fermented Kwas type drinks, which some people in the organic forum add to container/ soil etc? "

I use the term probiotic to refer to any substance or condition that tends to stimulate beneficial organisms.

Humic acid and all of the related substances like humates, fulvic acids and fulvates , ulmic acids and ulmates are most definitely NOT a gimmick (far from it) , but , the ONLY humic acids or fulvic acids that you can be sure of to NOT contain Heavy Metals are the Humic acids that you make yourself.

The humus that you make yourself will NOT contain heavy metals as long as you don't put any heavy metals into it.

The vast majority of the humic acid products marketed use , as their starting ingredient humates originating from ancient mined deposits and these ancient mined substances CONTAIN HEAVY METALS (!)

So, once the humate INDUSTRY became aware that there were a substantial number of people who had done their homework enough to realize that these ancient deposits were full of toxic heavy metals , then, 'miraculously' , reports started to come out that the humic acids can 'miraculously' detoxify heavy metals by placing a special electrical charge on the poisons...although the heavy metals will remain in the humates but supposedly in a special electrically charged non-toxic form...

I personally , would much rather use a FRESH humic acid that I make MYSELF and throughout the entire process from START to FINISH , I make SURE that there are ZERO heavy metals in the humates.

I personally fell much better using a product which does NOT contain ANY heavy metals , than a product which DOES contain heavy metals , but have been 'magically' detoxified...
I prefer the product with NO heavy metals in it at all...let someone else go for the product containing heavy metals magically detoxified...

There is really NO WAY to know for certain that whatever product that you buy is not using (at any point in the entire process) ancient mined deposits which contain (and I use the term pre-loaded with) heavy metals, because they have a product to sell...and sellers tend to come up with whatever they think you want to hear , in order to sell you their products...

There probably are some people out there making humic acid without ANY heavy metal content , but I haven't been able to locate ANY who do not use the ancient mined products in their process...

The best Humic acid will be produced in your own compost pile as long as you don't put any heavy metals in it...

So, I did my best to get the heavy metal content aspect clarified , but please ask any questions you want to related to the subject and I will do what I can to help out with an accurate answer...

Regarding the KWAS, I found a thread on the GW here :
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/organic/msg1017185223542.html

and I think the question asked as to what the benefit is , is a good question.

The answer provided is that it makes insoluble minerals into soluble minerals.

Here is the deal, elements (now referred to as minerals) wouldn't need to be 'chelated' into soluble forms by application of acids , because the roots of the plants secrete various types of carboxylic acids which turn insoluble forms into soluble forms (salts).

The roots also secrete carbohydrates which feed the bacteria around the roots and the beneficial bacteria secrete acids turning insoluble elements into soluble salts, which the plant can use, so that is why it is so important to try to provide conditions which will encourage the growth of beneficial bacteria that will live in the soil around the roots, this region is referred to as the rhizosphere.

The right bacteria will always live off of the carbohydrates secreted by the roots, so there is no long term benefit to put bacteria that feed on milk, if they will not live long in an environment which does not supply milk.

It is important to learn the basics and keep the basic fundamentals always in mind , then you won't be misled by gobbledy-gook from salespeople or well intentioned gardeners who just don't know enough about the topic to offer the best information.

The basics are that the plants require a range of elements for optimal health,,,so, how to supply the full range of elements in a probiotic environment.

The addition of large amounts of pre-soluble elements is wasteful and because they are water soluble , they get washed away every time it rains or when you water the plants....contributing to over-growth of micro-organisms in waterways and in the ocean creating anoxic conditions and contributing to the death of aerobic life and ultimately the Death of the Ocean.

The use of slow release formulas is best (in my opinion) because it allows the root acids and the beneficial bacteria to gradually turn the elements in soluble salts as the plant requires the elements.

Humic , fulvic and ulmic acids which you can produce as the final by-product of compost, has the ability to capture the elements and form supra-molecules called humates, fulvates and ulmates.

The Glauconite type of clays can also contribute greatly because they can capture the elements inside of their matrix-like structure and release the elements to the finest hairs of the plant roots which can penetrate deep inside of the structure of the clay matrix, but because the elements in the colloidal clays are 'fixed' inside of the clay , they will NOT wash away when it rains or when you water the plants and the elements will always stay right where you and the plant want them.

The ONLY elements you will need to replace is whatever the plants use to build their bodies and what you do not return to the growing medium.

The use of fresh (heavy metal free) humus and ion exchange clays is the perfect system to keep all of the elements required right where the plants want to see them and the clay will prevent the salts from forming on the top of the soil...it is not always accurate to refer to these salts as toxic, the reason they precipitate on the surface is because they have (or have acquired) an electrical charge which causes them to crytalize on the top, but the ion exchange clays will keep the elements down where the plants roots can access and use them...

I will list some probiotic sources of the required and beneficial elements:

Nitrogen - Alfalfa meal , soy meal

Phosphorus - bone meal , soft rock phosphate

Potassium - Langbeinite (Sul-Po-Mag)

Silicon - compost made out of Borage, Comfrey, Horsetail - these plants have very strong root acids which can free the silicon from the strong mineral complex bonds it is found in and as widely distributed in most soils.(the silicon is widely distributed , but it is very strongly locked inside of mineral complexes, but certain plant root acids have the ability to free up the silicon and once it is free , it is much more available to be converted into the only form absorbable by plants which is orthosilicic acid)

Trace minerals - Alfalfa meal, dandelion , kelp meal, azomite (a type of lava rock- get the finely powdered kind certified for human consumption as it has the least toxic metal content)

This post was edited by ron_convolvulaceae on Thu, Jul 31, 14 at 5:32


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

Ron thanks so much for the explanation.

When I used the word gimmick, I did use it in the sense of a marketing ploy to sell a "noxious" product with an "organic" style branding. When I read your explanation on heavy metals, it reminded me why I was weary of such products in the first place.

I confess I am a bit overwhelmed by the wealth of information.

So, I'm going through each paragraph of your posts, trying to compile and condense the information.

Some questions, regarding the first post:
1) You said The benefits of additional phosphorus above and beyond what might be referred to as the 'RDA' for most plants, i.e., the amount which is considered to be above deficiency but to maintain good health.
What does RDA stand for?

2) I understand now that when you say bloom booster you are NOT referring to 15-30-15 or 15-52-15.
So what ratio are you referring to?

You said: "Fulvic acid is produced by Fungi , but it is a very rare situation where fungi can be maintained in a relatively small sized container , because the fungi do not like anything to break the mycelium threads ....

3) What is a minimum sized container where fungi can be maintained?

4) What will break the mycelium thread in a small container?

Thanks,

Bob


 o
RE: Elements and Living Soil...

Hey Bob - I'll try to clarify as able...

1) I mentioned the RDA in an analogy as per human nutrition where there is the MDR (minimum daily requirement) and the RDA (recommended daily allowance), both are considered by most nutrition experts outside of government funding to be too low to maintain optimum health

2) "I understand now that when you say bloom booster you are NOT referring to 15-30-15 or 15-52-15.
So what ratio are you referring to?"

You could actually use any of those , but just use a smaller dose and then you won't over-whelm the plant or the living soil...but , I prefer to use a dose of steamed bonemeal partially decomposed...fish bonemeal breaks down quicker and may have a wider range of trace minerals , but it also attracts animals that may dig up the containers...

The exact amount is more a case of the size of the container , plant size and some intuition...nitrogen and phosphorus are both used up when each is metabolized, so to cut back on nitrogen limits how much phosphorus can actually be utilized and vice versa...

You said: "Fulvic acid is produced by Fungi , but it is a very rare situation where fungi can be maintained in a relatively small sized container , because the fungi do not like anything to break the mycelium threads ...."

3) "What is a minimum sized container where fungi can be maintained?"

I would be guessing as I haven't attempted it after reading up substantially on the subject...

There may be some 30 gallon containers or larger where it may be feasible, but the fungi usually resent being directly watered on...

I like to be able to poke holes in the growing medium and pour in some bone meal or other supplement...

The fungi must have a food source and Convolvulacea usually do not enter into symbiotic relationships with the common arbuscular type of fungi ...but there are different types and species of fungi and some do enter in relationships with Convolvulaceae...

4) "What will break the mycelium thread in a small container?"

Anything like poking holes into the growing medium, worms or anything else capable of breaking the mycelial threads...

-------------------

There are companies that offer beneficial bacteria and fungi (some of which are reported to live in wet or hydroponic environments) , but unless there is food that they like, they won't continue to thrive...

There is a brand of supplements and amendments called Rabbit Hill.or Rabbit Hill Farms ..I like their products...


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

Thanks Ron.

1) You said:" both are considered by most nutrition experts outside of government funding to be too low to maintain optimum healthI assume your comment is about humans and not plants?!

2) Am I correct to assume that you use home made "bone/ fish meal." Something about the digging by animals gives me that impression. I use store bought, "organic" type.

Thanks for clarifying the fungi issue.

It seems that Rabbit Hill Farms has been sold to Maestro-Gro company, according to their website.


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

Hi Bob - Yes in reply to your question number 1 as I was trying to use some analogies in human nutrition to illustrate some points regarding plant nutrients...

Regarding question number 2 -
I don't make my own...not usually but I do make generalized compost and specialized compost in addition to some plant extracts for various purposes...

I don't use fish meal (made from fish flesh) , but fish bone meal made only from the bones.

I also use mammalian bone meal (partially pre-decomposed)...but anything from fish will attract animals around here where I am located...

The Rabbit Hill is often carried by various retailers , but they make good products...nice probiotic blends...


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

  • Posted by gerris2 Zone 7a Delaware (My Page) on
    Tue, Aug 12, 14 at 15:50

Fantast information, going to print for reference.

Nice flowers, Bob, really good looking.


 o
RE: Ipomoea nil buds fail to open

Isn't it Gerris?

Btw these are your seeds :-)


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Vines Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here