Thanks for bringing this up. It is pretty scary isn't it? Brave New World, happening right here. Basically, people don't get it. Creating the American perception of beauty is huge business. It has had much money thrown into it by the media. Think about why we think that static green carpet is beautiful...because Chemlawn and TV shows as far back as Leave it to Beaver have showed us that. Think about the American perception of beautiful landscaping: everything has to be the same, no variation, no wildflowers and trimmed unnatural shrubbery. If you really disect that, it is pretty uninteresting and boring......not to mention the chemicals and water that go into keeping it that way. Also, the media's insistence on sensationalizing every tiny thing that happens gives us a skewed veiw of the dangers we face every day, so together, I think that people see chemicals as rather benign.

It is a tough thing to fight. In a similar vein, this is the same with the perception of the human form. Studies have been done showing that when southern Pacific cultures began showing American television, the incidence of anorexia and other eating disorders rose. I don't know what the answer is to this problem. We all have to adjust our concept of beauty and that is a tough thing when we all see so much of the same thing on television and in magazines. Kind of like when you were a kid and saw the same style over and over. After awhile, you just wanted to look like that.

So, discussions like this are good. They remind us that we are all in danger of having our minds manipulated by what we see and that we have to keep talking about it.

Interesting thread! That's sad to hear about the local cases where you live, Kittysmith. Vonyon has some great points.

Where I live, organic gardening and gardening for wildlife seem to be "subcultures" that are starting to get a little more "mainstream". There was a case about 5-6 yrs ago, right after I moved here, about someone who let their lawn go and people flipped out--suing him and so forth. I don't recall the particulars, but that's the last thing I remember. Where I used to live, in the southwest, there was a case where the neighborhood ass'n was trying to force a friend of mine to put his lawn back in--he ripped it out and went with a stunning xeriscaped yard. Why in hades anyone wants to have a KY31 lawn, especially in a land where you get 8 inches of rain a year on average, is beyond me. But--he wound up selling his house and moving out of that area due in large part to the pending lawsuits. Ridiculous.

On a more personal level: One of my neighbors owns a landscaping business. We have very different philosophies about landscaping/gardening--he's offered several times to spray my yard with pesticides at a reduced rate, and seemed insulted after my third polite "No thank you". He's pointed out multiple times that my front lawn could really use some fertilizer/herbicide...heck, I don't even want to water it! I'd like to get rid of it and put in native warm season grasses but DH isn't in agreement (yet!). I've got lovely foundation plantings started last year that are slowly providing more cover for the birds and mammals. I like the fact that my yard looks distinct from the others.

Anyhow, that's just ranting I suppose. I do hope it goes well for those cases in Houston.

I'm not sure what the laws or legal climate are like here but I do know that 'eclectic' and wildlife gardening are quite popular here in Olympia. There are however many subdivisions going in which I'm sure will be governed by homeowner's associations that will frown on that kind of thing. I just recently moved into town from the rural areas and I love walking around my neighborhood and looking at all the different gardens, some proudly displaying signs attesting to their certification by some wildlife or organic gardening association or another. Not everyone has a lawn and most lawns in town tend to be small, a lot of people have just mowed weeds/moss/grass blend or even no mowed area at all, either untrimmed meadow (rare in town) or mixed borders and beds and even full blown vegetable gardens in front yards no less. Native plants and natural areas are popular too. And the city allows up to 3 hens to be kept! As does Seattle. now that's civilized.

The stormwater ponds required by our long rainy season provide habitat for tree frogs and wintering ducks. Every parking lot and subdivision has at least one stormwater pond and most people love the frogs they attract. The city and county put out lots of info on less-toxic landscaping to keep the water clean for frogs and salmon and some people actually take it seriously, tho not everyone of course.

Possums, coons, deer and even the ocassional coyote wander all over town and bald eagles nest on the edge of downtown Olympia. One inlet of Puget Sound on the east side of town used to be a very productive oyster bed but has been degraded by runoff from housing and farming but a resident's association has been formed to convince people to keep the water clean and create a community shellfish bed where residents can gather clams and oysters - if they ever get the water clean enough.

Durtgirl and Kitty!! Thanks for posting all this. It is very encouraging to read about people that are of like mind.

Perhaps you all can appreciate this story.....I used to be on my town soccer club's executive board. I could not for the life of me convince the rest of the board to just allow the generic grass (read 'witch' grass) to grow for the soccer fields. And heaven forbid we might try to enrich the soil with composted manure!! You can imagine the looks of horror when I suggested that! I tried to convince them that the sandy soil that exists at that field would not hold water for a minute, but the landscaper that installed several golf courses in the area just said that "Sand makes great soil for grass. You just water the h*ll out of it." All of this made sense to them despite water bans every summer due to excess demand on the town's water (and we don't live in the desert). You know, the last time I looked, the whole neighborhood was playing soccer on my lawn, and I don't believe I heard one of the kids comment on the type of grass I had. The kids didn't even seem to notice the kind of grass that they were digging their cleats into when they are kicking a ball except that there was no big mudhole in front of the net like there is at the town field. You would think the delicate nature of specialized grasses and the shear cost of taking care of such a field in our money-driven society would be enough to put people off to the idea. What ever happened to the idea of survival of the fittest? Oh well...needless to say they thought I was a lunatic!

I am proud to say that I can sit out in my yard and look across a variety of green matter that serves as my lawn. I never water it. Why would I? The idea that that lawn takes it on the chin when a bunch of kids and dogs run over it constantly and when the weather dries up works for me. The fact that it stays happy despite the lack of that toxic-smelling Weed n' Feed just makes my day. The only bad part is the time it takes to mow every weekend (which I'm working on by putting in huge native shrub borders).

The worst part is that despite our resistance to using chemicals, it is still going down into our drinking and bathing water. Oh well, knowing you and the others makes me have hope that some day other people will see the wisdom in all this. Baby steps I say.

How I envy your progressive communities. Texas used to be a place where individuality was treasured, people understood wise use of land and the value of nature, but those days are long gone in Houston. We have had less than .008" of rain during June, yet you see sprinklers going during the afternoon (with temps near 100F, no less!) and water evaporating like crazy! No water conservation. Developers (and their ilk) run this city and we have very few parks compared to most American cities, but beaucoup golf courses. Hmmm.
I'm hoping that with some patience and education by those of us whose yards are evolving into habitats, more people will come around. Baby steps are in order, fer shur. I'm going to let my front yard kind of sneak up on them and let it grow even more wild in the back. Heat, finances and sloth all dictate that this project evolve slowly anyway!

We've been discussing the Houston teacher's plight on the Butterfly Forum. Some people just can't understand that what she's doing is good for the environment and wildlife! Sheesh. Here's a link to the article.

Here is a link that might be useful: Environment Under Attack

I have to tell you that at the moment, I have Winterthur viburnums blooming and elderberries. I don't see what is so ugly about those two things. What is it that people don't like? Is it that it doesn't look like everyone else's burning bush and clipped hedge?

I know, I know! It's because people like to have a "perfect" yards with no weeds, everything trimed and pesticides sprayed over everything. I kinda consider lawn grass more of a weed than anything. Takes up to much space, provides no benifit to wildlife and uses to much water. This fall I'm getting rid of the front lawn and planting native grasses and wildflowers instead. Hey at least it will be green 3/4 of the year instead of just spring.

Reg:
Those gardens are proof that the PNW is once again far ahead of the rest of the country.

(As I'm writing this there's a mama skunk with three babies on my deck. Last night, at the height of the [illegal] fireworks barrage, several raccoons and skunks lounged in my garden, feeling perfectly safe.)

There has been no environmental leadship on a national level for almost as long as I can remember. In fact concern for the environment is now considered a lunatic fringe attitude. Folks actually get a bit angry with me when I insist on using a real plate rather then a paper plate in the kitchen at the office. We are taught to believe that the choices we make don't matter. Maybe because most of our choices are small choices and the world is a big place, and there's nothing you can do about it. Sometimes I think that once we were all tagged by the name CONSUMERS back in the 60s it was all over. No matter the waste and the inattention to detail, just keep your mouth open and we'll keep stuffen it in. The ideal is to live fat and happy, never a bit of work, to be sealed up with a TV and a straw.

All that being said, I also feel lucky with my neighbors and my home. On my road I need my neighbors, we by and large care for each other, and come in handy now and then. Sometimes it really hits home, like last March. I was out in the veggie garden clearing away the chickweed. Along comes my neighbor. She's just cleaned her stables and has a truck load of mixed manure and saw dust. Over the next couple of hours I cleared my garden and she provided the mulch. Nothing went to waste, and the cycle turned again. This summer her horses will get the corn stalks and my sandy soil is that much richer. We share our lives together in our informal way, we just know that if we need something we can at least ask. What a dreadful thought that neighbors would turn against each other, and that a neighborhood would become impersonal that such a thing could happen. How sad that it is now so common.

Actually under the Clinton administration, the environment was a priority. He closed many national forests to continued lumbering and banned new roads. He pushed for and got a seven-year phase out of snowmobiles in Yellowstone. He supported the Kyota Agreement. He pushed for tougher clean air standards for power plants in the midwest. He supported the ban on drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

I was very optimistic during the 90s that the environment was being considered and protected in ways that hadn't happened in years.

Unfortunately when George Bush ran for president he went on record saying that he would eliminate all of the above. And people voted for him anyway. I just don't understand it.

that was because clinton had good pr.

what isn't told of bush is he's pushing for biodiesel. has increased funding to alternative sources of energy. I know that because when hubby worked for fce in ct they recieved a million more a year from bush then they had from any other.

Yeah he dropped the clean air standards but apparently they had been dropped to the lowet possible levels that they equipment could detect. Which would cost people jobs in the long run. why would companies pay health insurance when their too busy trying to pay fines etc.

anyway back to the original topic at hand. on the butterfly forum are pictures a person took of her front yard. ummm... i think the problem here is the look is too natural. If she did it that way on purpose i'm jealous. however, in a small yard in front of a small house it looks overgrown. Probably because the woman has a great green thumb. sigh............. i can see both sides on this one. And unfortunately the media probably decided to interview the most ahhh excitable neighbors. I hope she gets this case overturned but the neighbors do have a point.

Not that i'm any better. i hate to weed, never know what good plants pop up. But my design skills need work. Oh well in ms second try. And someone here had some good ideas. front yard has a huge river birch. looks very graceful. Maybe i can put spanish moss in it, apparently from all sounds of it, the birds love that stuff. ANd i have to find a way to encorporate more bird bushes since i have lots and lots of birds here. But first i have to actually figure out what most of the plants are. And what to mulch with. were in termite country here so i think wood is out. Not sure how i feel about rocks though.

anyway enough rambling.

Theirs two sides to the story. Were only getting half of it.

Moonwolf: Bravo for encouraging people to look at both sides of an issue. You do raise an important point. I wondered when you would weigh in on this one! :o) I had a feeling, I knew where you would stand on it and I was right.

The problem still remains that market values are tied to what the "perception" of beauty is in our culture. Unfortunately to fight that we have to go back and challenge those beliefs. Those beliefs are deeply engrained in our culture which is largely enforced by the media. People are fine with challenging beliefs when they are ready, but most people won't do that willingly. Most of us on this forum have arrived where we are through an evolution of thought that involved being willing to read and debate and learn. Once people become adults, they fight changing their opinions. Many people are just warm and cozy in their preformed ideas.

I know it's sometimes difficult to avoid letting politics creep into the discussions on here, but please...let's talk about bush, not Bush. I'd rather discuss the effects of cats on wildlife than bring his policies into this.

I read once that our desire for endless, perfectly green lawns might have originated with the town green so common in colonial times. I would guess that most average-to-lower-class citizens in Europe did not have the luxury of lawns or "greens" like those that surrounded the bourgeois manors, and maybe the lush, well-groomed lawn became a symbol of affluence and wealth. My theory might be totally flawed, but the notion of lawn-as-status symbol certainly fits neatly into this society of ours which seems hell-bent on emphasising the need to have more, get more, flaunt more. Just thought of the next (ugh) reality show: Pimp My Lawn. Don't laugh-that's no more absurd than some of the lengths people already go to to acheive the "perfect yard."

And making the change from grass to natives isn't always a quick and painless transformation. It's like going from a short, very structured hair style to long, free-flowing locks. If done properly, the end result is a thing of beauty but there is always the in-between, growing out stage to suffer through.

What is that company that sponsors so much on PBS...the Scotts Corporation? I think that's it...can see the commercial in my head and it makes me want to puke--the shiny happy children playing in a sprinkle of crystalline water, jumping in slow-mo unison with a perfectly manicured, emerald green
lawn behind them, while a baby bends to smell a delicate flower. How sweet an image, and how desirable that yard! Nevermind the fact that this is also the maker of Ortho, RoundUp, Scotts fertilizer/chemical products, and a few others I can't recall. "Making grass greener,...trees taller...", the charismatic announcer intones, and isn't your family worth it? What about those other "makings", the "...toxic water and the environment lethal to various animals" ones?
Wonder why those attributes never get air time.
What a paradox: destroying the environment in an attempt to "improve" it.

DG: Well said!!

I know you didn't mean it to be funny, but I was laughing at your description of the commercial. I do recall it now and vividly . The thing is when you analyze that very commercial, you will see how people's minds are being somewhat toyed with. I think you may be right about the greens. I did think it may have had something to do with the way grass seems to grow over in the British Isles and that we are always longing for that somehow.

ACtually our want for a green lawn may have more to do with the whole plains of africa thing. In a manicured green lawn you can see predators easier.

The colonists didn't need weedwackers or lawnmowers, they had cows and goats to keep the grass trim for them. And it would have been imp in that time period to go out and scythe the grass to make hay, to keep the animals fed during the winter. Plus nice trim grass would let you know when a indian raid was a coming, hostile neighbors, or dangerous animals. It would have kept down the chance of fire coming to the house, from a brush fire gone astray. Or as likely embers from a chimney.(apparently thats what is surmised to have caused the big chicago fire, ember landing on a barn that then went from roof to roof).

And as for "perception" of beauty. Umm...... Just because you've read a lot and put a lot of thought into it doesn't make your perception of beauty any more imp than any others.

The whole curb appeal has a lot of sence behind it. If your yard is overgrown, then more than likely you haven't taken care of your house. Hidden dangers and all that. Which is going to make people not want to buy the house. ANd if someone is looking to buy someones house near that house, it will drive down your selling price and be a big influence on whether or not they will buy. Thoughts of drunkurds, and noisy music, and other not so pleaseant thoughts will go through their mind. I know it would go through mine.

Weird artwork, is ok, because its weird artwork. Eccentric gardening with various flowers is ok because it at least looks somewhat planned. But even planned overgrowth isn't ok looking because it looks to natural, too chaotic and well overgrown. Thus not taken care of. And if they let her get away with it soon enough other residents will decide they won't have to either and then the neighborhood goes downhill and people loose money.

And heck for all you or i know their probably is fire code safety things going on. I don't know enough about that to say yay or nay.

theirs at least a few sides to whats going on. And i really really though hard about how i was going to say what i was going to say or even if i would say anything. I've found if i tried to figure out where the other person was coming from it made communicating with them easier. And generally i get what i want and its easier for them to understand why or what is imp to me. On the other hand trying to impress people with how well read i was and why i was more right than they were made them clam up and ignore me. And that more than anything else is whats making people not listen to the enviromental factor. They sound too snooty and holier than thou.(to put it bluntly) with probably many spelling and grammar mistakes. As i'm writing this while stirring dinner in between.

Absolutely right Moonwolf. I didn't mean to imply that my perception of beauty is any more important than anyone else's at all. Just that people think their perception of beauty is the only one. I'm trying to say that there are more ways than one to look at this.......and as you say, trying to see where I'm coming from or the woman in Texas is coming from is what people need to do instead of deciding for her what beauty is. I think it is really unfortunate that people have to give up what they enjoy because it isn't mainstream..................and, by the way, I'm not trying to impress anyone. If the way I write offends you, I'm sorry.

I wasn't offended. Just busy and not able to put what i was thinking into more tactful or more uhhhh poetic terms.

It was a offhand observation of how i usually in real life get my way:) its easier in person to person. Also a offhand perception of the enviromental movement and how its percieved and why its percieved the way it is. That and i'm becoming jades and cynical in my ripe old age of(30). And probably not enough choclate today. That and kids just went to bed and i wrote it at my edgy not enough time for myself period. It would have sounded better a few hours from now.

that and i'm argumentatvie and cantankerous anyway:) :P

Well, I'm not going through the same kind of hassles that the poor lady in Texas is, but I for one won't have to worry about my choice of landscaping habits driving my property value down. The only person who would come through here and see this property as valuable would have to be a nature-appreciative sort like myself and not someone who craves turfgrass and is terrified of weird sounds in the night.
You are absolutely correct, Moonwolf..."beauty" is a relative term. Just as one person would look at a piece of art in a gallery and have it evoke some particular emotion and yet another person would get something entirely different out of it, not everyone would appreciate or understand why I have various brush piles in my yard or an old tree trunk lying off to one side for the lizards to sun on.
The "beauty" I see in naturalized settings is simply the obvious richness in diversity and interaction there...kind of a "something for everybody" feeling. Manicured stretches of grass just seem so sterile. The moles are ok here making their hills and tunnels-our soil is post-oak and tightly grained so it needs that aeration anyway, and they are probably after some kind of grub and I'll take that method of control over malathion any day. If there are caterpillars eating the wild mallow at the corner of the yard then that's ok-they do eventually make butterflies and they probably won't kill the plant either. And the young cog-wheel bugs hiding in the branches will take care of a lot of them for me. Even the deep lacquered greens on a poison ivy branch have a certain attractiveness to me...from a respectable distance anyway.
But to someone else it may look like a big mess, or that a lazy gardener lives here.
Oh well....they are always welcome to stop in and have a closer look.

yes but dirtgirl you have acres. Its different perspective when in suburbia. People are gonna be less crotecty in rural areas(especially considering you have neighbors with winebagos attached to houses, see thread of have you ever gotten divorsed over trees:) ). YOu have acres between you and the other guy and if you find his landscaping displeasing you can always plant something big to hide it. Or at least have trees that will hide it.

plus illinois is different then texas. You have more concern in a city about brushfire. illinois gets more rain for one.

I dont' know the answer for one. But all i was pointing out their are logical reasons the neighbors are irritated. plus when you start paying a lot of money for a home in a area you like and then you see things you don't like, you start wanting to protect your investment.

The point about two sides to a story and hazards like brush fires are well taken.

A little more food for thought, not meant to offend anyone:

I uderstand the market value concern, but the argument falls flat for me. Maybe it is a pet peeve of mine, maybe it is my stubborn, independent spirit.......I'm not too sure. ;o) It just seems as though people have double standards.

The part I don't understand is this: just because someone makes an investment what gives them the right to dictate to all the neighbors how they can use their investment? Everyone makes an investment, pays their taxes and in my mind, should be able to enjoy their property the way they see fit. The point about dirtgirl having acres is a good one because it seems to me that the only way to control the way the other properties look is to buy them.

If it is a safety issue that is different. I agree there. Of course, this raises another interesting double standard: you can't stop your neighbor from poisoning your water, pets, baby birds and kids with his Chemlawn. That is the other side to that story in my mind. Its just another example of how many different ways there are to view things.

There has been a lot of research done into the evolution of the American lawn, and its genesis is in the Western European formal garden scheme. Of course, Western Europe has a whole different climate and flora than most of North America, which is why green swards worked there and are so difficult to maintain here.

The African savannah idea doesn't work, because savannah grasses are well over 3' high - no comparison there. Paleoanthropologists have pretty well discounted that whole "let's walk upright so we can see" theory anyway. The timing of when australopithecines et al. started walking erect and where they were living just don't mesh right. But that's a whole 'nother story.

I understand the need for building standards to make sure our housing is safe, but I don't understand the need for aesthetics police. Active hazards should be legislated against, but a maintained yard where the groundcovers are not grass is not a hazard to anything but people's preconceptions. Whatever happened to people getting together and working out their differences instead of immediately litigating?

OK, I know this is a serious thread, but I found the following website on another thread, and I thought that a little humor couldn't hurt.

Check out Garden Tips.

I hope that everyone realizes that this is supposed to be funny!

The only instance I can think of where I would side with the litigators is in a situation where there is a prepurchase agreement that lawn/landscaping follow certain guidelines. If you choose to move into a community that has rules about property upkeep then I think you are obligated to follow those bylaws.
And this is strictly in regards to the yard area, not issues with the general upkeep of the house itself.

There is a very large house which was built around the turn of the century in a town about 30 minutes from here. This property takes up most of a city block and it recently sold after sitting empty for several years. Well,during the last few years, every time I went by there I noticed flags and markers around certain trees and things getting shuffled around outside, and all the while I realized there was less and less lawn. At first it looked like complete chaos and that the new owners were just slobby, especially since the house itself never had work done on it that I could see. Then recently I took a closer look as I drove by and it dawned on me that they were in the process of naturalizing the place. There are now lots of shade loving plants and wildflowers and the old hedge with its artificially pruned shapes is gone and replaced with low native shrubs. It has the beginnings of a stratified forest-type setting, with layers of growth. And the funny thing is that every time I have had someone with me in the passenger seat, there is usually a comment about how the people have "let the property go to pot". Strange how trees and trumpet creeper and anything other than neat carpet from a sod farm is seen as undesirable and ugly. No, there's no sacks of garbage spilling over onto the sidewalk, no broken bottles in the grass or peeling paint on the walls, but it's still trashy?

When we bought our house twelve years ago, we looked for a neighborhood in which the natural landscaping outweighed the chem lawns. As it turned out, this was also a neighborhood with lower house prices, because it had served -- until quite recently -- as a bedroom enclave for the local cannery and boat works (now defunct).

But something funny happened after we moved in. Not only did I destroy the lawn the house came with and replaced it with perennials, shrubs, and trees, but so did other newcomers. (Several of which also remodeled their houses.)

In the last five years, this has become one of the hottest neighborhood in town. The value of the houses has doubled and tripled, and you cannot buy a house here unless you happen to be on good terms with a seller (the last four or five houses sold here were never listed on the real estate market, but were sold privately). It's driving realtors crazy. Several have actually stopped their SUVs when they caught me tending my jungle and offered me cash on the spot if I wanted to sell.

The wildlife is also happy -- and its numbers have increased, even though we are deep within city limits, with houses stretching for miles on three sides (the fourth side borders a greenbelt and the Bay), we have possums, raccoons, skunks, deer, a very elusive cougar, deer, and (in some yards) rabbits and squirrels. Plus some hundred + species of birds.

Our neighborhood offers proof that lawn-free landscaping can raise property prices and that men and wild animals can live in harmony.

Did I mention that our roads are narrow and bordered by shallow drainage ditches which provide cover for wildlife and that we don't have sidewalks?

John D - wow, is it in your water or something? Can you send some of these people to the eastern part of the country?

Speaking of the Texas lady - any idea how we can get in touch with her to give her our support - I am sure she would be pleased to see all these comments.

Check out Butterfly habitat under attack in Houston on the Butterfly Forum.

Her name is Kelly, and if you read the forum you will find a post from her along with the information to foward an email to her.

We are experiencing a severe drought, and some folks in the area are running sprinklers all day long watering their lawns! People can claim to protect their investment or their vision of beauty, but should'nt protecting or conserving scarce natural resources take precedence?

On a positive note, a few years after we took out a chunk of the front yard and converted it into a perennial garden, a few folks in the neighborhhod have started similar activities. There is hope yet!

I just looked at this forum for the first time tonight. It's nice to see a forum where everyone can have open, honest debate without resulting to childish labels and name calling. You all make well thought out, valid points on your issues.

On this particular subject, the natural yard does seem to be more acceptable as the acreage increases. I'm on a half acre. My neighbors have a large area where there used to be a pool. Now it's 8' high weeds. One might call it natural landscaping. I call it an ugly tick trap. As much as I appreciate nature, I don't like to look at this guy's yard. If I could afford to put a fence up, I'd do it in a second.

I fall into a middle area, and it's separated by my front and back yards. I view my front yard as my show place. I'm in the process of completely redoing the lawn. The backyard is for the birds and creatures. Where the tree line starts, I let the grass grow high to help give the ground feeding birds some cover. I definitely let the back go compared to the front. I actually like both looks, and get a good amount of satisfaction from both of my lawns. I've got no problem with the well manicured lawn providing it's done with organic means. I'm lucky that I don't live in a Chemlawn happy area. People don't pay much attention to their lawns here. I think I'm the only one on my block with actual grass.

My state, CT, has just signed into law a provision that no pesticides or chemicals are to be used in parks, school yard or public greens. While this state has a long way to go in terms of cleaning up both the air and ground, I'm very pleased that they took this step. I'm also pleasantly surprised that it was passed with a republican gov and democratic legislature. It's nice to see common sense prevail over politics.

Rudy: Agreed on all counts. I love debate as long as people remain respectful. There is always room for another point of view......doesn't mean I have to agree with it, but I love to open my mind to another way of looking at things. Having said that, as of late, most people seem to be staying respectful, but it is always a challenge to write your view and not offend.

The only problem I have with the lawn thing even if it is done organically is that it still takes up tons of water which is a valuable resource.

Ya know on the lawn thing...I could't believe my mom the other day. She turned on the sprinkler, one of those walkig ones. It was 1:45. Seems they have grubs on their "manicured" 3 acres. Yep, THREE acres! My dad had a lawn service put down something for grub control, and I can assure it isn't organic, and she was watering. We went out again today to dump some roots (we dug up 2 burning bushs and we had a truckload of roots!) in their revine, but my dad wouldn't let us. He's been watering all that grass.....They cleared timber to build the house....and then manicured the rest.....what a waste....

John_D, do you have any pics of those yards? I'd love to see what's going on out there. I'm redoing my lawn, but would love incorporate more natural areas into it. I just have no clue of where to start. To put perennials there would just put me back into the water thirsty plant boat I think.