16,949 Garden Web Discussions | Growing Tomatoes
While the jury is still out. Why not try a foliar spray with a product that contains both chelated calcium and chelated magnesium. Organic of course! A foliar spray will not change your soils PH or your plants genetics but I have used it and it did work.
Tim
Blossom end rot has many causes. But the good news is that it ususally goes away as the plants mature and can better handle the many stresses that can induce it. It used to be thought that BER was due to a lack of calcium but research has shown that plants with BER fruits have plenty of calcium.
Here's a post I wrote about BER and perhaps it will help explain some of the issues:
Blossom End Rot (BER) is one of the most common tomato problems seen in the early part of the season. It is a physiological condition, not a disease caused by a fungus or a bacterium or a virus. Therefore it cannot be treated.
And as I'll explain below, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to
prevent. BER has nothing to do with the blossoms, it refers to the fact that at the end of the tomato opposite the place where the tomato is attached to the stem, called the stem end, is the bottom of the tomato, which is called the blossom end. You often can see remnants of the blossom attached to that end as the tomato forms. At the blossom end one sees a flattened area that looks
leathery and initially brown and then black, as the fruit rots.
BER is said to occur when there is uneven watering, drought, heavy rainfall, excessive nitrogen fertilization, rapid plant growth or root pruning during cultivation, high winds and rapid temperature changes. So lots of conditions have been associated with BER. But the rapid plant growth and nitrogen fertilization are both common to conditions seen early in the season, and indeed, that is when most BER occurs. Then it usually just goes away.
BER occurs because under the conditions just stated, Ca++ moves from the fruit into the vasculature (stems) of the plant. Or, some feel that Ca++ never reaches the fruits because under stress demand for Ca++ exceeds supply.This lowered amount of Ca++ is what causes BER. Excessive rates of transpiration (kind of like sweating in humans) also is involved in Ca++ displacement. Thus, the plant as a whole is NOT Ca++ deficient, the Ca++ has just been displaced.
Many books and magazine articles tell you that by adding Ca++ in the form of lime or eggshells, for instance, that you can prevent BER. That does NOT appear to be true. It was several years ago that I found out that University field trial experiments have so far failed to show that BER can be prevented by addition
of Ca++. I recently e-mailed my friend at Cornell who told me all this two years ago, to again confirm that it was still true, and will update you, if necessary. Peppers and many cole crops are also susceptible to BER and there's quite a bit of literature on BER and Ca++ for those crops also. The results are the same; addition of Ca++ does not prevent BER.
Some data strongly suggests that foliar spraying with Ca++ is of no use because not enough gets to the fruits to do any good. And it's known that the sprays for fruits that are sold are usless. No molecules can get across the fruit epidermis except when the fruits are still small and green. If they did, just what do you think would happen to the fruits when it rained.LOL
Not all varieties of tomatoes get BER. Some never do, others are horrible. That's not surprising since certainly there are slight physiological differences between varieties. After all, almost all garden tomatoes, with the exception of the currant tomatoes are in the same genus and species, Solanum lycopersicum. And we humans are all in the same species, Homo sapiens, var. sapiens...and look how different some of our physiologies are.
Whoa!
So, BER is a physiological condition, cannot be cured, and current
literature data suggests it cannot be prevented. It occurs on some, but not all varieties of tomatoes, is usually seen early in the season and then stops, for most folks. It would be nice to say that you could even out your watering, prevent droughts and heavy rainfalls, ensure even and not rapid growth of plants and not disturb the roots by shallow cultivating. But on a practical basis, I think we all know that's almost impossible. So, BER has never bothered me, I just ignore it, and it goes away with time.
Adding Ca++ to soils that are Ca++ deficient makes sense, but few soils are. And if soils are acidic, Ca++ is not taken up well but addition of Epsom Salts to the soil can aid in Ca++ uptake in such acidic soils.
Many folks add Ca++ and then see that BER disappears. What they fail to realize is that BER is going to go away anyway, as the season progresses. And that's because as the plants get larger they are better able to handle the many stresses that can induce it. So one cannot correlate addition of Ca++ to disappearance of BER. Universities have done so many stidies on this already
because BER is a billion dollar problem in the commercial veggie industry.
Of all the stresses that can induce BER the two that are most under control of the home gardener are fertilization and water delivery.
That is, too much fertilizer causes plants to grow too rapidly and is perhaps one of the major causes of BER developing. Too rich soils do the same thing. Plant growth simply outstrips the ability of Ca++ to get to the fruits.
Mulching to help ensure even delivery of water also can be done and is also one of the two major causes, IMHO, of BER.
BER appears usually on half ripe fruits but also can appear on grass green ones.Lack of Ca++ only occurs at the blossom end of the fruit and it causes tissue destruction which leads to that papery greyish/blackish lesion appearing.Now sometimes that lesion opens up and fungi and bacteria enter and that causes the rotting and also the appearance of fungal growth on and in the lesion.
Just pick off any BER fruits that appear and soon the next fruits to ripen will BERless.
Many books, magazine articles and websites still say to add Ca++ as lime, eggshells, etc, and seem not to be aware of all the research that has been done in the last 20 years. But many books, magazine articles, are now sharing this newer information about addition of Ca++ not being able to either prevent or cure BER except in rare situations of low Ca++ soils or acidic soils.
I suppose it will take another generation for the right information to be present everywhere. And from my own experience i can tell you that there will be folks who will get madder than can be when they read this kind of info becasue they simply believe otherwise. So be it. LOL Addition of modest amounts of Ca++ aren' t harmful, but I feel strongly that folks should know what's going on with past and current rsearch re BER and Ca++.
Hope the above helps.
Carolyn
BP... thanks! I will check in a couple of months as folks start listing what they will have for sale for next year and if I can't find any I will surely let you know. I hope for goodness sake that Joyce's have a back-up plan!!!
Seysonn - I've never grown any of the other varieties so I can't compare them for you. All I can vouch for is that Estler's is the original and all the others are copies! (You can do a search and it will bring up several previous discussions about it.)
Edie
Actually I thought someone at Joyces told me that Mrs Estler had been in and that she would be cutting back rather than stopping production. Is Mrs Estler still going strong? Or maybe some other relative? The plants were about a buck fifty in 4" sq pots....very nice. They in turn sell plants to a couple of other vendors, Southern States being one.
Pale Perfect Purple is like Eva Purple Ball and is very productive. I think Tania needs a better picture of it. In my garden it is more perfect than most tomatoes although I don't mind the irregular big beefsteaks. Wes is good for salsa because it is meaty but you want a medium sized tomato. Black and Brown Boar is a small black tomato - just the size to slice to put on a cracker.
Here is a link that might be useful: Pale Perfect Purple
pale perfect purple. Mine look more pink than this. It is not called early but probably early midseason. I copied this picture from the web. It is a pretty pink tomato with potato leaves.
JoeOrganic,
I love cheap too, but I also know value. Value in the fact that better seedling growth in the early stages can make a big difference. The 2 foot - 4 lamp fixture I use is ideal, and I've seen the best small plants take off and become my best in terms of yield, and so I would recommend something, or exactly like in the link below.
Here is a link that might be useful: ebay seller 99% positive results
In agreement with simmran ,
It is all about time and your efforts that both are so much more valuable than 30, 40 bucks. By starting from seeds we aim to extend our season and beat the mother nature at her own game.
Of course, another alternative is to buy established seedlings when the time comes to plant. But it would be even more costly AND you may not be able to find a variety that you are interested in. That is exactly the reason I want to start from seed. I will also implement some purchases of the ordinary varieties.
I think Tania or someone from a cold area said that tomatoes are grown in greenhouses in cold areas. So a tomato from British Columbia, for example, may not be really adapted to a cool area. I look at the posts of people from Texas to get ideas for tomatoes that can take the heat, but I know they start their tomatoes early and try to get them producing before the heat gets too bad. To me it seems it would be faster to grow many different tomatoes and then come up with a list of those that like your conditions. There was another fellow on here I think he was from zone 4. He was trying to develop a tomato for his conditions. He got into a little trouble here for calling paste tomatoes flawed and rejects, but they were rejects for his particular climate. He sounded like he was trying to do what you are doing. The description for Barlow Japanese says the original tomato was weak and this man selected the strongest plants and developed that variety. Who knows it is was mutations or crosses that caused the improvement.
Thank you for sharing information!
my thoughts... life of tree or animal is far longer than annual tomato, and for warmer climate they can even get spring and fall gathering so selection over time by growing conditions etc happens much faster for tomatoes, while it is not done in a year or two, if it takes only 6 years to stabilize new variety why not think that within same genotype selection by phenotype for most vigorous, best productive, tastiest etc does not happen at same rate?
BTW regarding cold tolerance I.B. Michurin who was crossing cold tolerant varieties with distant ¨tender¨ varieties noted that providing such crosses with rich humucy soil was detrimental to crosses and decreased their cold tolerance. I think he even had to move his entire operation to different area with more harsh conditions to get his crosses to retain cold tolerant qualities...
It has been long time since I studied genetics and botany though...
I agree with qaguy, chicken wire would be too large, and unless you covered it completely(no opening in the top) I don't think you can prevent the moths from laying their eggs on your plants. The good news is they are one of the easiest garden pests to get rid of (often done for you by parasitic wasps) and as long as you check your garden often you should be fine.
I actually think hornworms are neat-looking and the moths they become are actually very pretty :-)
Many tomato diseases are regional, so I'm not going to comment until you share with us , just roughly, in a geographic sense where you garden and a gardening zone would sure help.
I first checked Your Page for your location since none was given next to your user name, but no info was there either.
Carolyn, going on an assumption of possible S CA coastal.
Thanks. Good advice. There has been plenty of applied compost and dug-in mulch over the years, so I think I'm OK. Also, as noted, these tomatoes at this location produce strongly in the spring. I've just never tried going for fall production.
I'm in SoCal and have heard about late crops in my
area too. I've tried a few times, but never have gotten
anything worth the effort to keep the plants going.
I do manage to keep them going through late Sep, but
it's fruit that set earlier in the year, not new fruit set.
I'm currently building a new raised bed, so healthy or even diseased plants will be put on the bottom under cardboard. So I have no worries about any fungal spores splashing up onto next years plants. And a couple years down the road, the plants can take advantage of the compost. I also add coffee and filters, and various other waste plant material, leaves, shells, rinds, sticks etc. Leaves are always shredded, although that matters little 12 inches down at bottom of raised bed. I have 5 raised beds I did this too, and it's working really well My 6th bed is for beans, at least next year. I guess the technique I use is very similar to lasagna gardening techniques.
In the furure I will bury waste deep in beds as mentioned by others in this thread. Keeping soil rich is a constant effort. Currently I need to wait till beds compost what's there now, it will take a bit.
I am in a different climate, SandraInSpain, and I hope you get some ideas from our Texas/Arizona gardeners. My climate is very much like the mountaneous north of yours (like in Burgos :o).
My grandmother was from Texas and raised a family in Oklahoma and New Mexico. She grew and liked Porter tomatoes. There are other, much more modern, varieties that I have not grown but Porter takes our arid, sunny summers here very well.
Thessaloniki is another heirloom tomato that I grow. As you can tell by the name, it was originally from Greece. It does just fine.
Growing advice? Keep the soil moist. Maybe afternoon shade would help.
Steve
Perhaps you can do two planting : One very early spring, as early as possible(say late March ). This way you will needs real nice size seedling (nursery grown or your own indoor grown). You should start picking ripe tomatoes around mid June(depends on variety). Then start another planting, like in late June-early july to bear fruits late summer and early fall.
That is how some gardeners do in Florida(USA). When the summer highs hit 38C(100F) most tomato plants either slow down quite a bit or even shut down production.
And I think DETERMINAT varieties are better for you.
Well blight is a fungus, so I suppose it possible spores could remain on the cage. Both options could damage metal, but not that much. Use mulch next year to keep soil spashes down. I use pine hay, as I have an unlimited supply. Works well for gardens and pots.
I don't know what you mean by blight. People use that word to describe all sorts of fungal and bacterial diseases that effect tomatoes. It looks like you're in Illinois, and according to USAblight.org, there were no reports of late blight in your area, so it's unlikely to be that. It's more likely alternaria, sometimes called Early Blight. You might want to read the other thread on this forum called Spray regime for tomatoes. There's a long passage copied from Dr. Carolyn Male that describes the different tomato diseases.
On your specific question, most tomato diseases cannot survive winter on a tomato cage. To be safe, you could wipe down your cages with soapy water or diluted (10-1) bleach or vinegar. But don't risk hurting yourself with straight bleach or fire.
Saood,
Winter growing sounds like it will work well! Tomatoes grow very well in the heat, but will not produce flowers. I think yours will considering time of year. 86 degrees is when it is too hot for flowers for most tomatoes, some exceptions exist. They might not need shade cloth, and once temps drop below 86, flowers and fruit will form. Often if they have fruit when temps go up, they go into stasis, not producing more flowers, but will once temps drop. I would experiment and try one under the cloth, one without. Although again the winter temps are not that extreme.
From what you say, it might be best to grow plants to fruit in January. You could do this if you grow from seed. I guess about right now is when you would start. Many seed exchanges exist, I'm sure many would send you seeds.
With tomatoes, their are a bunch of small seed sellers. Often promoting their own varieties. All the plants you mention can be grown by seed. Cucumbers are super easy! Direct sow. Other tomato forums exist, but are not allowed to be mentioned here. One is great with advice, vendors, recipes, it's very cool.
Thanks Drew
Yes. I bought some seeds also and they have germinated also. Now I am stuck with how to care for them when I have no grow light and appropriate arrangement of provide them a closer florescent light.
Thanks anyways for your advice. Appreciate it a lot.
I got curious and did some investigating on Tania's Tomatobase to see what other designations she used in the Variety type info. I randomly looked at a bunch of different tomatoes and came up with these. There may be more.
Variety type:
commercial
heirloom
created heirloom
family heirloom
hybrid
off type, stabilized accidental cross
off type, unknown
open-pollinated
open-pollinated, commercial
open-pollinated, de-hybridized
open-pollinated, heirloom
open-pollinated, stabilized accidental cross
unstable segregation line
And sometimes she leaves Variety Type blank for those tomatoes with only partial information available.
When I see the combined terms, it looks to me like she is using it as for added info on tomato origins, and not necessarily as a descriptor for the current state of the seeds. So you would have to check any further grow out notes to discover the current state of F generation of the seeds.
I would be confident that any seeds she sells would be quite stable and I would think growing two plants would be sufficient - to compare the two, as well to have a back up plant in case one did not do well.
Thanks for answers!
I am not questioning quality or info at the least, my interest rather theoretical on what to do on my end.
Am firmly in with my Russian seeds too LOL some of them my parents used to grow so hoping for same...
This post was edited by lindalana on Fri, Oct 4, 13 at 14:09
My Sweet 100's went nuts.
If I plant early seedlings and weather still cold they just going to sit and wait... my experience using WOW is best if you have chance or floating row covers, temporary cold frame etc. Just planting out early does nothing to improve timing, although there are some varieties that will have better fruit set during cool weather.
Chicago weather can have cool summer or hot summer so this is one reason why I plant many different varieties, there will be something that works best for whatever weather we are going to have.