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adamm321

Do you have to sacrifice 'attractive' to grow for wildlife?

AdamM321
18 years ago

Hi,

I keep reading posts on this forum about all the great hedgerows and wildlife, native plantings people have been adding to their yards. I went to the Gallery and have seen posts that are mostly of wildlife photos and not photos of the hedgerows and native plants. I would so much like to see photos of native plant gardens, as it is so hard to actually see a mature planting.

Having an attractive yard is very important to me. I definitely want a "functional" and "useful" yard for wildlife as well, but I would like to have it as attractive as I can too.

I would like to have lots of varied foliage, like white variegated red twig dogwood, and dark diablo ninebark. I would like to have lots of flowers in different colors than white.

I was just wondering if anyone here has successfully added natives and wildlife plants to their yard, but was also able to incorporate other shrubs and plantings that satisfy a desire for gorgeous. [g]

Adam

Comments (59)

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, it would appear that there are differences of opinion. I guess that should not be surprising, why should wildlife gardening be any different. :-)

    I find it difficult to accept that every plant that is not a native is a potential invasive. That doesn't seem to add up to me. Lilacs for instance, or peonies. At any rate, I have never heard anyone suggest that before. I am happy that there are so many people trying to figure it all out and do what they can. It's great! It wasn't that long ago that wasn't true.

    Thanks all for sharing your own approach. I guess I am just going to have to experiment with what I want to do and see what works for me. I am glad to have such a great resource when I have questions to ask about native plants.

    Yes, I was thinking of using the natives in the back of the border and adding some other shrubs in the front. From what I have already purchased though, much of the natives are very attractive. I wish I had more experience with them so I could feel more confident using them, but you have to start somewhere. I found a new book at the library called Native Plants of the Northeast. That is being very helpful too. It has some of the first glimpses of some natives that I have seen.

    What would really help, would be if everyone who is LOVING their native plants backyards, would share some photos of them. That would be great. I wish I had a digital camera and I would try documenting the change I am making in my yard.

    Adam

  • roseunhip
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Elaine does have a point here where a non-native sometimes will behave for a while, then escape and mess up the native ecosystems, sometimes to a point of (apparent) no-return. There are many documented examples of this (fauna and flora). So where to draw the line? The asthetics behind all that has "looked nice" so far in gardening can always - and does - change too.

  • too_many_pets
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam...Research, seek input, and ultimately do what you feel is right. I refuse to see this as an all or nothing proposition, as many here do. I've learned a great deal and have added many natives to my property. I also love Lily of the Valley because it reminds me of my childhood, and I am not a bad person because I chose to challenge myself by attempting roses. Happy Gardening!!

  • jillmcm
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam, almost anything can be invasive in the right conditions - lilacs are HUGELY invasive in North Dakota, for example. Hard to believe, but true. I find that it's much easier on me to avoid anything non-native so that I don't have to be diligent about deadheading, or checking for suckers, etc. It just makes my life easier.

    Having said that, I do sometimes yield to temptation, but I plant my non-natives in pots so I can really keep an eye on them.

    Another thing to consider is that there are natives that have been "selected" for characteristics that they don't normally show in the wild. There are variegated dogwood and mayapples, for instance, same with phlox. These plants are derived from native species and then artificially selected by breeders. They don't always have the same wildlife benefit - many are sterile, for instance - but they stretch the boundaries of what you can do with natives. And there are natives with burgundy foliage such as sand cherry. The more you look, the more interesting plants you'll find. Native does not always mean green and weedy!

    You can certainly mix natives with non-natives. Just be very, very careful and do your research first. I think impulse buying has gotten more gardeners in trouble than anything else. There are lots of resources on the web for finding out about the potential invasiveness of a particular species. Stay away from those identified as known invasives or those with a high potential to become invasive, and you should be fine. But with a little effort, almost every cool exotic can be replaced with an equally cool native.

    Last thought - don't you think a garden full of gorgeous native plants will stick out in your neighborhood? Sounds like everyone else has the same familiar plantings - your garden will be uniquely different and I'll bet you'll get a lot of "Wow! What's that?" too.

  • John_D
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My garden is a mix of natives and non-natives. When I bought the place back in 1993, it was mostly lawn with no native shrubs. It is now a jungle. With a few exceptions, the natives planted themselves. I put in camas, ceanothus, native rhododendron, grand fir, douglas fir, shore pine, and western yew. Lady ferns, sword ferns, wood ferns, maidenhair ferns, and other native varieties planted themselves. So did Nootka rose, twinberry, salmonberry, thimbleberry, creek dogwood, hazelnut. mountain ash, paper birch, red alder, red elderberry, serviceberry, western red-cedar, wild cherries, and willows planted themselves from wind- or bird-carried seeds. Intermingled with these natives, I have berry canes, akebia, honeysuckle, and grape vines, fruit and flowering trees, camellias, hostas, and exotic ferns. The birds, opossums, and raccoons don't discriminate between native and non-native blossoms and fruits (yes, they eat blossoms). I gladly share apples, berries, cherries, figs, grapes, pears and plums with them, and I don't mind that they eat the hazelnuts before I even know they're ripe. But the plants the birds like the best are the towering and very dense stands of (non-native) bamboo lining the side and back fence: they provide shelter from hawks, owls, and other predators. This spring, spotted towhees and song sparrows nested in several of the clumps, down near the base of the culms.

    I've gotten to the point where all natives are welcome, but I won't tear out any of my "tame" plants to please them. They're on their own. After all, it is a jungle out there -- and they're more than holding their own.

    (In the photos, mingled with the exotics on page two are thimbleberry, and native red-cedar; page three has western red-cedar (trunk visible only) with a native douglas fir behind); page four has western lady ferns and sword ferns.)

    Here is a link that might be useful: A few photos of my mixed ancestry garden,

  • huachuma
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam,

    I also grow both "natives" and non natives; about half and half. I live in the Sacramento Valley of California and we usually don't get any precipitation between the end of May and the beginning of November, so everything has to be watered unless you want only oak trees and dried bunch grasses for the summer, (a slight exaggeration)... There are many beautiful native annuals/perennials and shrubs that flower here in the spring, but they're already drying-up for this year.

    The plantings of non-natives has actually enlarged the range of a number of birds that normally would only be able to use wetland areas and higher elevations in the mountains during the summer months; various species of hummingbirds as one example. Pacific Treefrogs are also able to utilize a much larger area that they could historically due to all the moist micro-climates that suburban yards have created.

    And, don't let folks scare you about the invasiveness issue: I can't imagine my bananas, pitcher plants, and other tropicals escaping into the surrounding landscape. It's sometimes all I can do to keep them alive with raised beds and mulching. Now if I was trying to raise these plants in an area more similar to their natural habitat I might be asking for trouble.

    The main problem with invasives that we have in the area are from people trying to grow non-native "Mediterranean-style" plants that are more adapted to the wet winter/dry summers that we experience.

    And the most invasive plant that I ever brought in to the garden was a native Erigeron, (Fleabane), when I lived in Arizona. I could not keep up with it and finally had to spray it all after a couple of years just to keep it out of my neighbors' yards.

    Please remember that a "native" is truly only native if it occurs naturally in YOUR area.

    Happy growing!

    Mike

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Helllo again :-)

    Well I am glad my question has started a discussion of the native vs non native issue. What I am getting out of it, is that we all seem to be in agreement that none of us wants our ecosystems to be damaged or destroyed. None of us wants to see invasive plants taking over the native plant communities. I think we all agree that there are plants that are recognized as invasive. Lots of lists around of plants that have already proved to be invasive. So it appears that what people disagree with is the "potentially" invasive plants. I think as Rose said, where to draw the line?

    Yes, Elaine does have a point. There may be plants that are not on an invasive list yet, but could become a problem in the future. Maybe what Elaine is trying to say is that we don't want to fall into the trap of thinking that all we have to do is pay attention to the invasive list and not concern ourselves with plants that could have the potential to get onto the list. I agree with that too.

    I guess where I don't agree, is to take the approach then that all non native plants WILL become invasive, and to be on the safe side, we should all simply stop growing plants that are not natives. To me, that is a pretty extreme approach and I am not convinced that it is necessary. And it is asking a LOT of people to expect them to do that.

    A number of posts seem to be trying to convince me to use native plants. If someone missed it in my earlier posts, I am already convinced to use natives and to use as many of them as I can. I have already purchased 18 native perennials and 15 native shrubs. I want to hear more about the natives I might enjoy growing. For even though I have purchased these plants, I have not "grown" them yet, or lived with them, so I am trying to anticipate what I am going to experience with them. Also looking for more information on natives that I haven't bought yet, or haven't considered yet. At this point though, my focus is whether to add non natives in with the natives, as the natives alone have not filled my wish list for what I want in the yard.

    I have always been cautious of invasive plants even when I didn't know they were invading native plant communities. I can't keep up with the extra work an invasive plant brings, so I have always tried to use well behaved plants. I have always gardened organically. I rarely ever buy impulsively, I shop with a list that I research out before I shop.

    Jill, you mention lilacs being invasive in North Dakota. I would bet that people in North Dakota must be aware of the problem. They must see lilacs bushes popping up all over the place. Just as I am very aware of Burning Bush here, that it pops up all over the place. As for lilacs, here in New England that isn't the case. It has been my experience that lilacs stay put. I have not read any reports of woodlands or fields in this area being discovered as overrun with lilacs. So using my own common sense with a sincere sense of responsibility, I come to the conclusion that I can grow lilacs without them becoming a problem for anyone. Someone else mentioned that some of the problem with some of the non-natives, is that they are sterile and don't provide food. If they are sterile, then how can they become invasive? Does every plant have to provide food? Azaleas are native, and they don't fruit, so should I leave them off my list?

    Jill, you suggest that "with a little effort, almost every cool exotic can be replaced with an equally cool native". So far, I am not finding that to be so. First of all, it takes a LOT of effort. A LOT of commitment and willingness to change. I think that anyone asking people to use only natives should be aware of how much they are asking of people. It may be that there are lots of cool natives and I am looking forward to discovering more and more of them, but I still don't see that they are actually replacements for a favorite non native.

    I wonder if people understand the attachment people have for plants? Plants can become part of your history and memories. Some of the best memories as children can be the smell of honeysuckle. My mother who passed away 8 years ago, LOVED lilacs and they brought her joy every year, and I think of her every time I pass my lilac bush. So if you are going to ask me to stop growing them, you would have to do a WHOLE lot of convincing before I would be willing to make that sacrifice. You would have to prove to me that my lilac bush is causing a problem for local plant communities. Not that it might or that it does in North Dakota.

    There is one more aspect of this whole problem that bothers me and I just want to put it out there for everyone to think about. Gardening is the one activity that I have always been able to count on to be relaxing and carefree and makes me happy. Every other part of my life might have some problem and concern that I have to struggle with, but not gardening. Yes, I may have to deal with weather and pests etc. but those have been minor problems that have not diminished the pleasure and rewards of gardening.

    This issue of the native plants vs non native plants and the disagreement and conflict that it brings with it is a very unwelcome intrusion into that pursuit. I see myself as an average person most of the time and I believe there are many people who see this issue the same way. I am more than willing to make an effort and be responsible, but there is a line that I don't want to cross, that will change gardening to a job that I don't want to get up in the morning to go to.

    I appreciate all those people out there and in this forum who are choosing to struggle with the natives issue. Those who figured out that native plant communities were in trouble and alerted the rest of us to it. I am sure it has been a lot of work. I think a lot has been accomplished. I am sure we can continue to make progress in solving this problem if we work together. If some of you are convinced that something is a problem, then keep sharing the information you have that makes you think so. I will keep listening and trying to do the best I can. If we all do that, we should be ok.

    Adam

  • sam_md
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's a simple rule to follow: if you are considering a Eurasian native which produces berries be very cautious. Such berries can be very attractive to birds and soon seedlings will be popping up everywhere. This includes trees,shrubs and vines among others. Unfortunately the berries are precisely the reason some gardeners buy the plants to begin with. Adam can find out what is a problem in his state by logging onto NEWFS website. NEWFS is in Framingham MA Adam should visit as much as possible. An organization that has been around since 1900 has a proven track record of accuracy.
    Sam

    Here is a link that might be useful: New England WFS Invasive Page

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Sam,

    Thanks so much for the link. I had a book out of the library on Creating Natural Landscapes and it had the full list of what is on the invasive list, but I do forget and have to keep referencing it. The link makes it easier.

    I agree about plants that produce berries. The only shrubs I have bought that berry are natives. There are some volunteer plants that birds deposited in our yard and they berry, but I am planning on pulling them out. I don't even know what they are, but they seed all around them.

    Thanks Sam, I plan on making the trip out to Garden in the Woods more often. How come you are so familiar with NEWFS when you are from Maryland? Did you used to live here?

    Adam

  • jillmcm
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    NEWFS and Garden in the Woods are probably familiar to most people who have been gardening with natives for a while, regardless of where they live. They're a tremendous resource and you MUST read William Cullina's books. Funny and a superb resource. The Lady Bird Johnson (National) Wildflower Center in Austin, TX is also a wonderful resource for folks interested in natives, regardless of what part of the country you live in.

    I think that the more you read, Adam, and the more you visit places like Garden in the Woods, the more natives you'll find out about and the more you'll seek out. You're right that there isn't a "replacement" for every exotic that someone might want to grow, but I think there's likely to be something close. And it all comes down to what you want to get out of your garden at day's end. For many of us, that's a place where wildlife are welcome and sheltered and which does not present any possibility of negatively affecting our local environment. I didn't suddenly start gardening with natives only out of the blue - it was a resolve that grew over several years as I became more educated about the tremendous costs that invasive exotics exact from both the environment and our economy.

  • vegangirl
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam, I understand you concerns. We are just landscaping around a newly built house but on the other hand, we lived here 15 years ago in a mobile home and have some established flower beds, woodland garden, some trees, shrubs, etc. Naturally, when we came back, everything was covered with weeds and its taking time to unearth it all and see what survived and what didn't. All our our trees are native except one Cornus kousa that I planted since we came back. I plan to have a mix of native and non-native. We have been very successful attracting birds mainly due to the fact that we have a creek and a smaller stream that joins it, the woodland, some open meadow and we don't use any chemical fertilizers, pesticides, etc. We live in a rural area on 21 acres but our "yard" is about 2 acres. I'm sure an urban/surburban area is a different story altogether:-) We know that birds and other wildlife need food, water, and shelter. I think a couple of things that I(and maybe Adam also) would like to know:
    1. How can we make a thicket or brush pile look attractive?
    2. How can we make the area around the bird feeder more attractive and still safe for birds?

    My feeder is at the edge of a thicket of mixed plant life including blackberry, elderberry, black locust, sugar maple, and a bush I can't remember the name of. It's related to coralberry or Indian currant but has violet berries...Symp???? It was planted by my great-grandmother decades ago. I'm not sure if its native or if the birds even eat the berries but they LOVE the thicket. We can look out the den windows over the creek and watch the birds foraging in the thicket and the trees..song sparrows, Eastern towhees, chickadees, titmice, nuthatches, downy woodpeckers, red-bellied woodpeckers, blue jays, cardinals, indigo buntings, chipping sparrows, scarlet tanager, redstarts, yellow warblers, house and Carolina wrens, phoebes, pewees, pileatated woodpeckers, Northern yellowthroats, etc. We really enjoy the birdlife but we have had visitors look out the den windows, ooh and ahh over the creek view and say, "That's going to be SO nice when you get all that mess cleared out!" I don't plan to clear "that mess" out but it would be nice if it could be made a little more attractive and keep the bird-attracting quality. I don't know if that is possible though. I had been thinking this week of posting a picture of the den window views and asking for advice on how to make it more attractive. Maybe I'll do that.

  • ellen_s
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't think it has to be an "all or nothing" ideology, if you choose not to be too serious about it.

    I take the approach that most things in my garden should be beneficial in some way. So even if a plant is not native, if it provides nectar for pollinators, or cover for birds, and it is not invasive (or obviously potentially invasive), AND I like it, it stays.

    If it is merely pretty, then it doesn't hold much attraction to me personally...there are plenty of plants that are pretty but provide benefit to the environment.

    Ellen

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks to all for offering so much input on this and other threads I have posted. I know it takes time and attention to keep up with a thread so I really appreciate it. I have been reading and thinking about all the different points of view and experiences and getting alot out of it.

    Jill, thanks to you and Sam for encouraging me to use Garden in the Woods more. I am hoping to do that. I was looking over their online list of natives for sale and they sell out pretty early in the season on some of them. I did find a few more things that I would like to get, now it's just a question of getting over there before they are gone.

    I applaud the commitment you have to growing only natives. I am very happy that is working out so well for you. I wish you lived next door and I could come visit your garden..lol. I also don't want to be part of the problem. As I said before, I think we agree about everything except whether or not non natives are all invasive. I have a feeling that if I read 10 books on the topic, I would find differing opinions on that question even among experts. If the offical consensus was that anything other than a native is a problem, then there wouldn't be a need for an invasive list. We would all just be instructed to grow nothing but natives. Perhaps when I read 10 books, I might develop a different opinion on the question, as you have, but that is a process that will take some time. Right now, the opinion I have is based on some information and some common sense. Right now, is when I have to choose and install new shrubs in my yard.

    If there are plants that are not on the invasive list that some of you feel should be, then I suggest you list them and why. I just don't think it is fair to suggest to everyone that they should only use natives without backing it up with solid information that supports that. Or to suggest it, when there are experts in the field who don't agree with that position.

    I will be happy to have a yard that welcomes wildlife, and I do not want to grow a plant that will end up seeding into a native plant community or even in my neighbor's yard. But as the post from vegangirl that follows points out, the area that the wildlife loves, is described by visitors to her home as a "mess". If I need to grow natives that are going to look weedy and messy in my yard, then I at least need to plant something more attractive in front of them to disguise the mess. So what is that going to be? That is what I am trying to resolve. I am not finding natives at this time that are fitting the bill, not for lack of trying.

    So I am still considering using some non natives that will not be a problem. I thought this forum would be able to point me in a good direction and make some suggestions but many of you have already determined for yourselves that you would rather stay away from non natives entirely, so I guess that is not going to work.

    Vegangirl has a 2 acre "yard" in a rural setting. If I planted blackberries on my less than a 1/4 acre property, I would be in big trouble. So I have to be careful of what I will end up with. I feel comfortable to grow an elderberry, but I am doing so blindly on the recommendations of others. I have never seen a mature elderberry or even one in bloom or with fruit on it. I saw my first elderberry when I bought one in a container this spring and it was only a few shoots coming out of the ground. Do you think there are any landscape professionals who would attempt to use 15 bushes in a landscape plan, that they had never even seen before, let alone ever used? So I don't think I am being unreasonable to have a problem with that. The fact that I am willing to do that should certainly say something about the commitment I have to doing the right thing.

    I am using native viburnums, elderberry, clethra, hydrangea, lindera, gray dogwood, and ninebark. I have deep shade, part shade basically with a ring of silver maples surrounding my property among other trees. Only one of which is on my small 1/4 acre property. Add to that clay soil and a 6.4ph and none of these conditions are making it easy for me. A lot of the shrub recommendations have been for large shrubs. I can only use a few large shrubs. Already I have the lindera and the gray dogwood and two serviceberries that are large. I don't have enough sun for a lot of the berry bushes, including some viburnums and elderberries. Also many of the viburnums look very similar to each other, same green color, same white blossoms. I will be trying to use native vines and native perennials, ferns, to fill in around the shrubs while they are growing in, so that will help.

    I am planning on trying to add a variegated dogwood, and I wish I had room for a variegated pagoda dogwood, they are very attractive, plus I can't find one and Garden in the Woods doesn't have one either. People have hinted that variegated plants are not a good idea, but no one has actually explained, what is so wrong with variegated native shrubs? I would assume that plants cross in the wild all the time, and that some of the variations are found in nature, they haven't all been "engineered". Just looking at the violas that self seed in my yard, tells me that.

    I want some dark foliage and asked for ideas for that in native plants, and instead I received the suggestion that I should just accept plain green and I will learn to love it. Only one person suggested the Ninebark 'Diablo' that is native, and that person was someone who didn't hold to the "only natives' belief. No one thought to suggest the perennial dark leaved cimicifuga, which is a native also. Even Garden in the Woods carries the Diablo Ninebark and that is a compromise for me too. It is not my favorite shrub. Half of the shrubs I have bought, I wouldn't have chosen simply on appearance alone. Maybe I will change my mind after they have grown and developed in my own yard, but for now, I need some shrubs and perennials that I KNOW will give me what I want and are safe for the environment.

    Adam

  • Elly_NJ
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The bottom line is, native plants are better for native wildlife and the ecology of the area. At the very best, non-natives are like cotton candy. Pretty, with no nutritional (or intrinsic ecological) value. Use native plants if you have intentions of enhancing your backyard for the lives that share the planet with you, and replacing what was taken away.

    There is no sacrifice in beauty. There is enrichment of diversity.

    This is a picture of one of my old modest wildflower gardens. The only non-native - the Buddleia on the left - was there when we moved in, and died after a harsh winter. This picture was taken in August, after most of the Monarda was finished. (You can see some on the left.)

    Many people here, Elaine in particular, have devoted much more space to natives, and I too would love to see them. As I said, mine were modest efforts.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Rudbeckia, Echinacea, Eupatorium maculatum, Asclepias incarnata

  • jillmcm
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam, can I just say thanks for being so obviously thoughtful about this whole process? As much as I have determined that an "all natives" approach works for me, I do try hard not ot be dogmatic about it, because we all have different needs, opportunities and ideas of what "attractive" is. I am lucky enough to have room to plant, a local native plant nursery and resources to work with, but not everyone does. And I'll freely admit that my idea of what attractive is has changed dramatically over the years.

    Anyway, I can't possibly answer all the issues that have been raised, but my suggestion for the future is this - if you have a specific need, e.g., dark foliage, ask us. We'll help. If you don't like the native options that folks come up with, then by all means investigate non-natives if the look of the plant is that important to you. Just be sure to check a reputable resource to see if the plant is invasive in your area (that's important - for example, butterfly bushes are invasive here in PA, but apparently not in MA, because of the harsher winters. So location matters).

    I think some folks object to cultivars for a number of reasons, chief among them being that the plants are often sterile or are developed by crossing with a non-native. Variegated cultivars of native species can be absolutely beautiful, but in my limited experience, they don't seem to be as tough as the original species types. You'll have to weigh the pros and cons for your individual situation. Some cultivars are tougher. Sometimes the only way to find out is to plant it and see how it does :)

    You don't have to settle for plain green in your natives either. There are heuchera (coral bells) cultivars in many shades from deep purple to pale green; sand cherries have burgundy foliage; smoketree (Cotinus) has burgundy shading to its leaves; and there are others out there. Yes, this is a search that may take you a while, so I understand wanting to just stick in something like a Japanese maple and be done with it. But those darned trees seed themselves everywhere, so you have to ask yourself if you want the color at the expense of pulling seedlings.

    You are on the right track, Adam. Do try reading some of the great books out there, especially Cullina's. Do google searches, visit natural areas, find more great nurseries. It's all part of the fun.

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Elly,

    Thanks for the link, I was looking forward to seeing your garden, but the link didn't work for me.

    It is great that you have been able to establish a garden that you don't consider a sacrifice in beauty. You suggest that if the only attribute a non native has is beauty than that is not a good enough reason to have it. I guess I would just caution you not to assume that everyone feels the same way.

    First of all, the beauty of some non natives is very significant, and secondly, for many people the whole reason they garden is for the "beauty" of the plants. In some instances people have begun gardening solely because the beauty of one particular plant has affected them so much that they just had to start growing it. Notice how many people become collectors of one particular group of plants, like roses or daylilies etc. Then along comes a native plants enthusiast suggesting they shouldn't grow roses or daylilies.

    Gardening is different things to different people and if you hope to encourage more people to begin to challenge their long held beliefs and gardening practices and try natives, then it helps to remember that they might feel differently than you do.

    I look forward to seeing your garden if you can get your link working and I too would love to see Elaine's garden and Jill's garden and anyone else who grows natives.

    Thanks,
    Adam

  • Elly_NJ
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Adam,

    I don't know why that link doesn't work. I'll try again.

    I think what I said was in answer to your question. You asked if you have to sacrifice "attractive" to grow for wildlife.

    No, you don't. Not at all.

    I agree with you, that people garden for many different reasons. Some reasons may be based on their ideas of cultivating beauty around them. However, I wrote that native plants add to the overall ecology of an area, and that beauty is not sacrificed.

    Anyhow, I will try that picture again.

    Here is a link that might be useful: One more try...

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jill,

    Thank you for your patience and taking the time to have this conversation with me about it. :-) Okay, so clearly my first choice is to find a native that I can use and I will continue to be looking for more. But if I do try looking for non natives I can use, it would seem that the people most likely to be keeping track of whether a non native is a potential problem, are also the same people who are devoted to natives only..lol. Is there a resource, book, website, or organization you can recommend that is the most careful about their recommendations for the appropriateness of a non native? Could I simply use the NEWFS website and their list of invasive plants? Or is that not enough?

    As for cultivars, I can understand why people object to them to some extent. I have often thought in the past few years, that they are coming out with way too many exotic cultivars. I was looking into crabapple trees a few years back and found that many of the cultivars are developed for attractiveness of the fruit and double flowers, but the birds don't eat the berries because they are too big or something. So I never did get one, for that reason and others. So I do understand what you mean.

    Still, I noticed that even the NEWFS nursery offers cultivars and that surprised me. They have Agastache 'Black Adder', a number of Aquilegia cultivars, Coreopsis 'Moonbeam' and 'Creme Brule' which is a very new one. They have Dicentra 'King of Hearts' which is a new cultivar that has a golden foliage, I believe. By the way, they have Joe Pye Weed, which I have avoided because it has a reputation as being aggressive and invasive. Heucheras... 'Amethyst Mist' 'Black Beauty' etc. I just bought an 'Amethyst Mist' from a NON native nursery.

    Don't forget, there are also some problems with certain natives that make them difficult to use. For instance Cornus florida was a very popular gorgeous native, but now the disease issues makes it very unlikely people can use it and therefore the effort to come up with a cultivar that can replace it. I have read objections to those particular cultivars here. Lilium canadense I just brought home from NEWFS and I suddenly found four dreaded red lily beetles on it this morning. Trying to grow lilies in an organic yard, is no longer an easy thing, so I am considering taking it back. I don't want to fight with lily beetles every year.

    I bought a Lobelia gerardii, and when I didn't see it on the NEWFS list, I wondered if I had made a mistake and bought a non native. I checked it out, and remembered that the reason I bought it was it was a cross between two natives. The cardinalis, and the siphilitica. NEWFS offers three cultivars of Amelanchier, x 'Autumn Brilliance', 'Princess Diana', and 'Regent' which are offered by most of the local non native nurseries. So evidently Garden in the Woods doesn't have a problem with cultivars, and isn't Bill Cullina the expert at Garden in the Woods, and still working there?

    Well, I agree, I want tough plants. But to me, I would value the variegated form of a native plant enough that if most of my other shrubs were tough, I would invest the money in trying one in the yard to see how it does, as you have suggested.

    Yes, I have bought 3 dark leaved Heucheras and love them, sand cherries need a little more sun than I have, and I don't know why I haven't considered a smoketree, I should think about that. What about a 'Forest Pansy' red bud? Isn't that burgundy leaves and isn't that a native in New England? I also thought that was a small understory tree that will grow with some shade?

    A plant that will turn out to seed itself everywhere is not what I am looking for. Believe me I avoid an aggressive plant that makes more work for me, due to health issues. I find it is not always easy to find out before you make a purchase if something reseeds like that. It isn't information a nursery is anxious to tell you about and when I have done searches looking for that information, it is sometimes frustrating and time consuming. You can find all the info you need about sun/soil/height etc. but that one little piece of information you want is not readily available. Where do you find reliable information about that?

    As for fun..have you ever heard that saying... "Are we having fun yet?" [g]
    Just kidding...you are right. I actually have noticed your consistent good attitude and you don't seem to get ruffled about the conflict on non native topics. I appreciate that a LOT. I would like to have more fun with it. I think once I resolve the non native issue for myself, then I can have more fun with it. I am already enjoying the new native discoveries. I bought a crested iris at NEWFS and have it outside waiting to be planted and just noticed the flowers opening this morning..it was SO pretty. :-)

    I also put up that milk bottle dripper over a saucer yesterday. My daughter got a kick out of it. She was working in the yard for me, pulling out forsythias yesterday and noticed it. I got the holes too big and it emptied out in about 20 minutes..lol. But she was funny, right away she said, " we are going to have to get a prettier bottle" ;-)

    Adam

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Okay, this is my last post today...lol.

    Elly, I just saw your photo of your garden. VERY pretty! You did a good job. I just have to laugh at how differently we look at things.

    I have one little bed in the front of my house that is full sun. I made an attempt to put in a flower bed that was long bloom, low maintenance, easy care plants. I had great success with it for the first few years, it was gorgeous. I had all of the plants you have in yours, except the Eupatorium. Isn't that Joe Pye Weed? Plus other plants..coreopsis moonbeam, daylilies, thyme, lavender, sedums, etc etc.

    Well it was very long blooming and easy. It would start blooming in April and something would be in bloom the whole summer right into October. The best part was I didn't have to do anything to it, once I just cut back the dead stems after the winter and mulched.

    After a few years, the rudbeckia started spreading everywhere and choking out anything around it. I couldn't even keep the echinacea doing well. It barely increased in size. The Asclepias incarnata reseeds like crazy. It was everywhere, and I really didn't even find it that atttractive. It also didn't attract butterflies the way the butterfly bush I had did. I have tried to dig out the rudbeckia a couple of times, but I keep missing some of it and it is right back again. So you are growing three plants that I wouldn't even grow again due to the work they require, and yet, I have a Russian Sage plant in that bed and in 10 years, I have only found 2 seedlings around the base of the plant.

    Now that I think of it, it is really funny, that I had all that rudbeckia and echinacea in the bed, and yet there was only one plant in that garden that always had a gold finch on it every year...annual Cosmos.

    I love the look of your garden, don't get me wrong. It is very beautiful and I wish I could grow it but I just can't. [I am growing it now..lol...but still planning on getting the rudbeckia out of it, and maybe the Ascepias, haven't decided.] Thought I might try the tuberosa instead. If I had a larger property, maybe I could put them in a corner and just let them go, but in my situation I can't.

    As for the question of sacrificing attractiveness, maybe I am phrasing my words wrong. You are right, what you are growing IS attractive. But maybe to me, that is not what I find the "most attractive" to me. Maybe I like the looks of a Japanese garden, or a gorgeous rose garden, or a formal herb garden, etc. etc. I am used to having lots of choices of gardening styles and thinking of gardening in terms of native only seems to suddenly narrow the choices down considerably.

    Thanks very much for the photo of your garden. I loved it! Was that Perovskia I see in the back of the bed or something else? The Joe Pye Weed really does add a lot to the bed.

    Adam

  • jillmcm
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam, I'm enjoying our "conversation" as well :) I'm not one of those people that thinks all cultivars are evil - some are better than others, though, and I generally figure out if something works in my garden by planting it and seeing how it does. Expensive method, unfortunately... I definitely prefer cultivars that retain the species characteristics and that are fertile. Otherwise, the wildlife benefit is not as significant. But if the blooms are a little bigger or the leaves brighter, hey, that's fine.

    I think that we may have somewhat different definitions of invasive that we're using. Invasive in the sense that most native plant aficionados use it means that it will spread into ecosystems where it would not naturally be found, e.g., an Asian plant happily spreading all over PA. Plants native to a locale cannot be invasive in this sense, but yes, they can be aggressive spreaders in their preferred habitats. Rudbeckia and echinacea both will fill their niches handily. I happen to value that ability of theirs, and use them in mass plantings. Same goes for monarda, but it's now spreading a bit too much, and I'm going to have to dig some. Still, I would rather be removing it from my lawn than something else from the whole neighborhood.

    Joe Pye Weed (Eupatorium spp.) can be an aggressive spreader in moist conditions. It is generally very well behaved in typical garden soil. I have several cultivars and they're pollinator central once they begin blooming. But they need room to really show to their best.

    I understand what you mean about being used to certain garden styles. I still tend to have fairly traditional garden beds, but I am moving away from that and starting to replicate natural conditions more as my tastes change. Still, some folks do like their formal herb gardens or what have you, and far be it for me to tell them no. I just hope that they are careful with what they plant, that they research their plantings and check for invasiveness, and that they remove a plant that starts to spread beyond their yard.

    In my opinion, every native plant helps. I don't expect people to jump in with both feet and rip out all of their established plantings and forswear their favorite plants. But I do hope that people like you will continue to experiment with natives, and to research alternatives for exotics. I think that once you discover how many more birds, bugs and animals grace your garden, you may want to add even more natives. I hope so, at least.

    Oh, last thought. There are lots of possible lists of exotics to look at, and I find that it makes sense to check a couple. NEWFS is a great source for you in MA, and there are probably other New England sites to check. I've linked to one below.

    Here is a link that might be useful: NE Invasive Plant Index

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jill,

    Thanks for the link. I have two things on the list that I knew I had which we inherited...one being the Norway Maple and didn't know it was on the list until the past few years. The other is one burning bush, that I am planning on taking out anyway.
    There was one that I was considering putting in the yard at one time or another but never got around to it. Rosa rugosa. I think I could live without that one.

    I was almost homefree, until I looked up Chelidonium majus L. ..the common name Celandine sounded familiar. I have a yellow spring plant that I thought was a native. Now I am not sure. I looked up this one and the photo looks a lot like what I have. There is also a native celandine though and I can't tell if I have one or the other. The one I have sure does pop up everywhere. I think the invasive one has orange sap when you break it open, so I am going to check that out tomorrow.

    So, I feel pretty good about it. I have one plant, one tree, and one shrub in my yard that need to go, and none of them is something I actually introduced into the yard. So I think that is pretty good. But I know there are more things to be concerned about...I do still have one Butterfly Bush which wasn't on the list. One that I don't even like actually. But if it isn't on the Massachusetts list even as a potentially invasive, does that mean I don't have to worry about it?

    Strange though, I saw one on the list called Silphium perfoliatum L. The cup plant. It sounded very familiar like a prairie plant I read about once. I looked up the NEWFS list of plants available and bingo! They actually have this one on their list of plants for sale. Don't know what to make of that??

    I did check out your list and the list on the NEWFS which lists all plants that are considered invasive, likely invasive and potentially invasive. I didn't have any more on those lists either. Or any that I was considering putting in.

    You mention that you sometimes try a plant in your yard and see how it does. What are you looking for? And then that people should remove a plant when it spreads beyond their yard. How would you know that a plant spreads beyond your yard?

    Adam

  • Elly_NJ
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam,

    Asclepias incarnata attracts butterflies. In fact, with other species of milkweed, it is the only thing monarchs live on as caterpillars.

    I wish you all the luck in the world with whatever you plant.

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Elly,

    I don't doubt that it does attract butterflies or that monarchs live on it. I was only sharing my own personal experience with the plant. I have had it for more than 5 years and have yet to see a monarch or a caterpillar on it. When they are in bloom, I have seen tons of flying insects that sort of look like a wasp on them and that is all.

    For me the plant is not working due to the fact that the only place I have enough sun for it is in my front yard in one little 12x12 bed bordering my driveway on one side, the street another, our front walk on another, and lawn on the fourth side. I can't allow it to spread out, and the reseeding is only making more work for us. That would be the reason I would be thinking of taking it out.

    I am sorry if I offended you in any way. I was sincere when I said I find your garden VERY attractive and wish I could grow one similar to it. Obviously I like the plants, I initially chose the exact same plants you have, which means we have the same taste. [g]

    Everyone's situation is different is all. I am sorry if your attempt to help was frustrated by my response. I feel frustrated myself with the situation I have to work with.

    Adam

  • jillmcm
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam, some plants native to one part of North America can be invasive when introduced to another part of North America outside its range. That's why some North American plants may be listed as invasive for your area, because they don't naturally occur there and spread aggressively.

    Kudos for taking out the Norway maple. They are the bane of my existence. We spend thousands cutting down the mature ones and hours digging and pulling the seedlings. They have had a very detrimental effect on the native spring ephemerals where I live, as they leaf out sooner than the native trees and shade out the understory too much.

  • loris
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam,

    I'm interested in less formal looking gardens, so I don't remember if the book "The American Woodland Garden: Capturing the Spirit of the Deciduous Forest" by Rick Darke included formal styles or not, but either way I think it might be worth your taking a look at it. It really made me realize my yard could look much better than it had been, and I have been getting more compliments on my yard since using some of the ideas I got from it. Its focus is more on native plants, but as you know many of the good wildlife plants are native.

    I'm attaching a link to a tree and shrub search. You may find it helpful, since among the criteria you can specify are wildlife value, PH, and sun exposure. The associated plant profiles give invasiveness information that's geared towards Connecticut. I find a large overlap between the invasive plants they list, and the plants invasive here in NJ. The profiles also honestly list the liabilities of a plant, including such things as a tendency to become leggy and other traits that make plants look less attractive.

    Good luck with your yard, and I'm sure you'll be able to keep it fun for yourself (at least most of the time)

    Here is a link that might be useful: Univ of Conn., plant DB search

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi,

    Is it Lori? Loris?

    This is so funny! I was just over to the Natives forum this morning and found your post that had this link to the UConn site. I was having a good time using it already. It is really helpful. It has a really easy to use interface and lets you come up with all kinds of lists of plants and then you can compare lists.

    Yes, I LOVED the fact that it labeled plants as invasive and if it is invasive in CT, I am pretty sure it would be here in MA too.

    Thanks so much for bringing that to my attention..very thoughtful. I hope you didn't have to read through this whole LONG thread to get to the part where I was looking for a resource for plant info...lol.

    Oh, and I will have to look into that book you mention. I bet my library has it. So what did you do with your yard that was different?

    Adam

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jill,

    I checked out that Celandine today and [boo hoo] it is the non native invasive one! It is all over my yard and in my neighbors yards at the fence line too.

    About the native plants from another part of the country being invasive in your own area, I can understand that, I just found it odd that the NEWFS would be selling a native that is on an invasive list.

    I have some more bad news for you. When I was in the Natives forum, I saw some more lists that were posted and checked those out, and I was shocked to see a Cornus racemosa on one!

    As for the Norway Maple, beleive me it isn't going to do much good, my neighborhood is FULL of them. So I wouldn't be able to grow any ephemerals under one? What about silver maples? My neighbors have 5 of them between two yards and two trees that have half their canopy over ours.
    Will I be able to grow ephemerals under them?

    I was in the tree forum and they scared me telling me I wouldn't be able to grow anything under these trees. They were telling me about how the root systems are so aggressive and will choke out anything I try to amend or fertilize etc. Of course, I didn't get that input until AFTER I bought all these shrubs and plants. Which are still waiting to go in. *sigh*

    Adam

  • jillmcm
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You can grow things under maples, but you're going to have better success of you plant things that are adapted to growing in that situation - spring ephemerals typically fit the bill. The problem with the Norways specifically is that they leaf out very early and very heavily, and the ephemerals don't get their grace period of growing and blooming in. A native maple will leaf out later and the ephemerals will do better.

    Also, the folks on the tree forum may have been talking about directly under the trees, right by the trunks. That's just not a good idea in general. But further out towards the edge of the drip line, many plants will flourish. Again, look for species that area adapted to that kind of growing situation already.

    Bummer about the celandine - the native has fuzzy seed pods and large leaves, the non-native has smaller, finer leaves and smooth pods. I have the native in my yard, but have seen the other growing rampant around here.

    I think that you're going to have to take some of the invasives lists with a grain of salt, or bearing in mind location. Cornus racemosa is an eastern tree, so yes, it could become invasive out west - but not where you are. Again, NEWFS may be selling eastern plants that are invasive out west or down south, but not in NE - and since they don't do mailorder (at least I didn't think they did), they don't have to worry about the plants ending up in gardens where they could pose a problem.

    And remember that invasive has a specific meaning that is not the same as "aggressive" - but many people use the two interchangeably, I've found. A plant can be native to an area and still be an aggressive spreader, but that does not mean it's invasive. It's just very good at filling its niche. Anyway, there's always more for all of us to learn! Off to pull more true invasives - Japanese honeysuckle, garlic mustard and purple dead nettle - from my woods.

  • loris
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    loris is just my first name followed by the first letter of my last name. Glad you liked the Uconn link. Its definitely one of my favorites.

    I actually found most of this thread interesting to read through since it hit on so many topics I am often thinking about.

    I main things I got from Rick DarkeÂs book were:

    1. What a difference having fuller shrub layer would make in my yard. There were (and still are) too many parts of my yard with groundcovers and trees, but nothing to smooth the transition between them. (In hindsight, it seems this should have been obvious to me but it wasnÂt). Your garden may not have such a simple problem, but the pictures may still give you some ideas

    2. I got a new appreciation of some of the plants I already had. Some of the pictures are just beautiful. For example it made me pay attention to how spicebush (Lindera benzoin) looks when its leaves are yellow and the sun is shining through them, and gave me an appreciation for ferns in their fall coloring

    3. It helped me view moss as an asset not a problem. I donÂt remember how much of this was the book, and how much was certain photographs IÂve seen on GardenWeb, and seeing wonderful use of moss at a garden not too far from me that had an open house to benefit the Garden Conservancy

    I ended up adding what I consider flashier cultivars of some native shrubs. These things are obviously a matter of taste, since I really like how ninebark Diablo (Physocarpus opulifolius 'Monio') looks, although finding out that this native cultivar came to us by way of Germany made me wonder about what exactly is a native plant. IÂve also recently added Red Chokeberry (Aronia arbutifolia ÂBrilliantissima) which I really like for the fall color, and red twig dogwood (Cornus sericea 'Isanti') which I like all year, but of course especially during the winter when it gives one of the few bits of color other than green in my garden. I have a feeling though that within a year or two, I may be in agreement with Elaine about cultivars. On the other hand, as IÂve seen people point out in other posts, a native cultivar, at least is less likely to be an invasive plant, and in some cases does supply some of the benefits of native plants.

    DonÂt know if youÂll have the same experience, but I often find that I fall in love with plants when I really see them, as opposed to seeing pictures of them in books. I had this happen with Eastern columbine, (Aquligia Canadensis), and blue lobelia (Lobelia siphilitica).

    Sorry you're disappointed about not being able to plant your shrubs in the location you planned. Sometimes when I've bought things that didn't work out for the spot I had in mind, the plants ended up working well elsewhere.

    Maybe ferns would work for near the Norway maple roots. I know I have a mix of red maples and Norway maples in my yard. I must admit I don't keep track of which are which, but I think I have ferns under just about all of them. Some of these are behind the trees, so it's likely they sort of planted themselves.

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jill,

    Well, I hope when you mention a native maple you are referring to the silver maples. That is what the neighbors all have in their yards. I don't have any except one Norway.

    I should have both, area directly in the root zone of these trees, and areas further away closer to the dripline of these trees. I hope I am siting these shrubs right.

    So aggressive is just when a plant spreads by roots just where it is, and invasive is when it travels to other locations by seed?

    Thanks a lot, and hope you got a lot of weeds out today.
    :-)

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Loris,

    Rick Darke's book sounds great. I looked in the library data base, and they have that book and I've made a request for it. He has 6 books in the system, a number of them about grasses.

    I enjoy moss and have some of it around the yard. When we removed some of the old shrubs, some of the moss is exposed to more sun and looks as though it may be burning up a little. Not sure if I should try to move it.

    I was thinking of getting an Aronia 'Brilliantissima', but someone here told me the birds don't really like the berries much. But I suppose, if I have a lot of shurbs for the birds, I can add the Aronia just for the beautiful red foliage. Especially since I have to get rid of the burning bush whose red fall foliage I really love.

    I also wanted to get Cornus 'Ivory Halo', which is a compact variegated red twig dogwood. I am not sure if that is the Cornus alba or not. I think the alba is the tatarian dogwood that is invasive and not a native. So I am looking for an alternative. I see the Cornus serieca Isanti you mention is a red twig and very full and attractive in leaf, but not variegated. There is a 'Silver and Gold' cultivar that is variegated that I would like to see. But it is not red twigged, but yellow. Hmmmm... according to this article I am just reading, there are no really good cultivars for varigated foliage that have good red twig color anyway, including the 'Ivory Halo'.

    Yes I also feel very different about a plant when I can see it growing. Also having a plant and going through a season with it and watching it grow also nails down whether you really enjoy a plant or not. I have had that happen with plants I thought I wasn't too keen on. I couldn't see what was the joy of 'Autumn Joy' sedum until I had one. It wasn't quite my style, but it performs so great all season...from the tiny rosettes forming at the base of the plant after it blooms to the first bright green color in spring and it's neat unblemished appearance and quick and large growth spurts over the summer, to the blooms covered with bees in the fall followed by the darkening drying seedheads. I have also been amazed at the sturdiness of the plant. I left two of them in pots outside my front door one year, and one of the pots was under the corner of an awning that always dripped rain into it. Over the winter the pot would fill up and freeze solid, so I was sure everything in it was a goner. Amazingly the sedums came back perfectly. So I have left them in the same pots for the past 3 winters and they survive without a problem and no care.

    Yes, I am looking around for new places for the shrubs that won't be able to go where I planned. As for ferns, I am going to try some ferns. I just keep hearing that the soil around maple roots must be pretty dry and trying to choose ferns that can tolerate that.

    Thanks again for the link.
    :-)
    Adam

  • jillmcm
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam - aggressive is when a plant spreads very well (by any means). Invasive exotics are by definition aggressive, but natives can be aggresive too. For instance, jewelweed, a native impatiens, would grow all over my yard if I let it. It's not invasive - it's supposed to be here - but it is aggressive.

    Invasive is when a plant spreads in a location that it is not native to. Think of kudzu blanketing the south.

    There are many, many native maples. If the silver maples you're referring to are Acer saccharinum, then yes, they're native to eastern North America. It was a very popular street tree after WWII, but has lost favor in recent years because it is a tree with relatively weak wood and uninspiring fall color.

  • roseunhip
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    jillmcm, what would you say would be the best native alternate tree solution(s) for our cities to replace Norway maples with? Either as other maples or perhaps ashes? Would have to be resistant to pollution.
    I ADORE the Silver maple - even in the fall! - but I do realize that here in S-W Quebec, ice storms can be very bad in the cities some (a lot of) winters... limbs falling all over the place, and from great heights, etc.

  • jillmcm
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yeesh, roseunhip, I have no idea - I've never thought much about street trees (not living on a street) - I just came across that info on the silvers when I was doing the research for Adam (thanks to Bill Cullina for the info I regurgitated). I'll bet there are folks at NEWFS and other places like that that would have some great ideas, though, Cullina among them!

  • prairie_love
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi all, can I jump in here please?

    This thread is very interesting to me as I am in the process of developing my land and trying to learn about/incorporate natives as much as possible. But, like Adam, the original poster, I am seduced by the gorgeous perennials in garden stores and catalogs that may or may not be natives or may simply be a modern cultivar of a native. Anyway this is interesting.

    Elly, I followed the link to the photo of your garden - it's gorgeous! There was only one photo, did I do it wrong or is that all you posted? Can you post more? And some of the rest of you? Can you post links? I would love to get some more inspiration and I think Adam would also.

    Just a note, what I am planning (at the moment) is flashy close to the house (as long as it is not invasive) and becoming more and more native as I move away. I have about 3-4 acres to play with, so should be able to make the transition. One edge of the yard is "native" woodland, so that is the area I am most concerned with keeping natural. I would like to add some wildflowers to the woods, but am choosing only ones that are native to our area.

    Anyway, I'm rambling, but just because I've enjoyed this thread. Thanks.

    Ann (who is happy to see Elly and Jill here - I've seen you on the birding forum)

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi all again,

    Rose, I have the book Native Plants for the Northeast copyright 2005 out from the library. I thought it might have a list of good street trees in it, but it didn't. It does list a lot of native trees. A few maples.

    The list Acer nigrum, a black maple that has a natural range that begins in Southern Quebec. A large over 100ft tree. Acer pensylvanicum [Striped Maple] Very distinct bark ..a small tree, 25 ft. Natural range starting in Nova Scotia and southern Quebec. Acer rubrum [Red maple], to 60ft+ said to be the best maple for the widest range of growing conditions. It also has hybrids that are crosses with silver maples [A. x freemanii]. Natural range starting in Newfoundland and southeast Manitoba. Of course the sugar maple which is indicated not to be a good street tree, or to be tolerant of pollution.

    This book is not a complete offering of every native plant, but selected native plants. So you could find more info.

    Hi Ann, happy to see you jump into the discussion. I had a feeling I couldn't possibly be the only one who is struggling with these issues. Yes I would LOVE more photos and hope that I can get to the point where I can put some photos online.

    Wow what a great piece of land you have. Sounds wonderful. You are lucky! And you think you were rambling..look at how long some of my posts have been...lol

    Jill I didn't realize you did research for me. :-) How nice of you!

    Adam

  • roseunhip
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, AdamM321, for your research! I didn't know about those A. rubrum/saccharinum hybrids. Interesting to read, after your post, that, also, some varieties of rubrum are said to be more resistant to pollution than the original species.
    Driving my wife to work this morning, I took notice, in the residential hedges of Montreal, of how bad the Norway maple problem truly is here. The young shoots are just all over the place!! And the majority of adult specimens are ugly, sickly and half-defoliated!...

  • jillmcm
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just a quick note Adam - there's a new burgundy foliage cultivar of Cimicifuga out. Can't remember the name, but it was at a local nursery. Stunning color!

  • loris
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam,

    Didnt realize the main issue for Norway maples was the moisture. Took another look at my yard and some maples didnt have ferns, although maybe they would survive if I put them there. If you try ferns, from what I read Chiristmas ferns (Polystichum acrostichoides) deal with dry soil

    In case it helps any, when I transplant ferns, theres often moss with them. While I havent really monitored it, the moss seems to do ok.

    From a quick Google search it looks like the dogwood you mentioned is a type of Tartarian dogwood which isnt native. Im not sure if its invasive or not, didnt see invasiveness mentioned on a formal site, but then again didnt have time to look carefully tonight.

    Also wanted to mention to you that Aronia 'Brilliantissima' in the shade may be more orange in fall than burning bush. If my memorys right, the picture Im linking to shows the color that my plant ended up which I really like, but wasn't that close to burning bush's. The site does have a picture that shows a much redder color, but not sure you'd get it.

  • vonyon
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, what a great thread. I love that we can all discuss this intelligently with such varied and strong opinions and stay civil. I learn the most from these kinds of discussions.

    Adam, first of all, what Jill says is true for most of us. Many started just like you investigating this very issue and learning about it. It is not an evolution that we all came to overnight. It is nice to see that you have an open mind about it and are willing to think the whole argument through. If you stay here and keep reading, you will learn a lot. I think I've learned more here than in any book. Having said that I have a few suggestions of good books for you to read since you are interested in this issue. First, Noah's Garden......another is the Sand County Almanac. These are both written by people that have come to the native thing through an evolution of thought. You may find them interesting to read.

    A few things come to mind after reading this entire thread. First, everyone's idea of beauty is different. Unfortunately, like everything else, the media influences this and the American ideal of yard beauty is far from what works best for the environment. Most nurseries and Chem lawn would have us believing that manicured monoculture is what is the most beautiful. Then again the media would also have us believe that emaciated women are beautiful too, but that is another issue. ;o) So, don't be surprised if your tastes change as you come to appreciate the natives. There are many small native cultivars that might fit your situation to a tee. I think there are smaller versions of v. trilobum and arrowwood. I have even seen developers starting to plant the smaller trilobums!! Also, if you are looking to see elderberries, check the sides of the highways here in Massachusetts. Right around the time that your own is blooming, you will notice them along the highways growing wild. I think they are beautiful, but that is just me.

    Secondly, I had a lot of reading to catch up on here, so forgive me if this has already been stated. It seems like you already did this, but it is not entirely clear to me if you actually went to Garden in the Woods yet. If you want to see natives, that is the best place to do it. It is probably the thing that convinced my husband that natives could be done beautifully.

    Thirdly, not all non-natives are invasive. As has been pointed out many times here, most of our food crops are non-native (tomatoes for one). In all the years we have been planting them, they have never proven to be invasive in this part of the country. So, the problem comes in when a plant adapts to the climate through evolution and becomes invasive over time. I think it is possible, but certainly not for every plant. If you are concerned about a particular plant that is not native, definitely stay away from berrying plants.

    As for cornus racemosa.......it is beautiful, easy to grow and, yes, aggressive. It is native to this part of the country. It is the most beautiful hedgerow in my yard, and I can mow it down to the ground and have it grow back in five years of less. I would not recommend it for 1/4 acre though. It can take up a lot of space and seems to be the type of plant you may be trying to avoid. Although I think Elaine grows it successfully on a small lot.

    As for variegated leaves. I like them as well, but was cautioned to avoid too many because it makes the landscape too visually busy. Just a thought. I do think that variety of color and texture is probably the best bet.

    Good luck to you. As I mentioned in another thread, these are the kinds of threads that facillitate discussion and thought on this issue, and they are very important and encouraging to those of us that would like to see more people like you.

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello again,

    Sorry I haven't been keeping up with the thread. We had some storm damage at the beginning of the week and everything is upside down.

    Rose..my sympathies about the norway maples. We pull out seedlings year in, year out and have a hard time keeping up with them. And they really aren't the most attractive tree, the fall foliage is very disappointing for a maple and the canopy is too dense.

    Jill, thanks for the Cimicifuga recommendation. My daughter got me a dark leaved cimicifuga atropurpurea at NEWFS last weekend. VERY pretty. I am trying to figure out where the best placement will be before planting. I hope to get more of that. NEWFS plants were $7.50 for a qt size. Can't get a bunch when they are that price. So there is a NEW color? Will have to do a google search when I can get to it.

    Thanks Loris for the link on the Aronia. The color is quite nice on it even if not red. Since all the trees around my yard are yellow, anything other than yellow is great with me. [g]

    Thanks vonyon for your post. I am slowing down a little bit in the acquisition department. I have been to Garden in the Woods and brought home a V. 'Winterthur', a few native hydrangeas and some native perennials. Right now, we are still struggling to pull out about 140 feet of old shrubs to install new plantings. Most of that length is about 8ft wide, one point being 21ft wide, where one forsythia bush turned into 21x16 ft colony of shrubs. All of these shrubs had been on the property for 30 years and were past their usefulness. Some were rotted out, due to the height of the surrounding trees over the past 30 years and more shade than they could tolerate. Tons of saplings from Norway maples and privet and who knows what else. The yard has been very neglected. So this is probably the one and only time we will be renovating the yard. What a job!

    I bought about 16 shrubs back in April, after some initial research on wildlife plants that then led to more research on natives. Then bought a few more at NEWFS, and now am waiting to get everything I have in before trying to add any more. I will keep in mind the smaller versions of the natives you mention, thanks.

    Yesterday, our son took out the last of the forsythias and now we can finally install the shrubs that have been sitting in containers waiting since April. Most of them look a mess though from all of the caterpillars which are eating everything in site.

    Disappointing to hear about the nature of the cornus racemosa. That was one of three shrubs that we already planted..lol. I bought one after many recommendations on GardenWeb, with no cautions about it's aggressiveness. Well, I will give it plenty of room and hope for the best and keep the pruning lopers handy I guess.

    Yes, I am not looking for more than a few variegated shrubs.

    Hope everyone enjoyed a little sunshine the past few days.

    :-)
    Adam

  • vonyon
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam, Great choice on the winterthur!! Those are gorgeous. I wouldn't worry about the gray dogwood. You will not regret the choice if you already bought it. It is really an attractive hedge. Elaine uses it, and I believe she has a small property.

    I haven't seen the caterpillars yet. I haven't had a lot of time to be outside though. I have bluebirds and tree swallows and other bug eaters here, so with any luck........ I'm up in the northeast quadrant of the state.

    I have loved the sunshine. It had been so long since we had seen any here. I am hearing that we will probably start 90's by the weekend. That is 50 degrees different from last week!

  • loris
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam,

    I'm attaching a link to a thread in the "Trees" forum where somebody discusses his successful experiences planting under Norway maples. I found this thread funny and interesting. If you don't want to go through all 88 posts that are there now, look for the post with the phrase "2 Norway maples" in it.

    Your mentioning Cornus racemosa as invasive got me curious, and while hunting I came across the site below which contained the following statement which sort of helped me feel a drop less confused (but not by much):

    "Although native, many of these species can dominate natural areas or restorations, particularly if there has been some disturbance or lack of management (such as prescribed burning)."

    It's followed by a table which includes which habitats they can cause a problem in. I suspect some of the same species are an issue in places other than Wisconsin.

    http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/er/invasive/native.htm
    Wiscconsin Department of Natural Resources/Invasive natives

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks..

    I guess that link about the gray dogwood was not very reassuring loris..lol. Sounding like I may have some future difficulty with it either with all the suckers or seedlings. Just the same, I am going to give it a try and see if I like it.

    Thanks for the link about the maples. That was reassuring. I am thinking if I give everything enough water and spray with fertilizer, I might do ok.

    Yes, looking forward to a season with all these new to me shrubs and plants. Still don't have them all in, and what is in isn't looking too well at this point, but I am sure with some time, they will all look a whole lot better.

    Thanks,
    Adam

  • vegangirl
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adam,
    I don't know if you are still on ths forum but I was just wondering about your progress. How about an update? :)
    VG

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello.... :-)

    I was searching for something and came across this old thread. I thought it would be nice to update a little. I recently created a spreadsheet to do an inventory of all the plants in the garden and I just counted out that I have 54 different native plants now. Not individual plants, because I have more than that, but 54 different kinds.

    Here is a review of what I have and how I feel about it, five years later....

    Amelanchier has not done well for me, I don't understand why. I moved it twice but it does not perform. The winter moths do a good deal of damage every year to two shrubs, but even the tree I planted, seems to be diseased. Odd.

    Asclepias incarnata....I had to remove it. It was reseeding and coming up away from the original location. I also found that I just don't have a large enough area to do a good job of a sunny border. My garden is mostly part shade and shade.

    I love my native ferns and asters.

    Native azaleas have yet to perform, but have not been in the ground very long.

    I have one Baptisia australis and I love it. Very easy, very dependable and very attractive when in bloom.

    Lobelias have been performing well and although I am hoping they will attract hummingbirds, haven't seen one yet.

    Callirhoe from seed three years ago, this year looks like it will really be great. It's only the end of March and it is full of pretty new leaves.

    Clethra 'Hummingbird' ...a cultivar, but I really enjoy this every year. Fragrant, with very pretty leaves that always look great.

    That brings me to the Cornus racemosa. Oh boy. That was a mistake. I was inspired by Elaine's description of hers and I had no idea it was going to sucker and spread like this. It also has not bloomed or fruited in the four years it's been growing. It did amaze me how quickly it grew. It is already 8ft tall. It is large already from a small start. But I'm not sure it is going to work out. I really wonder how far away from the trunk this shrub will sucker. Every year it has traveled. I pulled them up the first year, but that barely slowed it down and I can't keep up with pulling them all every year. I like the shrub and if I had more room, it would sucker into a nice hedgerow. If I had more sun, maybe it would flower and fruit? I have a Viburnum carlesii right next to it that blooms, so I don't understand it. Unless you need a pollinator?

    LOVE my Hydrangea quercifolia ! I had to move mine a couple of times to find the right location but they are enjoyable at every time of year. Hydrangea arborescens are only two years old, but I am already liking those too.

    I've been disappointed that some of the spring natives have not increased very much, Mertensia, Tiarella, Uvularia, Trillium, Phlox divaricata and Iris cristata. One of these days they will I suppose.

    Last fall, I added Maidenhair Fern, Blueberry Bushes, Arctostaphylos, Gaylussacia, and Leucothoe. So it will be awhile before I know how those do.

    I tried Lilium candense and they didn't come back the second spring, which surprised me.

    Lindera benzoin has underwhelmed me and so far I have not seen any butterflies using it.

    I tried a native Lonicera and it did not bloom and died out. A hybrid, called 'Orange Mandarin' did just fine and is still there.

    I started Viola labradorica from seed and that has seeded itself around a little more than I would like, so I am keeping my eye on it.

    So...that is the basic review of the progress I've made so far. I have made many trips to New England Garden in the Woods and I'm always on the look out for native plants.

    :-)

  • nikonhead
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You can make a mixture that will please everyone including yourself. Just do it and experiment a little. That is part of the fun and the joy you get out of gardening. I plant a lot of native Texas plants but I will also add some annual colors in containers or laced in the fron of some beds. When you get a mature garden or flower bed that comes back every year with just a little work and the birds enjoy it I think you will be happy. You can also add a water feature or a small natural style pond with grasses and such that is very nice looking. One thing is aobut the spring growing season is that you will not have instant color like you will with annuals. There are many plants you can shoose from and get the look as well as the wildlife benefit. Once you find what thrives in your area and more specificly your lot you can have a very beautiful landscape. You are only held back by your imagination and as always the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

  • loris
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    vegangirl -- Great idea to ask for an update.

    nikonhead -- Im glad youre enjoying your garden.

    Adam,

    I enjoyed reading your update.

    I dont think Lindera benzoin (spicebush) is supposed to be a nectar source for adult butterflies, but if you see some beautiful Spicebush Butterflies around, it may be because this plant was able to feed the caterpillars-- which are pretty neat looking on their own. (Ive never seen any on my plant though I do see the adults sometimes so I dont know how much or little its helping). If you page down a bit you after using the link I included you can see some.

    Ive never seen a hummingbird at my Lobelia siphilitica (Blue Cardinal flower) either. If you dont have Lobelia cardinalis (Cardinal flower) yet and have a spot for it, you might want to give it a try. I think the color of its flowers are about beautiful as can be and the hummingbirds really like it. Cardinal flower is definitely one of my favorite plants.

    I remember this thread even though its pretty old since I found it so much fun, and so informative. Im glad to hear things are going pretty well over there.

    -- Lori

  • AdamM321
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Lori! I didn't expect to see anyone from the original thread, what a nice surprise. Thanks for the input on the Lindera. I will have to look for caterpillars instead of butterflies. Thanks for that link, I have seen those Spicebush butterflies, only a few but I do recognize them. Maybe they have discovered the Lindera. Interesting

    I moved my Lobelia siphilitica and it didn't survive. I do have the cardinalis and added more last year. I think I might have a good stand of them this year.

    I can't believe it has been five years since this thread started. It's amazing how your garden evolves and every year brings something new to enjoy. I always feel a little disappointed when I do a search on GW on a subject I am interested in and there is some update of how things worked out missing. So at least I hope this finishes up this conversation.

    Thanks for the great conversation and input!

    Adam

  • naturesurrounds
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My American plum tree (Prunus americana) and my several different serviceberries (Amelanchier species) are about to bloom now, and if there's anything prettier than these plants in bloom, I have yet to see it. And both feed many species of birds, the plum in July and the serviceberries in June.

    The Brooklyn Botanic Garden publishes a list of native substitutes for ornamental plants--check the garden's website.

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