16,949 Garden Web Discussions | Growing Tomatoes
It all depends on why they are poorly performing seedlings? Starting determinate varieties from seed is no different from starting indeterminate varieties. So it's the cause of the poor performance that needs to be addressed, not the plant type.
Assuming they are healthy when transplanted to their final growing place then the genetics of the variety kicks in, regardless of which type they are, and determines performance.
Dave
I had never tried to start any kind of seedling before. Last year I just bought some indeterminate seedlings. I thought it would be interesting to try some determinate and "semi-determinate" types, since you can't get those as seedlings (at least that I have seen). And, I was very attracted to the reduced staking/pruning requirements.
Anyhow, the reasons for my seedlings poor early performance are many and varied. I had some hairy fungus on like day 2, which I treated with cinnamon. My lighting was 4 40W fluorescent shop lights with not exactly even spacing. I was growing just a couple each of 8 tomato varieties and a couple different varieties of peppers. So, even when everything was growing as expected, keeping correct spacing from the lights was not achieved. As I potted things up, I ran out of room inside and had some in a cold frame outside with inconsistent amounts of light, and it was still on the cold side even inside the frame since I started a few weeks early, expecting to screw something up so bad that I would have to start from scratch. I had one I started really early intending to grow it in a pot indoors that I almost lost to too much water (it's doing well on my deck now), so then I underwatered everything else for a while...
Despite my many mistakes, about a third of my seedlings seemed to do just fine, another third were bad enough I just tossed them in the compost. 2 of them I put in the ground under the cold frame super early are doing extremely well. I have limited space in my garden, so it would be a boon to know early if I should give up on something.
I know that if you have some really sad looking indeterminate plants, they'll be behind a healthy-looking counterpart, but since they just grow forever, you just lose a week or 2 of growth/tomatoes. But, if the determinate plant is destined to grow for just 4 months then die, if you have 1 month of stunted growth, it seems like it couldn't possibly make up that lost time. It would just end up half as big and give little or no fruit, since it would be dying before it was big enough. OR, maybe it keeps growing until it gets to a certain size then dies, in which case it would just be behind schedule...
Tomatoes are heavy feeders and need lots of nutrients. You should have started feeding long ago (based on the size of the fruit in the background).
You should use some water soluble fertilizer with higher amount of potash (go for 15-15-19 or 19-19-25 or some similar N-P-K ratio) and with micronutrients (Ca, Mg...). You are dealing with multiple nutrient deficiencies and your plant needs them fast (water soluble fert nutrients are readily available to plant, so i'd strongly advise you to use those). Always follow directions for use on the label, over-feeding can hurt them too.
Good Luck,
Djole
Unless you plan to give away your existing MG to someone who gardens, I say use it up first. Do I love MG? No. Would I buy Espoma over MG if I went to a store that sold both today? Yes. Do I hate to see people waste money searching for the PERFECT solution when 'good enough' will do? Yes (although I have to own a lifetime of not always living this). Take a deep breath, live, love and laugh (preferably in the garden). Then, when you run out of fertilizer, either buy Espoma (Tomatone) or check here to see if people recommend something they like even more that your local store has.
I sure love what tomato-tone does for the overall look of tomatoes! Here's also a site that sells tomato-tone: http://www.gardenharvestsupply.com/ProductCart/pc/Espoma-Tomato-tone-3-4-6-8-lb-bag-p6036.htm
When spraying neem oil, it's a good idea to spray plain water the next day after spraying neem to help wash off the oil residue. Sometimes the oil can inhibit the leaves to "breathe" so spraying plain water (spray to dripping) helps to wash off the residue. In the 24 hours between sprayings, the neem is doing the work it needs to and can then be washed off the next day.
Dave-
I apologize to you and everyone else for the huge size of the pictures.
I'll definitely make them more compact next time I post any.
Treemama-
Thank you for the advice. I didn't know that I was supposed to do this. But, I know it wasn't the neem oil or the transplanting that made the leaves like this. They already looked like this when I brought them home from the store. I just want to prevent it from getting worse.
Because they say true doesn't mean it wont be a tomato of some form. I have volunteers every year, and it is anybodys guess what the fruit will be. But I like surprises.
The heirlooms I grow, the seeds will produce that same variety. Enjoy your freebies.
The range shown on that chart is very narrow and doesn't really indicate pH's higher than the about 4.5 or so that have been shown for some varieties. The higher the pH number the lower the acidity.
There are few varieties that have been documented to have low acid, Jet Star F1 is one of them, there are a few others as well, but I just don't have the time right now to go searching.
Most pastel colored varieties are said here and there to have low acid, but they don't, it's just that the higher sugar content masks the normal pH.
I'm sure some of you who can tomatoes have seen the warning with Jet Star F1, for instance, which advises adding citric acid or what ever, and that acidification was also expanded to all tomatoes to be canned. The reason being that if the open water bath method is used, an acidic environment is necessary to inactivate any botulism spores that might be there.
Dotty, you may be having an allergic response to some of the antigens ( proteins) in tomatoes and it may not be related to the pH of varieties. Just a possibility I'm bringing up. If you do a search here at GW I know you'll come up with other threads where allergies to tomatoes has been discussed.
Carolyn
Thanks for the responses. The chart came up well on your link Missing. I'll check out the German varieties for this area and will look at the allergies. I wonder too if I am using too much salt...darn it, I love tomato sandwiches so I'll have to experiment. Thanks again.
Hi, snake_grower. What kind of split stems do you have?
For instance, there are stems that split when a branch is bumped too hard -- or perhaps is buffeted by a wind storm -- or bends over under heavy fruit weight.
There are also stems that have a small split for no apparent reason and remain upright. The split might be an inch or so long and is relatively shallow. Later what are called adventitious roots appear in the split. These roots look like white bumps; people may assume an insect laid eggs inside the stem. [Stems don't have to split for adventitious roots to appear, however.]
Adventitious roots form for many reasons. Sometimes the plant has a stem problem (like a borer) or a disease which affects the stem. Sometimes adventitious roots form in humid conditions, or where a stem contacts moist soil. There are probably other reasons I don't know about.
Google Image search: tomato adventitious roots
http://www.walterreeves.com/gardening-q-and-a/tomato-roots-on-stem/
Thanks for your help. When looking at the pictures on the sites you forwarded, I don't think the plants had the adventureous root problem. The stems just seem to split and the splits can be 1 -4 inches long and some plants' stems split so badly, I will now have to pull them up and start with fresh plants. Thanks Again!
My wife once dug up a volunteer in our garden, planted it in the ground somewhere else, then dug it up again and put it in a pot (because it wasn't allowed where she planted it). It lived and made a couple of tomatoes. Obviously it didn't exactly thrive, but it had a late start anyway due to being a volunteer.
Tomatoes are next to impossible to kill, don't worry. You could hack it off at the ground and stick the severed head into the dirt and it will happily reroot and keep going like nothing happened.
Nothing short of putting your tomato plant in the blender will kill it.
Thanks, missingtheobvious i will try the mulch. The potting soils do not contain dirt as best as i can tell and they seem to drain well. I got some of the Daconil today and a small spray bottle but i have not used it yet as the label kinda scared me. I have a Jack Russell and he "helps" me water and i have caught him drinking the water out of the pots as i water. He is my very best buddy and i don't want to use anything that will hurt him. I pulled off the bottom yellow leaves and i am watering early in the day but i am really hesitant about that Daconil...it even mentioned something about not eating the fruit off the plants and i do have some small tomatoes on them.
Okay: I just read the info on my bottle of Daconil concentrate. Cover your skin, wear the appropriate kind of mask and goggles, and a shower afterward would be a good idea. Now I remember why I didn't use it last year.
it even mentioned something about not eating the fruit off the plants
Where did you see that? Why would they recommend it for use on tomatoes (not to mention other veggies) if you couldn't eat the fruit? What would be the point?
It says wash your hands before eating, but I can't find anything about washing the tomato or waiting a certain number of days after spraying before eating. In fact, in the PHI column ("days required between last application and harvest") it says zero for tomatoes.
I know Daconil binds to a certain site on tomato leaves (and stems?). Maybe it doesn't stick to the fruit?
But I'd think they'd say something about washing the fruit (or, for other veggies, the leaves or whatever)....
No hail, and not enough wind to do damage, I have 2 of them side by side in a large cedar planter in quality soil high in organic matter. I haven't caged them yet because they are growing very well and are quite bushy. I looked for insects or signs of them and nothing. The damage isn't severe, but I've never seen anything like this without knowing the cause. As long as it is a one time issue I should be fine. But if left to continue the health of them could deteriorate quickly. I'll try and post a pic tomorrow.
thanks! Not sure if I am just being impatient then... i dont remember how long they've been like this. Maybe 3 weeks?
Here are pics of them toms, and a pic of the general plant.
The leaves on the bottm are paler, not yellow yet but just paler. All on top are fine.
Appreciate any other comments!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57048076@N06/7322890168/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57048076@N06/7322890436/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/57048076@N06/7322890900/in/photostream
Not sure if I am just being impatient then
Yes it just impatience. I wasn't kidding above when I said 6 weeks. Tomato plants run in approximately 6 week cycles give or take a week depending on variety and weather.
As the timeline link shows it is approximately 40-45 days from full size fruit to color break and then a few more days until ripened. If your fruit have been full sized - and who can really tell since you don't know the variety name - for about 3 weeks then you have approx. another 3 weeks to go.
However since your fruit are still quite dark green I think it will be a little longer than that.
Dave