16,949 Garden Web Discussions | Growing Tomatoes

Carolyn, that book is my favorite too. The pictures never fail to captivate.

OnT - I would go deep, but here dry heat is the threat.

(Per our favorite book, a mature plant will have roots all over the place. In warm soil probably not a big deal either way.)

This post was edited by johns.coastal.patio on Mon, May 26, 14 at 14:37

Yeah I get what you are trying to imply about the adventitious roots that develop when the plants are trenched in - that they are supposedly resistant to work or exertion; disposed to idleness. 2. Slow-moving; sluggish, etc.

But since none of that is true anyway then I suppose it doesn't matter if you don't explain why you are making that claim.

Dave

The original poster said Big Beef which is an indeterminate hybrid.

I too would get it planted ASAP. If you are going to grow it in a pot, which I don't know, then most indeterminates need at least a 10 gal pot and then very sturdy support, not that smaller ringed one that you show in the picture.

Hope that helps,

Carolyn

For that pot size I have 3 of them. One is Bush Goliath, Two are Husky Cherry Red. I saw a few on the shelf at HD that were Heat Master plants. I did those in ground last year. While they did survive the heat. The fruit set did not happen until fall.

Note I had a terrible time last year. I am not placing blame on any of the plants I planted last year. It was just too late when I did get plants in the ground that the weather did not destroy. (2 late rain storms that turned to ice, and froze the ground killing everything. Then 4 hail storms in 6 weeks that destroyed what I replanted.)

For the pot you could plant a bush type that would do just fine in it. The Husky Cherry Red does fine in one. I have taken over a pound of cherry tomatoes off of the one I have, and it is still putting more off. Bush Goliath gives nice sized fruit for such a small plant. Most are near to baseball sized. Some a bit larger. Also Patio will do well in the 3 gal container as well.

So this was not really a question about using the same container second year.

Fireduck, I never say "don't ever" to anyone, but you say "don't ever" for things that work very well for me. Just so you know.

Top growth looks good. I snip off lower leaves that are touching the ground. Mulch with a light airy straw. They should recover if you get those leaves off the wet ground...
not sure where in the zone you are but on the east coast we have been soaked for days.
like mentioned above, they need to get used to where they are if not properly hardened off...just an adjustment time is needed and another week of patience.
I've never ordered tom starts but must be such different growing conditions than where you are...

Thanks for the help! I trimmed off the damaged leaves, so they're looking leggy but better. Guess I need to harden off differently if I buy from this source again.

Cheers!

It is true that genetic of a variety determines fruit size, but there can be a lot of inconsistency in size due to the number of fruits growing all at the same time with a crowded foliage. So then reducing the burden on the plant may result in bigger fruits. People who grow tomatoes for championship do it all the time.
But To me even small fruit is fruit too. After all you cut them up when you use them.

There are folks who grow varieties for competition and they have their tricks, like using only fused blossoms, aka megablooms, and thinning out fruits, and more, and then there are most home growers who don't grow for competion who say thay want larger fruits.

In which case I agree with Dave,that if you want bigger fruits choose a variety that has bigger fruits.

Suckers. aka lateral branches, do not suck energy from the plant so that doesn't help to take them off for larger fruits,it just means less fruits on the plant since lateral branches are very productive as to setting fruits.

Let's say you have something like Rutgers, a medium sized red, and you want something larger, then think about Coustralee, Zogola, for red ones, maybe Omar's Lebanese or Large Pink Bulgarian for a pink one,justto give a couple of examples.

Carolyn

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I did the bacterial wilt test, and it doesn't seem to be that (can't see any white stuff coming out of three stems I tried). I did speak to a local horticulturist who really does believe it is some sort of wilt. She recommended heavy amendments for next year. This makes sense to improve the soil, but will it really do anything to kill the cause?

I also have a bigger issue, I think. I built a teepee trellis in this area and put it in to the ground. Due to the way I built it, there is no good way to get in to amend the soil, till it up, etc. I'm afraid that I'm going to have to take down the trellis this fall :-(

Live and learn........

I'm glad that it doesn't appear to be Bacterial Wilt,

But in talking with your local person did she or he suggest physiological Leaf Roll or did you mention it.

The word WILT is just a generic word and there can be many reasons/causes of why plants will wilt, but I don't see amending the soil to be one of them that will either prevent or cure WILT, IMO, for any reason.

Carolyn

Definitely more MG. The Tomato Tone won't help much in the short term. Water often, and use 1/4-1/2 strength MG with every watering. Your leaf color should respond fairly quickly and become a much darker green.

I agree with Edweather. The pale foliage color alone is a good indication of nutes deficiency. Excess watering may have been a contributing factor as well.
The browning effect shown in the last picture is probably a reminiscent of past when it was cooler and now it is just expiring. I would just pinch those and any yellow leaves. Th often can harbor diseases. Leave like that not only do not make any contribution but they are burden on the plant.

I doubt that those plant , in those containers (bigger than 5 Gallons), at this stage have become root bound
JMO.

If that were the case I should have stopped growing tomatoes all together.

Why do you assume it is an either/or situation? You keep insisting that for you the choice is either plant them out so early exposed to much colder than recommended weather or don't plant at all. That simply isn't true.

And then you go even further by repeatedly pontificating about it and recommending this approach to others when they ask. All because you are trying it with a few tomato plants in your location it is ok for them to do it too?

If it works for you fine - good luck. But why are you so insistent that others do it too?

Why do you insist on restating your claims about this over and over in so many threads? It is only marginally interesting, it applies only to you, and it is misleading to others. So why? Is it just to prove that all the research and all the experiences of so many others are wrong and only you truly understand how tomato plants tolerate cold weather? Now that would be arrogance.

Nothing in any research done or in any common practice says you cannot grow tomatoes when the outside ambient air temps are below 50 You simply (a) delay your planting when possible or (b) when it isn't you adjust the environment by providing cover so that the air around the plants is at least that warm.

There is a whole range of ways to accomplish it without any risk to the plants by simply growing them under some sort of cover. Lots of people do it. So could you. If you choose not to, that is your choice. But that choice in no way makes your methods correct or something to be advocated when it directly contradicts so much evidence.

You insisted on links. You got them. Many many more are available. So now you dispute their validity simply because they disagree with your claims. Then I and others can dispute your claims simply because there is so much scientific and anecdotal evidence against it.

The OP got their answer many emails/posts ago and so has anyone else who read this thread. There is no way you will be able to prove your claims about tomato cold tolerance are right and everyone else is wrong so it is way past time for you to let this issue go and move on.

Dave

This post was edited by digdirt on Sat, May 24, 14 at 18:49

I just made a direct quote from that article. And I disputed what it said.
"""
Overview
Eager gardeners often start vegetable gardens as soon as the threat of frost is gone. Planting vegetables, especially tomatoes, in cooler weather doesn't mean that you will be harvesting before your neighbors. Instead, you may be exposing your plants to disease and growth problems that could be minimized by waiting. Daytime temperatures below 70 degrees F or evening temperatures consistently below 50 degrees F can damage or destroy tomato plants.
"""""
And just pay attention to this statement:

""" F or evening temperatures consistently below 50 degrees F can damage or destroy tomato plants. """

Can damage and destroy tomato plan ???

The person who made such claim must be arrogant , talking without basis and proof, not me proving him dead wrong.

Dave wrote:

"The OP got their answer many emails/posts ago and so has anyone else who read this thread. There is no way you will be able to prove your claims about tomato cold tolerance are right and everyone else is wrong so it is way past time for you to let this issue go and move on. "

1- If op got his answers, then why did you make that long post with all those links ?

2- I did not make any claims without basis, trying to prove it. I just showed that the writer made an erroneous claim. My plant have been out there for almost 50 days and better than 80% of this time night temperature have been under 46F and day temps under 65F. And yet they are thriving and have started fruiting.

That is the end of story.

This post was edited by seysonn on Sat, May 24, 14 at 22:46

Thank you, Dave and seysonn...

I will spray separately.

I am somewhat of a small gardener (aside from my stature =D) - I have 6 tomato plants (one Sweet Millions cherry, one Sungold cherry, one Cherokee Purple, two Pomodoro Pantano and a mystery plant - a gift from a friend - she said it was 'Cambodian') and some Thai basil, Greek oregano and a couple of Bell peppers. I have African Blue basil (to attract pollinators) and I also have let Fennel reseed itself (again, to attract pollinators).

This year, I have planted in my front yard which is a xeriscape (rotating away from the back and side yards - RKN problems)...since the only plant I have paired is the Pomodoro Pantano, I will use one of these as a control...Next year, I plan to build boxes in the driveway for the annual plants (3-4 boxes so I can rotate my crops).

As an old school computer programmer, I am aware of the perils of doing too many things at once and then wondering what change caused what result. ;-)

seysonn - When you say 'spray Epsom Salt from time to time for fast action', what are you referring to?

Note: As far as I can tell, aspirin (which breaks down to acetic acid and salicylic acid in water) has been researched and proven to be beneficial to tomatoes (and other crops as well)...here is one of the pieces of information I have gleaned from the ubiquitous Internet...

From the link below:

'CONCLUSION:
Salicylic acid is considered to be a potent plant hormone because of its diverse regulatory roles in plant metabolism. It is well-established fact that salicylic acid potentially generates a wide array of metabolic responses in plants and also affects the photosynthetic parameters which enhance plant growth and yield. It may, therefore be concluded that the sustained increase in the observed parameters expectedly culminated in maximization of the process of biomass accumulation leading to higher productivity, lycopene, vitamin C content of tomato fruit and as well as fruit Brix index.'

Here is a link that might be useful: Effects of salicylic acid on yield and quality characters of tomato fruit (Lycopersicum esculentum Mill.)

From human standpoint if aspirin was invented today it would not pass FDA. Anyone knows if plant and tomato itself does absorb it... i.e. will you be eating aspirin...

I'm still hardening off (plants haven't seen much sun since it's been cloudy/rainy here, have had a few sunny days they got AM eastern sun but not full day sun yet). It's going to be 45 as a low Wed and I have a lot of other things to do (still trying to get high tunnel together and beds prepped in it, have to plant beans and cukes and such - haven't even taken soil temp yet) so I think it will be 29th and after for me. I haven't even started hardening off the tomatoes I started April 6 (and ones DD started 4/17) or the peppers yet.

Next year with the tunnel up I'm hoping to put the transplants out in it the end of April.

out today - hooray, hooray

Here's your post Carolyn

Blossom End Rot (BER) is one of the most common tomato problems seen in the early part of the season. It is a physiological condition, not a disease caused by a fungus or a bacterium or a virus. Therefore it cannot be treated.

And as I'll explain below, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to
prevent. BER has nothing to do with the blossoms, it refers to the fact that at the end of the tomato opposite the place where the tomato is attached to the stem, called the stem end, is the bottom of the tomato, which is called the blossom end. You often can see remnants of the blossom attached to that end as the tomato forms. At the blossom end one sees a flattened area that looks
leathery and initially brown and then black, as the fruit rots.

BER is said to occur when there is uneven watering, drought, heavy rainfall, excessive nitrogen fertilization, rapid plant growth or root pruning during cultivation, high winds and rapid temperature changes. So lots of conditions have been associated with BER. But the rapid plant growth and nitrogen fertilization are both common to conditions seen early in the season, and indeed, that is when most BER occurs. Then it usually just goes away.

BER occurs because under the conditions just stated, Ca++ moves from the fruit into the vasculature (stems) of the plant. Or, some feel that Ca++ never reaches the fruits becasue under stress demand for Ca++ exceeds supply.This lowered amount of Ca++ is what causes BER. Excessive rates of transpiration (kind of like sweating in humans) also is involved in Ca++ displacement. Thus, the plant as a whole is NOT Ca++ deficient, the Ca++ has just been displaced.

It has been shown that plants that have normal Ca++ levels in the stems can have BER fruits, so the problem is not one of lack of uptake from Ca++ in the soil.

Many books and magazine articles tell you that by adding Ca++ in the form of lime or eggshells, for instance, that you can prevent BER. That does NOT appear to be true. It was several years ago that I found out that University field trial experiments have so far failed to show that BER can be prevented by addition
of Ca++. I recently e-mailed my friend at Cornell who told me all this two years ago, to again confirm that it was still true, and will update you, if necessary. Peppers and many cole crops are also susceptible to BER and there's quite a bit of literature on BER and Ca++ for those crops also. The results are the same; addition of Ca++ does not prevent BER.

Some data strongly suggests that foliar spraying with Ca++ is of no use because not enough gets to the fruits to do any good. And it's known that the sprays for fruits that are sold are useless. No molecules can get across the fruit epidermis. If they did, just what do you think would happen to the fruits when it rained.LOL

However, use of Ca++ sprays on small still green fruits, again, has been shown by some, not many, to help since the epidermis of those small fruits is more permeable,

Not all varieties of tomatoes get BER. Some never do, others are horrible. That's not surprising since certainly there are slight physiological differences between varieties. After all, almost all garden tomatoes, with the exception of the currant tomatoes are in the same genus and species, Solanum lycopersicum. And we humans are all in the same species, Homo sapiens, var. sapiens...and look how different some of our physiologies are.
Whoa!

So, BER is a physiological condition, cannot be cured, and current
literature data suggests it cannot be prevented. It occurs on some, but not all varieties of tomatoes, is usually seen early in the season and then stops, for most folks. It would be nice to say that you could even out your watering, prevent droughts and heavy rainfalls, ensure even and not rapid growth of plants and not disturb the roots by shallow cultivating. But on a practical basis, I think we all know that's almost impossible. So, BER has never bothered me, I just ignore it, and it goes away with time.

Adding Ca++ to soils that are Ca++ deficient makes sense, but few soils are. And if soils are acidic, Ca++ is not taken up well but addition of Epsom Salts to the soil can aid in Ca++ uptake in such acidic soils.

Many folks add Ca++ and then see that BER disappears. What they fail to realize is that BER is going to go away anyway, as the season progresses. And that's because as the plants get larger they are better able to handle the many stresses that can induce it. So one cannot correlate addition of Ca++ to disappearance of BER. Universities have done so many stidies on this already
because BER is a billion dollar problem in the commercial veggie industry.

Of all the stresses that can induce BER the two that are most under control of the home gardener are fertilization and water delivery.

That is, too much fertilizer causes plants to grow too rapidly and is perhaps one of the major causes of BER developing. Too rich soils do the same thing. Plant growth simply outstrips the ability of Ca++ to get to the fruits.

Mulching to help ensure even delivery of water also can be done and is also one of the two major causes, IMHO, of BER.

BER appears usually on half ripe fruits but also can appear on grass green ones.Lack of Ca++ only occurs at the blossom end of the fruit and it causes tissue destruction which leads to that papery greyish/blackish lesion appearing.Now sometimes that lesion opens up and fungi and bacteria enter and that causes the rotting and also the appearance of fungal growth on and in the lesion.

Sometimes one can see what's called internal BER and that's seen when you cut open a tomato and the insides are black but there are no external symptoms of BER.

Just pick off any BER fruits that appear and soon the next fruits to ripen will BERless.

Many books, magazine articles and websites still say to add Ca++ as lime, eggshells, etc, and seem not to be aware of all the research that has been done in the last 30 years. But many books, magazine articles, are now sharing this newer information about addition of Ca++ not being able to either prevent or cure BER except in rare situations of low Ca++ soils or acidic soils.

I suppose it will take another generation for the right information to be present everywhere. And from my own experience i can tell you that there will be folks who will get madder than can be when they read this kind of info because they simply believe otherwise. So be it. Addition of modest amounts of Ca++ aren' t harmful, but I feel strongly that folks should know what's going on with past and current research re BER and Ca++.

&&&&&&&

Hope the above helps.

Carolyn

Dave

Thanks so much Dave b/c when I tried and tried to cut and paste it it wouldn't work at all bc adjacent areas were highlighted, but the software there is not the same as here, so now I'm going to try and cut and paste it from here to put in my faves. ( smile)

Carolyn