16,949 Garden Web Discussions | Growing Tomatoes
i_am_gray, are you growing in containers? What is your planting medium (dirt, potting mix, etc.)?
What size and color are the "fat small worms" you found?
Am I correct in understanding that you are finding the branches on the ground? Are leaves missing, or is the only damage the branch being removed from the plant? Does the break look like a cut ... or does it look chewed ... or does it look torn? Photos would help, if possible.
Are these "branches" suckers, compound leaves, or flower clusters?
Yes i do grow my plants in containers because there are too many critters running around my backyard. I'm using potting mix, mixed with a bit of manure.
Well i would guess that the worms were about half to an inch big and when I picked them up they curled into balls and they were a off-white slightly gray in color. I found one branch on the ground and another one was almost cut off but not completely so it was hanging down and it literally feels like someone took a knife to the branches. I think the only damage so far is the branches being removed but I'm not a %100 sure.
I'll post pics up as soon as i can and as for what types of branches they are I'm not entirely sure but I'll have the info asap too.
Thank you for replying and helping :)
As I posted in your update, perhaps clopyralid or aminopyralid contamination of manures & compost. Symptoms are essentially the same as from 2,4-D.
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/soilmgmt/Clopyralid.htm
Describes an easy bioassay gardeners can do without having the plant analyzed.
Here is a link that might be useful: contaminated organic matter
Tomato Leaves that curl like a fiddlehead fern? Read up on Aminopyralid residues in compost and manure! I had the honor of having 8 tomatoes take a dive! and beans, peppers. spinach and eggplant too. The herbcides are made by Dow chemical and will pass through horses and cows to the manure, then take a year or more to break down. This Sucks!
Here is a link that might be useful: herbacide contamination of organic matter
Like Dickie said, a Google search by name finds for example:
"LaRoma III VFFNA Hybrid #5183 One of the very best 'Italian-type' tomatoes known for its outstanding vigor and uniformity has become even better. Big yields of 5 to 8 oz. fruit are produced on large, vigorous plants with excellent disease resistance. Expect larger fruit and healthier plants than with the standard Roma. Determinate. 76 days." tomatogrowers.com
"Tumbler" is just Burpee's name for Tumbling Tom.
"The best tomato for hanging baskets and containers . Produces up to 6 pounds of sweet, bright red cherry tomatoes, 1" in diameter. Extremely early harvest in less than 50 days." Burpeee
They claim it is an exclusive but that's only because they change the names of varieties so often
All the varieties you list are very common varieties, grown by many. They are all are hybrids.
Dave
What you are seeking to do is very unusual and is difficult to pull off successfully. And there is quite a bit of cost attached so consider it carefully.
Even those of us who grow in a greenhouse encounter problems that outside plants don't have and it will be almost impossible for you to provide as much full spectrum light as is available in a greenhouse.
At a minimum you will need several CFC fixtures as Jill mentioned above. Compact fluorescent light fixtures come in many different sizes and shapes but most use 4 foot shop lights with 2-4 4' T8 bulbs in them. Some will add special grow light bulbs to provide the full spectrum that the plants will need to bloom and set fruit. Metal halide fixtures is even better that CFC's but substantially more expensive.
For all those plants it would mean hanging them 2-3 fixtures deep and at least 2 fixtures long, something like 4' x 8' area. With the lights suspended no more than 2" above the tops of the plants. The goal is to provide the plants with the maximum number of lumens possible with a full sun spectrum of light.
You'll find a number of pictures and discussions about various light set-ups over on the Growing Under Lights forum here.
Dave
PS: Your Bush Early Girls will need at least a 5 gallon container but bigger will be better. The Patios will do ok in 5 gallons.
missruthy, I looked in the most likely databases to see what they might say about the size of your varieties. Ventmarin, a huge French database, gave Bush Early Girl's height as 23-31" (odd numbers are due to the original info being in centimeters). The forum I can't name lists it in the 24-36" category and recommends spacing them 24" apart. A contributor at Cornell's Vegetable Varieties said they would be 18" tall.
Bush Early Girl is a determinate, which means the plant will stop growing after a certain number of branches or flower clusters. Pruning it will reduce the size of the crop, but you're the best judge of what will work for you.
Unfortunately none of the three databases had ever heard of Sweetheart of the Patio. However, I found a Chicago Tribune article online that said "about 2' tall."
===
rnewste, aka Raybo (who I think mostly hangs out on the Container forum), builds his own self-watering containers. The building aspect is not something I want to tackle myself, but I'm mentioning him to show that people can grow indoors successfully, even in winter. This is the construction guide for Raybo's indoor containers, which he designed for growing tomatoes. The photos I'd like you to look at are on p. 13:
http://earthtainer.tomatofest.com/pdfs/InnTainer-Construction-Guide.pdf
The silver shelf units in Raybo's photos look like the ones I have in my basement (mine are black; I've also seen some in white). They're a pain to put together, but you can configure and re-configure them any way you want (shelves are adjustable to every inch), and they're tremendously strong. Mine are 18" x 48" and about 6' tall.
I've seen these shelves at Lowe's, Target (that was 6 years ago and I don't know if they still carry them), and maybe Wal-mart, as well as in catalogs. They're not cheap, but neither are the light supports designed for starting seeds or growing indoors, and if the gardening doesn't succeed, shelves are always useful for storage.
Anyway, I mention the shelves because if you're using 4' fluorescent lights, it's ideal to have sturdy 4' wide shelves from which to hang them. Or you may wish to hang the lights from the shelves cross-ways to cover more space.
I currently use some of my shelves for starting seedlings. I've thought of trying to grow small tomato plants there, but even though my basement is a walk-out and relatively warm, I'm not sure how tomatoes would feel about fruiting there in the winter....
If you want to make your own self-watering containers, there are various plans on the web, including some that use 2 5-gallon pails (I know I saw something recently, perhaps on this forum?). But even if you don't use Raybo's plan, his comments would be useful to you.
Sometimes I wish I had a south-facing window. But this house was built with tiny windows to keep down a/c costs, and none at all on the south wall. And south is the direction the golf balls come from!
thanks! Not sure if I am just being impatient then... i dont remember how long they've been like this. Maybe 3 weeks?
Here are pics of them toms, and a pic of the general plant.
The leaves on the bottm are paler, not yellow yet but just paler. All on top are fine.
Appreciate any other comments!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57048076@N06/7322890168/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57048076@N06/7322890436/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57048076@N06/7322890900/in/photostream
Not sure if I am just being impatient then
Yes it just impatience. I wasn't kidding above when I said 6 weeks. Tomato plants run in approximately 6 week cycles give or take a week depending on variety and weather.
As the timeline link shows it is approximately 40-45 days from full size fruit to color break and then a few more days until ripened. If your fruit have been full sized - and who can really tell since you don't know the variety name - for about 3 weeks then you have approx. another 3 weeks to go.
However since your fruit are still quite dark green I think it will be a little longer than that.
Dave
It all depends on why they are poorly performing seedlings? Starting determinate varieties from seed is no different from starting indeterminate varieties. So it's the cause of the poor performance that needs to be addressed, not the plant type.
Assuming they are healthy when transplanted to their final growing place then the genetics of the variety kicks in, regardless of which type they are, and determines performance.
Dave
I had never tried to start any kind of seedling before. Last year I just bought some indeterminate seedlings. I thought it would be interesting to try some determinate and "semi-determinate" types, since you can't get those as seedlings (at least that I have seen). And, I was very attracted to the reduced staking/pruning requirements.
Anyhow, the reasons for my seedlings poor early performance are many and varied. I had some hairy fungus on like day 2, which I treated with cinnamon. My lighting was 4 40W fluorescent shop lights with not exactly even spacing. I was growing just a couple each of 8 tomato varieties and a couple different varieties of peppers. So, even when everything was growing as expected, keeping correct spacing from the lights was not achieved. As I potted things up, I ran out of room inside and had some in a cold frame outside with inconsistent amounts of light, and it was still on the cold side even inside the frame since I started a few weeks early, expecting to screw something up so bad that I would have to start from scratch. I had one I started really early intending to grow it in a pot indoors that I almost lost to too much water (it's doing well on my deck now), so then I underwatered everything else for a while...
Despite my many mistakes, about a third of my seedlings seemed to do just fine, another third were bad enough I just tossed them in the compost. 2 of them I put in the ground under the cold frame super early are doing extremely well. I have limited space in my garden, so it would be a boon to know early if I should give up on something.
I know that if you have some really sad looking indeterminate plants, they'll be behind a healthy-looking counterpart, but since they just grow forever, you just lose a week or 2 of growth/tomatoes. But, if the determinate plant is destined to grow for just 4 months then die, if you have 1 month of stunted growth, it seems like it couldn't possibly make up that lost time. It would just end up half as big and give little or no fruit, since it would be dying before it was big enough. OR, maybe it keeps growing until it gets to a certain size then dies, in which case it would just be behind schedule...
Tomatoes are heavy feeders and need lots of nutrients. You should have started feeding long ago (based on the size of the fruit in the background).
You should use some water soluble fertilizer with higher amount of potash (go for 15-15-19 or 19-19-25 or some similar N-P-K ratio) and with micronutrients (Ca, Mg...). You are dealing with multiple nutrient deficiencies and your plant needs them fast (water soluble fert nutrients are readily available to plant, so i'd strongly advise you to use those). Always follow directions for use on the label, over-feeding can hurt them too.
Good Luck,
Djole
Unless you plan to give away your existing MG to someone who gardens, I say use it up first. Do I love MG? No. Would I buy Espoma over MG if I went to a store that sold both today? Yes. Do I hate to see people waste money searching for the PERFECT solution when 'good enough' will do? Yes (although I have to own a lifetime of not always living this). Take a deep breath, live, love and laugh (preferably in the garden). Then, when you run out of fertilizer, either buy Espoma (Tomatone) or check here to see if people recommend something they like even more that your local store has.
I sure love what tomato-tone does for the overall look of tomatoes! Here's also a site that sells tomato-tone: http://www.gardenharvestsupply.com/ProductCart/pc/Espoma-Tomato-tone-3-4-6-8-lb-bag-p6036.htm
When spraying neem oil, it's a good idea to spray plain water the next day after spraying neem to help wash off the oil residue. Sometimes the oil can inhibit the leaves to "breathe" so spraying plain water (spray to dripping) helps to wash off the residue. In the 24 hours between sprayings, the neem is doing the work it needs to and can then be washed off the next day.
Dave-
I apologize to you and everyone else for the huge size of the pictures.
I'll definitely make them more compact next time I post any.
Treemama-
Thank you for the advice. I didn't know that I was supposed to do this. But, I know it wasn't the neem oil or the transplanting that made the leaves like this. They already looked like this when I brought them home from the store. I just want to prevent it from getting worse.
Because they say true doesn't mean it wont be a tomato of some form. I have volunteers every year, and it is anybodys guess what the fruit will be. But I like surprises.
The heirlooms I grow, the seeds will produce that same variety. Enjoy your freebies.
The range shown on that chart is very narrow and doesn't really indicate pH's higher than the about 4.5 or so that have been shown for some varieties. The higher the pH number the lower the acidity.
There are few varieties that have been documented to have low acid, Jet Star F1 is one of them, there are a few others as well, but I just don't have the time right now to go searching.
Most pastel colored varieties are said here and there to have low acid, but they don't, it's just that the higher sugar content masks the normal pH.
I'm sure some of you who can tomatoes have seen the warning with Jet Star F1, for instance, which advises adding citric acid or what ever, and that acidification was also expanded to all tomatoes to be canned. The reason being that if the open water bath method is used, an acidic environment is necessary to inactivate any botulism spores that might be there.
Dotty, you may be having an allergic response to some of the antigens ( proteins) in tomatoes and it may not be related to the pH of varieties. Just a possibility I'm bringing up. If you do a search here at GW I know you'll come up with other threads where allergies to tomatoes has been discussed.
Carolyn
Thanks for the responses. The chart came up well on your link Missing. I'll check out the German varieties for this area and will look at the allergies. I wonder too if I am using too much salt...darn it, I love tomato sandwiches so I'll have to experiment. Thanks again.
Hi, snake_grower. What kind of split stems do you have?
For instance, there are stems that split when a branch is bumped too hard -- or perhaps is buffeted by a wind storm -- or bends over under heavy fruit weight.
There are also stems that have a small split for no apparent reason and remain upright. The split might be an inch or so long and is relatively shallow. Later what are called adventitious roots appear in the split. These roots look like white bumps; people may assume an insect laid eggs inside the stem. [Stems don't have to split for adventitious roots to appear, however.]
Adventitious roots form for many reasons. Sometimes the plant has a stem problem (like a borer) or a disease which affects the stem. Sometimes adventitious roots form in humid conditions, or where a stem contacts moist soil. There are probably other reasons I don't know about.
Google Image search: tomato adventitious roots
http://www.walterreeves.com/gardening-q-and-a/tomato-roots-on-stem/
Thanks for your help. When looking at the pictures on the sites you forwarded, I don't think the plants had the adventureous root problem. The stems just seem to split and the splits can be 1 -4 inches long and some plants' stems split so badly, I will now have to pull them up and start with fresh plants. Thanks Again!
I just reviewed them and I don't see any that were deleted, the one on varieties should be since it's quite obsolete, and I don't see any major chages in ones that were here before but I do see several that were uploaded by Tamara who is the Moderator here.
Tamara, when I list them and indicate that some of yours I feel are incomplete I think it's fair to say that you did try to recruit some folks and I guess no one did, and I certainly didn't b'c I was heavily involved with the addition of all the ones you see that were uploaded by Paul and have the list of user names indicating who helped with each FAQ. And that was a serious and long process that I wouldn't wish on anyone b/c of the need for the inclusion of everyone ( see below).
What happened was back in maybe 1999 or 2000 the participants here decided that some new FAQ's should be done. No one volunteered to coordinate, so I did. So first we made a list of the FAQ's we thought needed to be done, then tackled them one by one. We never completed the suggested FAQ's b'c just doing the ones we did took forever.
The major problem was that I'm an egalitarian and wanted input from ALL who were GW members at the time and wanted to help which was also the opinion of most here at the time, while there were a few who wanted the FAQ's to be written by one person, with no input from anyone, and almost all of us did not want to do that at all. Even though at some sites someone will do that so all you get is one person's opinion on various FAQ's.
With that background I'll just go thru them in order:
Det vs indet, that was here when I came
BER, ditto
Varieties, ditto and should be deleted IMO
Blossom Drop, here when I came
Prune, here already, I think
Tomato Pests, maybe here, can't remember, but belongs in that Forum, not here, IMO
Different Leaves, I wrote most and Paul uploaded
Cross pollination, we did that and paul uploaded it
Start From Seed, we did it, uploaded by Paul
Seed Starting II, uploaded by Tamara, new and takes the above to the garden in a somewhat abbreviated manner
Upside down, new, uploaded by Tamara
Cracking, new, uploaded by Tamara and in my opinion is incomplete b'c there are three kinds of splitting, some genetic, some not
Ferts, new, uploaded by Tamara, ditto on incomplete
So that's how I see it and again, when I say incomplete I guess it's my own darn fault for not volunteering to generate a list of new FAQ's to be done and then coordinating the writing of them and uploading.
But not JUST my fault b'c it's clear that none of the participants who read/post here volunteered so Tamara decided to do it herself.
One clarification. Even where I said I wrote most of the leaf one, the final FAQ's that we did here and were uploaded were initially approved, after some serious haggling, LOL, by EVERYONE so that all opinions were taken under consideration in the final form of each uploaded FAQ.
Carolyn