A couple months ago I had a hawk that decided it liked my backyard and moved in. The problem was, we raised rabbits and we just couldn't have a hawk around. We took the rabbits outdoors sometimes and I didn't want the hawk attacking them. So we called our local wild life control and they came and got it.

Yes, they do use tranquilizers. I went out with them so I could show them where I saw it and I watched them shoot it down with one. I don't know who told you they didn't, Elly, but they were wrong.

Wow, this is just simply amazing to me. Dilandau where are you located? I just can't imagine them coming out and tranquilizing a bird of prey for just doing what comes naturally. I thought that hawks were protected in some way, but apparently, I'm wrong. How unfair to the poor bird! You have said that you wouldn't kill anything, but what if the relocation in some way ends up harming the bird?

With all due respect, I don't understand why you feel that the songbirds have more of a right to eat than the hawk. You know, you may be sorry later when you're area is overrun by the prey animals that hawks eat. I hope you will do some research into the food chain and ecosystems. I guess for me, balance is more important. I'd rather change what I am doing than to eliminate such an important part of the system.

Have you considered an alternative to artificial feeding? You could plant berrying plants and seeding flowers and grasses to attract birds. By doing so, you will spread the songbirds out and give them a fighting chance against the hawk. You would also be providing cover and nesting sites for them.

Did you ever even think that running that airplane at the bird "stressed" him? It's winter and food is hard to come by, yet you feel that you're doing the right thing? That hawk could very well die because of your actions.

Presposterous (i.e. your line of thinking). Zappa had it right........he once said something to the effect that anywhere you find yourself in this world, there's bound to be more stupid people than you think. Thanks for confirming Frank's thoughts dude.

Tranquililzing and relocating hawks is illegal. And cruel. And wrong. (This is apart from relocating wildlife in general, which in many states is illegal and always cruel and wrong.

I missed the part that on the web site that says he can dart wildife. He says he uses "tranquilizing techniques," but does not really explain. I would love to know where he is located. I have questions.

Here are his credentials:

Question: What qualifies you to provide wildlife control services?

Answer: I have been in business for myself for 26 years. Of which time, I have been a professional trapper for six years. Every job that we have undertaken has been able to be solved, and the professional trappers we use have years of wild animal control experience.

Scary. What's more scary is that people hire these guys, instead of fixing the real problems. But then it is not in their interest for homeowners to be educated on the subject and deal with the real problems (capping chimneys, taking down food that attracts unwanted guests, etc.).

The Humane Society of the US offers excellent advice on dealing with wildlife. Here is their site.

Dilandau: Let me clarify something...I wrote "you may be sorry later when you're area is overrun by the prey animals." I didn't write anything about them being pests. You have inferred that. I don't consider prey animals pests as long as they stay outside my house. If I have a problem with them, I usually eliminate the food source that is attracting them, and then they go elsewhere. I'm suggesting that you eliminate the feeders, thereby eliminating the abundant food source of the hawk, and he will go elsewhere. The man that goes after a hawk with a baseball bat will find his actions are illegal. He also may find the hawk to be a formidable opponent.

Just take a minute to think about the bigger picture. Hawks play an important role in the system/food chain. They eat songbirds, but they also eat mice and other small mammals. You may be surprised by how many mice/rats are attracted by the bird seed that the songbirds are dropping in the area. Then when the mice/rats show up, the predator will be gone, and the mice/rat numbers will increase unchecked. Then, there will be a need to exterminate them, simply for filling their little niche in the system--cleaning the area of rotting seed. Of course, then there will be a justification for that. Each animal in the system plays a role. The role of the predator is to keep the numbers of prey animals down which helps to keep disease in check.

Next month, I suspect there will be a question here about why the birds that are coming to your condo's feeders have infected eyes and other diseases. But then again, I suspect that, in the end, this is more about the will of humans and preserving the human enjoyment than it is any real concern for the birds. The birds understand the food chain and survival of the fittest. It is the humans that have a problem with it.

We have some feral stray cats here that haven't been dealt with. I'm sure they'll be able to keep the mice/rats in check. The nice thing about that is that they can't get to the bird feeders are because of the way the fences here are set up, like the hawk could.

Somehow I doubt that removing the hawk is going to cause our ecosystem to shut down. After all, the birds were doing just fine until he came along. He only moved in around three months ago.

Shut down? I don't think that anyone has suggested that it will shut down. Three months is a very short time in the big scheme of things. Good luck to you. You seem to have it all figured out.

The hawks are always there. Like the moon. You just don't see them all the time. Other hawks will come to the food you provide for them.

Cats do get the birds, and they play greater havoc with wild bird populations than hawks do.

Let me tell you a lilttle about darting animals with tranquilizers. To do so, you must have the animal's weight, because the tranquilizer is a medicine, an anesthesia. To give too little will either not work, or work too late, when the animal is in a situation in which going unconscious could kill it. Too much anesthesia can kill it, too. So how do they get the weight of an animal (a hawk) that you can only take a guess at by feeling its breastbone? (I handled hawks for 10 years, and based on that, I could sometimes guess weight within 6-8 ounces. 6 - 8 ounce differences change dosage.)

The dart must - must - hit muscle. Not bone, not a nerve. Hitting a nerve can cause irreversable nerve damage and paralyze it forever.

Since the dart contains medicine, and often a controlled substance, only experienced veterinarians and wildlife biologists may use it. Not any vet or wildlife biologist: Experienced ones, who have done it before and who know what to do when something goes wrong.

Imagine taking your child to the doctor for a shot. The doctor is out. The receptionist offers to give your child the shot. She doesn't look at the patient's chart to see if the child is allergic to anything; she doesn't weigh the child for the correct dosage.

Get it now?

How do you dart a hawk? How do you hit the right place, which is very small in a bird, and miss nerves, muscles and eyes? You don't. It's not done. People who need to catch hawks use specially designed traps that they must be licensed for. And not anyone can get a license.

Just because someone makes money off of "taking care of your wildlife problems" does not make it legal or right. How do you know the hawk survived afterwards? How do you know the needle did not hit a nerve and that the bird could fly properly? How do you know if the bird (or any animal that's "taken care of" in that way) had a mate, or chicks that were left behind? A male hawk, early in the nesting season, brings food to the female while she sits on eggs, and after that, brings food to the family while she broods the chicks.

Animal nuisance operators have no real interest in these points, because to attend to them will lose them money. They make money off of ignorance and laziness.

I feel bad for the hawk and all. It's not as if I hated it or anything. It simply couldn't stay though, and neither can the rest that decide to show themself. If they're smart, they'll continue to stay hidden, but once they start making themselves a nuisance to the rest of the residents, they're out of here. I trust that the people who came and got him removed knew what they were doing. If they didn't, it's not my fault or my problem, it's the government's. If they're going to make laws about hawks and their removal, they need to enforce them and shut down WLC agencies that are breaking those laws.

If it helps you feel better, next time we get a hawk, I will try and find someone who traps them rather than tranquilizes them.

I don't at all feel better when I know there is thinking like this.

Please take a look at the HSUS website.

I did look at the HSUS website. I followed all the steps they have listed there. If anything, it only backs up my belief that I did the right thing. The hawk was a threat to small pets that are sometimes left outdoors, and it was in danger from my neighbors, who were getting increasingly more violent towards it.

Sometimes animals need to be moved, especially when they're living in a populated area. A hawks' place is in the forest. For all you know, it might be better off. That's the last I'm going to say on this matter, because I don't think it's that big a deal.

I think its sureal that people are making such a fuss over relocating a hawk when where i live I see undesired hawks eagles and falcons being shot towards or trapped and killed a lot. I live in Japan. You should not scoff or complain about hawk being moved because if the hawk lives in a other contry and was undesired it would be killed instead.

Dil: Where are you located in Ohio? This seems to be a common problem. I have a friend in Ohio that was just telling me a simliar story. I wonder if you are in the same area?

I live in Columbus. Where does your friend live?

Thanks for visiting the Wildlife Garden Forum.

%( (eyes crossed)

Dil: My friend lives in Akron. Did you have to get any special permits from the state to have this done? He thought it was necessary to have some sort of special permit.

The crew I hired probably had one, but I didn't personally need one. I wasn't the one moving the bird, I was just the one recommending that it be moved.

There has been a hawk problem in Ohio as of late. Some wild life foundation reintroduced a bunch of hawks into the wild. I'm not sure of the details, because I didn't pay too much attention to the story and I heard it in passing on the news. But anyway, there was a followup story that the place that released them is starting to rethink their idea. A lot hawks made homes in the city of Columbus, and quite a few people have complained because they don't enjoy seeing pigeons randomly ripped up in front of them or their kids. So now the place that released them is discussing what they should do to get them out of the city and that's the last I've heard of the story. I don't think the one in my area was one of those hawks though. I don't live that close to the actual city.

I understand why people don't enjoy watching a hawk rip up pigeons in front of them, but the real tragedy in this story is that people can't take the time to explain the bigger picture to their kids. By complaining and being intolerant of the hawk, they take a kneejerk approach to solving the problem, but not to explaining the reality of that natural process to their kids. I think these are the hard but necessary lessons of life. We can't make everything pleasant and happy because it leaves kids ill prepared for the realities of life.

I recall seeing a movie once where a child from the mountains of Virginia watched a hawk catch a rabbit. Even as they consoled him, his parents stood by and suggested that he try not to be sad because that it is the way that the rabbits as a species are made stronger; the whole natural selection thing. They explained that it is the bigger plan and that although it was unpleasant to watch, it is part of the circle of life. I think a little of that kind of explanation would go a long way to helping kids understand that sometimes things in life are unpleasant and that we need to learn to deal with them because life is not always the way we want it to be. I work in a kindergarten classroom where we teach the circle of life and kids watch an occasional video where one animal eats another. We explain that it is part of the natural order of things and that it is eat or be eaten. They accept it quite readily, even better than most adults expect them to.

What seems paradoxical to me in all of this is that we, as a culture, have a problem with their kids seeing a natural act but don't seem to have any problem with their kids watching the news or violent movies or playing video games that display random acts of extreme violence.

I wonder if, by exposing kids to some of the realities of the natural world, we would be giving them a real lesson in tolerance? Different species have different ways of surviving. It all works together to insure balance.

I agree that kids should be taught about the circle of life(though we first watched an animal eating another animal in 3rd grade, I believe.) And I suppose if I had a kid who saw a hawk ripping up a pigeon in the city, I would try to explain it to them, if only so they wouldn't be upset. I think there's a slight difference between learning from a video and seeing it in real life though. In a movie, the animal died a long time ago, but when you see an animal killed in real life, you just witnessed a life ending at that very moment. It's a shock and it's very jarring, at least to me. Do you understand what I mean?

And while I try to explain to myself that it's just the circle of life and the natural order, I can't help but feel for the animal that died as an individual. For instance, the particular bird that I just saw being killed by a hawk will never have another life. It will never get to fly again or eat again, or chirp with the other birds again. The last thing it experienced was the fear and pain of being killed. It just makes me very sad.

I don't have a problem with the circle of life, really...I just don't want to see it happen in front of me. It's like a hot dog. Let's say someone likes hot dogs, and knows how a hot dog is made...but that doesn't mean they actually want to WATCH it being made or think about it while they're eating if that kind of thing grosses the person out. I like hawks and other predatory animals, and I realize that they have to kill and eat to be live, but that doesn't mean I want to see it up close and personal.

Dilandau: I do appreciate your willingness to keep thinking about this issue. Believe me, I get it. I don't enjoy it either. I turn my head when it happens in my yard, but I'm at peace with the entire process. I would agree that real life is harder to watch. The lesson is that it is natural selection, and it serves to make the species stronger. Nature doesn't care much about the individual. It cares about the species and the system as a whole. The point where we differ is how much to tinker with that. I don't believe that humans have the right to interfere merely to preserve their own pleasure. For the same reasons you feel bad for the songbirds, I feel bad for the hawk. He was lured there by the feeders. He was doing what he was meant to do. He didn't ask to become a victim either.

As humans, we always want to anthropomorphize animals. That is not reality, which in my opinion is not a good message to send to children. Kids take a lot from the model we provide. If we thoughtfully explain the concept to a child, in the long run they will take more from the message. I see it as a teachable moment. I wouldn't wish it on a kid, but if it happened, I'd explain it and comfort the kid. The thing I would have a harder time explaining is why the man had to come out with the gun and shoot the hawk. To that question, I don't think there are any easy answers.

I can't find the "problem" hawks that were introduced back to Ohio.

I found Ospreys: http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/Resources/osprey/osprey.htm

I found Peregrines:
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/falcons/05season.htm

These are success stories about animals that human ignorance and greed almost destroyed.

I guess people have different ideas of what constitutes a problem. Me, I think human population numbers rising is a problem.

Vonyon, I do feel sorry for the hawk. Then again, I feel sorry for most birds and to me, the hawk is just a big one with a sharper beak. I don't feel the hawk was a victim though. It seems to me that everyone assumed that the people that came out and took him didn't know what they were doing, but I don't agree. A whole crew of people came out, so for all I know, one of them could have been a vet. Even though the hawk stayed in one area for most of the time they were out there (it occasionally flew from the tennis court fence it was standing on to the fence across from that), it still took them about two hours to shoot it with the tranq. I believe the hawk is fine. Something much worse could have happened to him than being moved, after all. For instance animals that aren't protected, like dogs and cats, can end up being euthanized when AC is called in.

elly_nj, I'll try and find the story for you. I read about it in the Columbus Dispatch, so I'll look on their website and see if I can spot it.

Dilandau: Quite honestly, from Elly's post, I think there are many risks that were taken in order to move that hawk. If I'm not mistaken, Elly spent several years as an avian rehabber. The information she provides on the risks of tranquilizing the hawk is likely to be fairly reliable. In my opinion, the threat the hawk presented did not warrant taking those risks. I realize that is my opinion. I, personally, would not feel right about doing it. The hawk differs from dogs and cats in that it is a wild native animal and belongs here. It is part of the food chain and is not a threat to humans. People can supervise their pets. We just can't seem to get past that point, but I respect your willingness to continue to debate this and to think about it.

The thing is that everyone that gets interested in nature seeks to see more of it. As a result we try to lure nature to us. I think it is good in that, it gives us a window through which to start observing nature and understanding how it is intertwined with our lives. You have come to be connected with the lives of the songbirds. I don't think that is a bad thing. The problem is that there is always a trade off with everything. By feeding birds, the concentration of prey draws hawks. The down side is that people get mad at the hawk because they consider him a big spoilsport for simply responding to the excess food. The people decide that the hawk then needs to be relocated. Do you see how unfair that is?

I have often seen posts on this board seeking information on how to lure and feed deer, raccoons, etc. only to later see the same people here seeking a solution when the natural reaction has created a nuisance. Usually, they want to relocate the animal. In the case of some animals, this spells death. I don't think they really consider that. They just assume that the animal can be relocated safely. That assumption solves the problem for the human, so that is the end of the debate. So you can see why people develop strong opinions about this issue. It just seems like a very "human-centric" way to handle a problem.

One last point....from that website and what you seem to know about these people, I similarly question your assumption that these people knew what they were doing. Is this assumption any different than the people who are assuming that they didn't know what they were doing?

From reading the website, I didn't see any compelling information that gave legitimate credentials. If we go back to what Elly pulled off the site it says:

Question: What qualifies you to provide wildlife control services?

Answer: I have been in business for myself for 26 years. Of which time, I have been a professional trapper for six years. Every job that we have undertaken has been able to be solved, and the professional trappers we use have years of wild animal control experience.

After reading this, I'm left with more questions than answers. First, 26 years in business for myself doing what? Being in business for myself can mean many things: carpenter, plumber, Tupperware salesman, etc. Second, how does being a professional trapper for six years make him any more knowledgable about how to keep animals alive? Keeping an animal alive is not always the goal of a trapper. Thirdly, Every job that we have undertaken has been able to be solved What precisely does he mean by solved? Does he mean solved for the human that pays the bill or for the animal? It seems to me that the human solution is to remove the hawk, period. Personally, I think we just assume because someone is doing something, they are qualified to do it. I believe if the man had some real credentials, they certainly would be posted on the website. From your posts so far, you seem to be a reasonable person who truly does love nature, I hope you will reconsider this decision if you are faced with the problem again, which inevitably you will be.

Alright, Vonyon. Next time I have a hawk problem, I'll try to solve it another way.

Well, I'm assuming that you mean another solution with the hawk in mind. Like I said, I appreciate your continuing to listen and debate this. I do understand that you were trying to do the right thing by not letting your neighbors take a baseball bat to it. I think we don't often portray the whole picture, so thinking from the hawk's view is not something we are accustomed to doing.

I think you will probably continue to have the hawk problems with all the bird feeders being there. Maybe you can play devil's advocate with the neighbors and explain the hawk's view.

What do you think I should say to my neighbours? I don't think a lot of them will be willing to remove their feeders. I can try to give them suggestions on more peaceful ways to deal with the hawk rather than going after it. Any ideas?

You may be right. Adults form opinions throughout their lives, and we are remarkably resistant to rethinking them. Kids are much more maleable. There have been plenty of arguments on this forum about whether or not to feed birds artificially. That is up to people to make up their own minds. I just think that making an informed decision is preferable to an uninformed one. I believe that through understanding, most problems can be solved. Since these people seem to be nature lovers, maybe someone could come and do a presentation on this for them at a community center or meeting sometime. They may begin to see the light in an indirect way.

So, you could say that you have since started to think about the bigger picture and how you all may be contributing to the problem. Then I would explain that the reason that hawks are coming is because there is a concentration of food for them. They are simply responding to the situation that is presented to them the same way the songbirds are showing up because they have found a concentration of their food at the feeders. If they follow the food chain backwards from the hawk, they will see that the reason he is there is indirectly related to the feeders.

A little education into how ecosystems work and how each member (plant and animal) occupies a niche might help. In other words, a niche is like a job that is integral to the larger community. They are watching this in action. If a community member is eliminated for some reason or is not doing their job, there are further consequences down the road. The songbirds are there to clean up seed. The hawks are there to keep the songbird population in check. If you eliminate one, you will eventually have an overpopulation of another species and the ecosystem is out of balance. Ideally, balance is best because it keeps the system or community healthy when everyone does their job. Look at the white-tailed deer as an example. Their overpopulation has caused many problems: starvation for deer, disease (chronic waste, Lyme), destruction of the habitat of other animals (because they are eating things that other animals used to rely on for food), and destruction of human landscaping to name a few.

You know, environmentalists get a bad name because of the few extremists who are totally intolerant of other views. Extremism and intolerance always give any issue a bad name, but I'd like to think that all humans should/could be environmentalists because we occupy a niche as well. Unfortunately we are not always good community members. The thing is that the whole thing is really just common sense. I think people just see the problem from a human viewpoint. They like seeing the birds, but don't like the consequences of that.

After reading this thread and doing a little personal research, I found out that a hawk is not likely to survive a relocation. That is in addition to the risk that Elly already pointed to from the tranquilizer.

The bottom line is that harming hawks is illegal since they are protected by law. Most people do not want to break the law.

Good luck to you. Maybe a few will, like you, be open-minded and will listen to you. Good luck to you in all of this.

Dil: Here is a thread about how squirrels have caused a problem at another place as a result of the seed drawing them to the feeders.

Consider renting the DVD "Pale Male," and passing it around.

Good luck.

vonyon's my hero.

Sorry for the late replies - I've been pretty busy lately. (It seems like our whole family has their birthdays around the same month!) I did read over your advice though, vonyon, and I'll bring it up at the next condo meeting. Thanks!

Dil: Please keep us posted.

I can't believe that there's still discourse on this topic.

So ALL of the neighbors were in agreement that the hawk should me moved (by any means) so that it wouldn't affect their birdfeeding????!!!!!!

What if a Jew, a Muslim or anyone for that matter "that the neighborhood condo owners didn't like".......what would happen then??? Trank gun? Intimidation?

Columbus......a university town no less.......a town in a red state where this little condo has it all ack basswards.

Birdsong, there's a reason that environmentalists sometimes get a bad reputation, and you're displaying a perfect example of that.

Yesterday while I was in the kitchen, at least 3 sparrows flew right into the patio doors in a panic, looking out I noticed all the birds by the feeder were gone, and on the power line in the middle of the yard was a large bird, my husband looked and said it was a hawk, It was very big, but by the time I got my camera, he had flown away. Darn, as I did not have my glasses on I could not get a good look at him. One more thing, as I am a night worker, I was just waking up today around noon, and in my stupor I heard a cardinal song. I do not remember hearing their song this early in the year, but it is making my day, and woke me up very well. Spring is actually on the way!

Thanks dillie. If it weren't for folks like me telling you how "dumb and wrong" you are, we would have no birds of prey about. I nearly punched out a brother in law who routinely shot Great Horned and Short Eared Owls along the Bayshore when he couldn't get at any shots at rabbits on the old landfill. His comments? They were eating "his" rabbits. Pssssssssssst. They're not your songbirds either.

Remember my little Zappa reference up above on this thread????? You're Frank's "poster child".

Now, answer the question. What if a gay, a Muslim or anyone else lived in your Condo, and the Condo didn't care for that person. They cooked and the smells were overwhelming. Or the gays being visible were too disturbing for you. Would you hire an exterminator? light torches and burn him/her out? or perhaps start your own porgrom?

You give the human race a bad name. BTW, can you point me in the direction of ANY POST that you may have posted on Gardening elsewhere???? Just curious. You have a single minded focus here that is illustrative of many who come on here purely to agitate. I doubt very much that you've ever offered a scintilla of evidence that you're a gardener let alone a lover of the natural world.

I get hundreds of warblers each spring at my house. And if sharpie, or a screech owl is getting to eat, it's fine by me. After all, you're not taking them out to dinner are you???? Oh that's right, you're the one who pruportedly hired someone to trank and move a hawk who was bothering all at the Condo. Did you have a general meeting with the association to discuss this "menace"??????

How utterly ridiculous and preposterous your whole ACT is.

I'd like to invite you to Cape May any day in October, when Higbee beach is full of sharpies, and who with a little luck get a meal of blue jays, or flickers.

Now Dilly ol boy. Tell us. Intimidation? Torch them out? or start a 'pogrom'???? Inquiring minds want to know. :)

Birdsong,

The message to which you are referring progressed to an end. I think it did so quite well. Dil came here specifically with a problem, which is why many people find these forums.

If anyone came to agitate the already-resolved situaion, it is you. Your incessent badgering of someone who seemed to find a resolution (thanks to Vonyon's patience and intelligence) is alarming to me, who I am sad to say, is on your "side" regarding ecology.

So please leave it alone. It's over, except for your posthumous stirring.

Thanks, elly_nj. It's all right, I'll just ignore Birdsong from now on.

Dil: I appreciate the fact that you hung in there, did not allow yourself to be intimidated by those who choose to get nasty and were willing to listen and reconsider your opinion. In the end, that is the reason we all post here. It takes a big person to do that and you have proven to me that having these debates is very worthwhile for all of us. Thanks for your reconsideration of this difficult issue.

Fair enough Elly. I didn't read all of the posts in great detail, gleaning for the most part; what I did gather was a continued single minded rant that still persisted as of this past week by our friend in Columbus.

Let's call a spade a spade here. It was a ridiculous set of arguments put forth by Dillie.

Yes, initially, you were right birdsong, but I think it is important to give credit where it is due. If someone is willing to read and listen and alter their opinion, rather than get defensive, then it isn't fair to keep attacking them. The ability to think outside the box is a sign of intelligence. Everyone is entitled to making a mistake based on bad information. More often than not on here, I have found that people end up putting a stake in the ground and because they are attacked, they never alter their opinion. In my opinion, that would be the worst of outcomes. We are all here to help each other. I think it is the old saying you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar kind of thing. I'm sure your opinion has evolved as you have learned about the environment and you have to give other people the same opportunity.

Vonyon, I hear you up to a certain point. Living in the Soprano State with the tremendous influx of cityfolk who've been leaving NYC/urbanized No. Jersey in droves over the last 20 years has hardened me.

I can only stomach so much "ignorance" when it comes to the natural world. Especially so when those so called 'moneyed new suburban homeowners' are wasteful with regard to finite resources (water) and the worshiping of lawns. And they Vonyon are the MAJORITY here.

That's why I've long since discarded the "honey" approach. It don't work with the baddabing crowd who are going to do whatever the hell they please.

Exactly, Vonyon. The reason people have debates is so that they can listen to each other's ideas without getting defensive. If I had come to the message board and it was just Birdsong ranting, I would have just rolled my eyes and I wouldn't have given the matter a second thought. I'm glad you made an effort.

Birdsong: I can certainly understand why you feel the way you do. In fact, I agree with your views 100%. I am saddened that we are all in the position of losing our tempers because this issue is so near and dear to our hearts, and we always feel that we are losing the battle (especially when facing the approaching season of Chemlawn ads). I think I pointed out to Dil in one post why we all feel as strongly as we do: . . . I have often seen posts on this board seeking information on how to lure and feed deer, raccoons, etc. only to later see the same people here seeking a solution when the natural reaction has created a nuisance. . . . so you can see why people develop strong opinions about this issue.

However, after spending a couple of years reading, I believe that we all have a unique opportunity here. This kind of board gives us the opportunity to debate these ideas online for many people to read. I like to think that there are other people out there, like Dil (and probably each one of us at one time or another), who are similarly fertile ground. I think that when we do lose our tempers and get sharper than we want to, our argument loses power. I'm as guilty as anyone of losing my temper in this thread, but the amazing thing about Dil is that he hung in there. I personally think that takes a pretty big person . . . not to mention that Dil has promised to try to explain his new understanding to his neighbors. He won't win them all over, but he may convince a few. What more can we ask for? Afterall, what we are asking for is a paradigm shift. Our culture values making money and personal enjoyment above and beyond all else. So, we are asking for deeply-rooted cultural ideals to change. That won't happen overnight. Maybe I'm being way too optimistic, but I think if people did understand the common sense of it, some of them wouldn't do the things they do. The only way to hope to change people's opinions is to debate them respectfully. So, while I understand where your anger comes from, I hope you will rethink your approach. You obviously understand the issue clearly and have some valuable insight to add.

First thing...I am so sorry for anyone who has had a loss. I live in a populated city in NJ but my home has a real big nice backyard with trees and such. I have all kinds of "friends" come visit and I have been helping them ( feeding, protecting ) for so many years that I have seen many generations of the same family. Some know our family so well that they are not as scared of us as others. I came here to see if there was any good advice to keep hawks away as about two years ago I started to see them, then yesterday there was a baby in the tree and now I am serching for as much help as I can get. I am thankful that there are other good people who care about other living things and I pray for you all. I am so sad to see that some people say things like...they ONLY go after pigeons??? or that is ok??? I love all them animals, and the pigeons are cute, friendly, smart birds who are the closest relative to parrots, as I have two parrots, but that all aside...they have parents and babies, and have blood inside them to. Please everyone, don't judge a book by it's cover, some people "like" the birds based on there color? we have a family of cardinals that we love so much, but we love are family of black birds just as much. I am going to leave now to go see what I can do to help all the animals ( we have family's of many kinds of animals )that do not prey on other animals. I know it happens in nature, but I can try and do everything I can to keep my backyard as safe as possable. Please...if you love birds, and animals...love all the peaceful ones the same. Trust me...if you take the time to look past there color or reputation...you will see love in there eye's and a big heart, and a new friend. If any of you nice people read this and have a GREAT NEW solution that may help me in my quest to help the birds and animals and keep the hawks away could you please let me know. My email address is cjjhcd3@aol.com Thank you and GOD BLESS ALL THAT'S GOOD.

I can't believe this thread is still alive.

All I have to say is: pigeons are in no way related to parrots. That does not diminish their inherent importance in the world, especially as a prey species.

But just so you know. Parrots are from the order Psittaciformes, and pigeons are from the order Colombiformes. Although both are social animals, that is where the similarities end.

Good luck with your backyard critters!

I am really sorry about your little feathered friend! I have 3 bantam chickens that I raised sinced they were only 3hrs.old,they are now almost 11mths.old. My 1 rooster was attached by a hawk right in my front yard when he was only 5mths.& no bigger than a pidgeon. I just happened to look out the window right when it attached so I grabbed a broom, screaming bloody murder & saved my baby! He had a rough recovery! Amazing the damage done in less than 30 seconds! But the great news is he's fine now & thanks to that experience I did tons of research on how to keep all our feathered friends safe!
1.Birds of prey don't really get along, so just like fake owls work for pidgeons, they will also make smaller falcons & hawks think twice!
2.CROWS! Either make friends with some live ones or go the fake route like the owl. Crows harass hawks & falcons big time! They gang up on them, BAD! And, if you have ever seen it, you start to feel bad for the hawk or falcon (but only for about 1 second though).
3.Hawk balls or just plain CD's. Hawk balls are basically little disco balls that reflect bright sunlight in all directions, hung up hi from a weather vane or tree branches around the yard really turns them off! Apparently they really don't like all the bright flashing shiny light!
Hanging old CD's in the tree branches reflect light in just the same way & may work out cheaper & more convenient than tracking down hawk balls. Everybody has spare CD's laying around just waiting for a good cause. Tired of hearing Justin Bieber, 100 times daily? Oops honey, no I haven't seen your cd.
Just kidding. But you get the idea, any old scratched cd's & dvd's will work & you get the extra bonus of a free pretty light show in your garden. As well as entertainment you can't buy! My chickens love chasing the reflected light, they'll give any cat, chasing a laser pointer or flashlight spot competition anyday!
Well Good Luck! Hope these ideas save at least 1 life!

I also had a favorite bird that was a mockingbird. It had an injured foot so I would grind up almonds, sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, pecans, walnuts and meal worms and add a little bone meal for added calcium. I was just going to feed her until her foot got better. I would throw the food on the walkway in front of the house. She and various other kinds of birds would eat the food. Her foot improved but she still had some difficulty balancing on a tree branch. She would swoop down out of the palm tree or sit on a low tree branch waiting for food. Later on she would wait on the step outside the front door for food. Sometimes I would feed her about 8 times a day. She would eat 3 or 4 pieces of food and leave. She was such a delight to watch but I always worried about her. I loved to watch her bob on a branch of a low palm tree. I think it gave her comfort from her injured foot. One day she didn't come for food which was very unusual. The next day I heard a commotion outside the house. I ran outside and a hawk had a dove in its talons on the roof of a house across the street. It took off with its prey. Upon inspection of the front lawn I found feathers from the dove near the house and mockingbird feathers near the low palm tree where she used to sit. It's been a week and I haven't seen my mockingbird. It makes me very sad. I loved that little bird and thought seriously about bringing it indoors and making it a pet. Many people had them as pets in the early 1900s. They are such beautiful creatures. I found out recently in the bible that animals were given a fear of man. The week before the hawk showed up I was going to stop feeding her because I felt she was getting complacent. I don't feed birds anymore. I think it's better for them to get their food from the wild. I believe it keeps them on the move and more alert to dangers.

For the love of God! People!! She didnt kill the darn hawk! I've lost a dog 13lb dog whom i loved dearly to a hawk! If i could i would have shot it!! It all happened so fast next thing i know my dog FALL'S from the sky only for the damn hawk to come back and sc scoop it back up!!! Yes!! This was in my fenced in back yard!! Same thing happened to my next door neighbor..so the cyotes that run around should be allowed to eat your pets as well?? Maybe we should stop building homes too..this destroys the natural habitat for the animals of prey..my Lord people!!! Its so activating to read this just because a bird was relocated? They do it with ALL animal's!! Racoons too..hawks..really? She didnt kill the dang thing and there are necessary steps to be to be made in relocating any animal so no worry the hawk will be fine!!