16,949 Garden Web Discussions | Growing Tomatoes
Thanks Dave. I believe I'll take your advice and just let things grow. Until now, I have used the typical wire tomato cage and experienced a lot of vine breakage once things got above the top of the cages. That was what I feared would happen as well with the new supports and why I considered topping off the plants. Based on your response, I assume this is less likely to occur with the higher supports.
As my supports are about 12 feet long and 4 feet apart, would it be of any value to add some additional horizontal support to the system to assist holding up the vines once they begin to cascade downward? I'm thinking a trellis net hung between the two supports, or possibly bamboo poles laid perpendicular to the main supports. I have access to all the bamboo I can cut down.
would it be of any value to add some additional horizontal support to the system to assist holding up the vines
Sure. You can do it by just adding more strings horizontally. Look at pics of a Florida weave. It is easy to convert stringed plants to Florida weave supports. You can also tie the tops to the horizontal bar so they run parallel to the ground.
Keep in mind for next year that the more you prune the laterals off an indeterminate the taller the central core plant will get to compensate. So leaving more lateral branches (aka suckers) and stringing them generally results in shorter plants (not short but shorter :).
Dave
As for the aphids I was trying to attract them to the vinegar which kills them.
And that is the primary mis-understanding. You never want to attract them to anything for any reason. They may or may not come all on their own and if they don't why attract them. Plus plain water can kill them too without any risk to the plants.
So please get rid of these vinegar and soap containers from near your plants. They pose much more of a threat than even aphids do.
While flooding the area will dilute the soap and vinegar it will also flood the plant roots. Since they are only a week old I'd probably move them to an uncontaminated spot.
As for seeds it may have contacted, I'd plan on having to re-seed once the area has been flushed out well.
Dave
@ digdirt
Thank you very much!
Yeah, got rid of all the vinegar containers, and I didnt actually know "just water" would kill them. Now I know thanks to you!
I flushed the area well with water and its all leaking out, which is what we want!
Going to home depot and will buy more soil and repot the big plants just to be on the safe side. Dont want all my hard work going to waste.
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and help.
Will let you know how I get on.
If you have more plants and would like help from the very experienced people here to protect the remaining plants from a similar fate, I would suggest posting pictures of your plants and supports. If there is a situation that would increase the risk of breakage in the remaining plants, they might be able to see it and offer advise.
I agree that this was not caused by the short cages. Every year I have plants that outgrow my 5 foot cages. Rarely ever do the plants snap off limbs. Rather they just bend over and even crimp where it rests on the top rung of the cage. But they rarely snap off.
I think the OP needs to tell us more details... varieties, fertilizer regimes, irrigation, and amount of sunlight. As of now, my vote is something to do with fertilizer and / or the amount of sunlight.
If the long sides of the beds are east/west rather than north/south I would plant the SM along each east side, where they will not block the majority of the sun from the smaller Romas planted along the west side. Of course that's assuming you don't have a building or something to the west that blocks afternoon sun.
Dave grows in a much hotter climate than I do, so if he says you need to shade the Romas then ignore what I said about sun.
But I do think you're better off building 2 trellises and spreading the SM across the 2 beds rather than trying to squeeze them into the 16ft bed. Then plant the Romas in front (meaning sunny side, or whatever Dave recommends) of them.
If you plant the SM 3-4ft apart along 12-16ft beds then you might not have to prune them - or as much. If you put all 8 along a 16 ft trellis you will need to prune them.
Does the SM tag say they're determinate?
Hi ajsmama,
Thanks for the advice. The long side of the boxes face east and west with the 4 foot wide part facing north south. There are trees to the west but they don't block the sun until about 6 pm so the tomatoes will get full sun for about 9 hours. I like the idea of spreading out the SM over the 2 beds so I won't have to prune or at least keeping it to a minimum. I just went out and looked at the tags on the SM and the Romas and the SM tag says indeterminate and the Roma tag says determinant. I'm glad you asked because I missed it. I read on a food site recommending a variety of paste tomatoes for making sauce with and they said paste tomatoes are determinant which made harvesting and processing tomato sauce easier because the tomatoes would all be ready at about the same time. Oh well, that's ok, good lesson to learn. :) Next year I'll know what I'm doing! LOL!!
Chris
Some years ago, in a town not far from Carolyn, I grew my best tomato crop ever when given permission to plant on a section of pasture land. I mowed the grass low, planted the tomatoes 4' apart, laid black plastic secured with stones and bricks around each plant...and allowed the weed growth between each row and around the plot to mature and blossom. The tomato vines just sprawled on the black plastic, free to wander. It looked messy! But, no blights, no damaged plants and an extra heavy yield. Lots of beneficial insects.
About the first week in September DH proudly told me he had cleaned up the ugly tomato patch, weed eating everything around the black plastic. Two days later the plants began to yellow and disease problems appeared. Further years of experimenting leads me to encourage the OP to surround the plants with black plastic, let the plants sprawl and allow the pasture weeds to grow up around the planting to protect the tomatoes.
You ask what the norm is for blossom drop?
I haven't the faintest idea since I don't count all new buds just opening up and then go out and recount to see how many have dropped.
What I do know is that given the many variables associated with blossom drop it always happens and can't be predicted. So honestly, I don't know how anyone could give you an answer to what the normal percentage of drop might be. ( smile)
Carolyn
Yeah it is called "Tomato Leaf Roll" (lots of info available on the causes). Stress on the plant of some kind triggers it and it is usually related to very inconsistent soil moisture levels. No long term threat to the plant.
Dave
Yeah they are called 'volunteers' and there are many discussions here about them the search will pull up as most all of us get some of them every year.
Years of experience with them has proven to me that 80% of the time they aren't worth the space and should be pulled and fresh, known variety plants planted in the space instead. If they were either hybrids or cross-pollinated plants then as Linda said, they won't breed true or in some cases, even develop fruit.
But others prefer to give at least a few of them a try if they have the room just to see what happens/develops and what it tastes like. But they shouldn't be considered you only source of tomatoes, just a side line experiment.
I certainly can't recommend selling them or even giving them away since you can't have any idea if they will even produce fruit, much less fruit that is edible.
So if you know the name of the varieties you planted last year and can find out if they were hybrid varieties or open-pollinated varieties, you'll have the answer to keeping them or not.
Dave
So if you know the name of the varieties you planted last year and can find out if they were hybrid varieties or open-pollinated varieties, you'll have the answer to keeping them or not.
********
And even if you do know the names of the ones you planted last year, and some were hybrids, you can't tell the difference between a volunteer that was OP (open pollinated), or a plant that resulted from the F2 seeds of a hybrid that overwintered.
In the Spring just for the heck of it I used to take about 10 volunteers from my main tomato field and move them to a side garden, just to see if I could ID them.
Sometimes I could, and sometimes I could not, and the other variable here is that some of the OP's could cross pollinate thus the volunteers from those cross pollinated seeds could not be Ided.
Anything you want to do with them is your choice, but as Dave said, I certainly wouldnt give then to others, and if you are curious about them, do what I did, just for fun. (smile)
Carolyn
Newspaper ink is no longer a problem because it is derived from vegetables. Dioxins used in the production of paper are so miniscule as to not be a problem either. At least that was what I was told when I worked in the Pulp and Paper industry 20 years ago! I often use newspaper as mulch on my gardens, as well as for making paper pots for my seedlings and do not consider it an issue, although I tend to avoid the shiny stuff that advertisements are sometimes printed on.
Linda
GoogleImages has hundreds of pics of various types of shade frames for hardening off plants or for the gardens. They can be as big or as small as you need them to be.
The Garden Structures forum here also has lots of ideas and suggestions. Just requires a bit of imagination.
Dave
Here is a link that might be useful: Gardening shade frames
I have wire hoops and row cover (not shade cloth but could buy some), I was just interested in seeing the "nicer looking" ones sleevendog made.
I have to measure but I was thinking of using some of the old windows left over after we build the end walls in the tunnel to cover the beds to start seed there next spring, if they're the right size. Beds are only 2ft wide so I'm sure most of them are at least that wide.
My patience was being tested and everything went in last Sat.
Even the toms i put in a bit early...three weeks ago look great...(took a chance)
All seeds in, salads, pole beans, etc.
Turned it all over to mom nature...
It has been so soggy and damp all week and now more rain...the two rejected trays of starts meant for the compost are doing great...so i still have some babies to tend. (eye roll)
I would go ahead and get some in to break up the task since time is limited...especially the peppers. And give them some shade.
Starting tomorrow we have a few nice days and soil is nice and wet now.
The peppers are all going in the tunnel since I know time is running out, hope to extend the season. But boy, pouring again now, I hope the tomatoes I already planted are doing OK, if we don't get a whole lot more rain this week/month they might but I'm having flashbacks to last June...
Thanks Carolyn, I did read your comments on that subject but also there have been many times that Dave has commented on someone having too small a transplant (maybe they were more like seedlings, just 1 pair of leaves) in too large a container so I thought I'd ask.
Planting in containers is just so much different than growing in ground that I thought I'd ask. But these are a size that I would put directly in the ground right now. Haven't checked if Sophie's Choice was rootbound, but Gem State had a pretty solid mass of fibrous roots ;-)
Just wondering - I know bigger is better, but Sand Hill says Kootenai can do well in 1-3 gal pot. What about Sophie's Choice? I don't think I'd go smaller than 2 gal, I have a lot of that size, I also have 2 "12 inch patio planters" that look to be about 3 gal, some large diameter but shallow tree pots, and a few 5 gal buckets with cracks that I was going to drill out. Bu I also have Sandpoint and Gem State I wanted to try, so wondering which plants to put in which containers.
I'm tempted to try Sophie in ground but read she doesn't like heat so maybe all 4 have to go in pots - I have plenty of the Dr. Boe tomatoes to experiment with so some of those will likely go in south end of center row in high tunnel, or even in the side beds - Sophie would be perfect there since she doesn't get too tall, maybe Kootenai is the same. Gem State seems taller, Sandpoint not quite as tall but taller than K and SC.
I have a 4' wide raised bed with 16' metal cattle panels held up on T-posts (one T-post every 8'). The bottoms of the panels are about 14-16" off the ground, IIRC. That puts the top of the panels close to 6', and as I am a short person, that's about as high as I can reach. [Some people cut the panels in half and use them vertically, which would be 8' tall but only about 9' wide.] I have access to both sides, and can plant occasional herbs on either side of the row. The holes in the panels are roughly 6 x 7", IIRC.
I weave the young stems in and out of the openings, and as needed use the round vine clips, both as training and to hold vines that need support. [I prefer the red vine clips, but some of the white ones are okay; the green ones I've used don't stay closed, so I don't recommend those. I never remember where I've bought the good ones, so do a Google Images search.]
I trim very few suckers. Plants are 4' apart. You could trim half the suckers and plant at 2 1/2 or 3' apart. But remember that too dense and you're more likely to have fungal problems (possibly contributing to why I had Late Blight in 2009, but not related to last summer's LB).
Stock panels are something you find in an agricultural or semi-rural area. There are various types (cattle, hog, etc.) and sizes, usually 16' long and various heights (usually some inches more than 4'). What matters most is the size of the holes: you don't want tomatoes to be trapped, and you want to be able to reach through the holes and pull large tomatoes through, particularly if you can't walk on both sides of the trellis.
The panels will last forever.
An alternative is concrete reinforcement wire (CRW). It is less expensive (per foot, but you have to buy a lot of it) and it rusts. However, from what I've read here, it will probably last you a couple of decades if you don't leave it lying on the ground. I believe it is 5 or 6' wide. [This is what is generally used for homemade tomato cages.]
Another alternative is the Hortonova netting from Johnny Seeds:
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/c-225-trellis-clips-twine.aspx
[Note the white vine clips on the same page -- and there are brown compostable clips on the second page: never saw those before.]
I set up some of the Hortonova last year, but my tomatoes got LB before they did any climbing. T-posts every however-often, with the yellow plastic clips (for electric fencing) snapped on at the top of each T-post, then the netting hanging from the clips, and finally a strong cord through the top of the netting and attached to each clip, to help support the weight. It would probably be a good idea to weave cord through the net up a few of the T-posts, so the wind wouldn't try to uproot the vines. Guy wires at the ends of the row, if needed.
You might also be able to find white knitted nylon netting in 50 or 60' lengths (maybe 6' wide) in some of the major veggie seed catalogs. It's good stuff and lasts multiple seasons. I don't know if this would support tomatoes, as I've only used it for a late planting of small gourds, very tall peas, and cukes.
Try searches on this forum (and maybe the veggie forum) for "trellis," or "support," or "Hortonova."
Another possibility is the standard Florida-weave, which you can find in searches also. You'll need many strong posts set deep, as well as a whole heck of a lot of cord that doesn't sag.
Sorry for the wait but I still don't have all the answers. Burpee sent me a new brandywine, it arrived on Thursday and it was planted a few hours ago.
I called Burpee on Wednesday and asked if the horticulturist could tell what it was that I sent a picture of. They said I would get an email but I have yet to receive one.
When I dug up the defective plant the root system looked very strange to me. I took a pic just to show what I found.
The root is gnarly, but the stems don't look like tomato either. Maybe a turnip or daikon type radish (I think I see a larger root behind the tangle)?