16,949 Garden Web Discussions | Growing Tomatoes
Wind chill may be a factor here, even for plants in a hoop house. But since your unprotected plants didn't suffer damage on the night in question, I suspect the curling has a different cause, maybe even overheating during the day, or perhaps a disease. In any case, I'm with your father on this one. Let them be and see what happens. I don't think it would hurt at this stage to trim the damaged leaves. And keep an eye out for possible diseases. Good luck with them.
Keep in mind that hot air goes up, cold air goes down. The weather services measure temperature @ 2 m height (~ 6.5 feet), meaning that the temperature during the night will always be lower at the ground level (unless some extreme situations like soil absorbing a lot of heat during a sunny day then emanating it throughout the night). That's probably why you had frost even though temp was 36.
I've had a similar situation, but temperature went down to 30 (probably slightly less @ ground level, but only for an hour or two)! The weather guy missed completely, and i found 13 wilted plants next morning (whole plant, along with the growing tip). They were planted quite deep, so i presumed the roots didn't freeze. I just left them in the ground, without pruning, and in 2-3 weeks time they actually recovered even though they looked completely dead. At the time i had another 50 that have only had their foliage slightly damaged, so i thought i'd give those 13 a go, and it worked. So i'm also with your father on this ;)
@ Dave
Good point and well explained, although i think that the length of the growing season is one of the major factors in play. For someone with short growing season, growing multiple steams can lead to plant setting a lot of fruit too late in the season (because of the energy being used on developing additional stems), without enough time for the majority of fruit to mature.
That been said, i now realize the OP bigpinks is from Ohio, so Dave has made a good point considering the climate there.
On the other hand, UK has a very different practice which i tend to follow here, with some changes to adapt to my climate - they train to a single stem and stop growth (pinch the top off) after 4-5 trusses.
I usually let mine grow to 6-8 trusses depending on variety, then pinch the top off, and when the final truss starts ripening, i pull the whole plant out and replace it with another that i've planted a bit later during the season, which is about to set fruit. It can be a bit tricky to get the timing right and it does involve more work, but last season i got better yield this way (i experimented on sungold plants, 1st was trained to two stems, and the other was treated like i said above, then pulled out and replaced). It is actually 2 plants vs 1 plant but those 2 occupy a single spot throughout the season so space-wise it does produce more. The two-stemed sungold had set a lot of flowers/fruit in early - mid september, and none of them made it since the season came to an abrupt ending in october.
Also i should point out that the total difference between those plants in the amount of fruit gained at the end of the season made sense to me, since at the time i had a lot of free time and didn't mind the extra work involved. It doesn't necessarily mean it is the way to go.
Cheers,
Djole
although i think that the length of the growing season is one of the major factors in play
I agree. And thus my original post's question and point.
There are so many variables involved in this "comparison" that it is anecdotal info only. No conclusions of any kind can be drawn.
It is 'happenstance', what has happened at this particular time to these 2 plants in these 2 containers in this particular grower's drive, in his zone given his particular weather that past couple of weeks, etc. etc. etc.
Interesting to observe but no valid methodology conclusions result.
Dave
It is strictly your choice. It is not required for any reason unless perhaps someone is trying to grow a giant for a competition and even then the potential for gain in size is primarily variety-related.
IME with the variety you usually only see such clusters with the first sets only so why not do it on a couple of clusters and leave the others and see which you prefer to do. Just keep in mind that it is determinate variety so you will be sacrificing some production.
Dave
Thanks everyone the tomatoes are starting to blossom and the ground is staying moist a lot longer with the grass clippings I put down. This is the first year of a garden in this soil so it might take a season or two, to get it in the right state for growing vegies.
You may get pretty good results since your garden has
never been a garden. I got good results the first year
I was in this house. I think since nothing much grew
there, there was a lot of nutrients available.
But the stuff was hard to dig and would get hard as a rock
when dry. I used lots of Kellog's AMEND in the garden to
loosten things up so digging was not such hard work.
I used to have to stand on the spading fork to get it though
the dirt at first. Now I can push the fork in with arm
pressure only!
Actual dirt should never be used in containers (drainage problems). [I'm not exactly a newbie gardener, but I learned that on this forum.]
When the word "soil" is used on a label, that bag usually contains dirt.
But "potting soil" on a label is ambiguous. Is it for containers ... or is it dirt for the garden? Hopefully somewhere on the bag there will be a list of contents.
Sometimes on this forum we use "soil" to refer to a non-dirt mix which can be used in a container. This confuses people.
I'm also in NYS, but usually a zone 5, and I use the same plant out dates that you suggested.
If it were me I wouldn't start hardening off seedlings with just two sets of leaves, and I don't count how many leaves, rather, how tall the seedlings are before I start hardening them off.
I want to set out seedlings that are about 6-9 inches tall and so start hardening them off at about that height and it takes me a full week to harden them off properly depending on the weather.
Have I ever set out plants with only two sets of leaves? Yes, I have, but only when there were special circumstances that dictated that I HAD to do that. Sigh.
Hope that helps.
Carolyn
I'm not disagreeing with the above but I don't think it has anything to do with the number of leaves. That is a secondary issue. The primary issues are the size/health of the plant and the weather 8-10 days prior to plant out date.
Depending on the variety and how the plants are grown one could easily have a 6-10" plant with only 2 sets of true leaves just as one could have a 4" plant with 3 sets.
Weather permitting your seedlings, IF they are at least 6" tall and healthy, should be ready to harden-off with care over the next week to 10 days and then go to the garden.
Dave
Wow. Very interesting.
I was wondering exactly what "phenoxy herbicides" are, and whether they're more likely to be used by farmers than lawn-care people or homeowners. But then I looked it up.
Wikipedia's definition: "A phenoxy herbicide is any member of a family of chemicals related to the growth hormone indoleacetic acid (IAA). When sprayed on broad-leaf plants they induce rapid, uncontrolled growth, eventually killing them. When sprayed on crops such as wheat or corn, it selectively kills just the broad-leaf plants in a field, the weeds, leaving the crops relatively unaffected."
2,4-D is the one we've heard of, plus a bunch of others. [Most of the formatting below came through when I copied it, though not all. Everything after the first bold heading was indented, so all are listed under "phenoxy herbicides." Many of the names should be indented to various degrees.]
No, you don't have to read through the whole list.
phenoxy herbicides
bromofenoxim
clomeprop
2,4-DEB
2,4-DEP
difenopenten
disul
erbon
etnipromid
fenteracol
trifopsime
* phenoxyacetic herbicides
clacyfos
4-CPA
2,4-D
3,4-DA
MCPA
MCPA-thioethyl
2,4,5-T
* phenoxybutyric herbicides
4-CPB
2,4-DB
3,4-DB
MCPB
2,4,5-TB
* phenoxypropionic herbicides
cloprop
4-CPP
dichlorprop
dichlorprop-P
3,4-DP
fenoprop
mecoprop
mecoprop-P
- aryloxyphenoxypropionic herbicides
chlorazifop
clodinafop
clofop
cyhalofop
diclofop
fenoxaprop
fenoxaprop-P
fenthiaprop
fluazifop
fluazifop-P
haloxyfop
haloxyfop-P
isoxapyrifop
kuicaoxi
metamifop
propaquizafop
quizalofop
quizalofop-P
trifop
The list is from this site (with interesting links at the bottom of the page, if you need to look up herbicide names):
http://www.alanwood.net/pesticides/class_herbicides.html
Now mind you, I am not an agricultural chemist. So I cannot say whether 2,4-DEP should be in two different categories (which it is). [I was looking for glyphosate, which is listed in the organophosphorus category: i.e. not with the ones I copied to this page.]
I had a neighbor whose lawn service (and he did it too) sprayed 2-4 D every year after I put my toms out. I would run get the hose and immediately wash them off and that keep it at bay...but only when I saw it happening, if I didn't I'd get the gnarly toms, most of the time I had to pull them....I also planted a row of something tall like zinnias that acted as a buffer zone, zinnia didn't care whether there was drift or not. Easiest was to move my plants to inner part of my yard so my tree and shrub line between the properties caught the drift...lost 5 redbud trees to drift. Finally got mad, called the lawn service company...told them the problem, and stop spraying my stuff or else....services insurance paid for my trees and hasn't come back to spray...the property owner does do some spraying still but no issues with my toms as of today. I do glare at him or ask him what he is spraying each time I see him...must be getting the idea I am not happy. No one has the right to spray on others property or cause drift damage to your property. Key is to catch them in the act and find out what is sprayed and when...they have insurance to pay for damage.
Aha!!! SneakyP, you bring up a good question...one that I've been grappling with. I think what I will end up doing is allowing the plants to get as high as the house (just above the edge of the photo), which has a flat roof. I will rig a support system, probably of twine, that attaches to the roof ridge and ties off at the bottom, probably every 12-18". Anything above that will be topped off...I think. I've never had this problem before, so I'll have to keep ya posted. LOL.
Cdon,
I always say people kill their plants with kindness more often than neglect. So the same hold true for peppers as tomatoes.
Angela.t,
When the peppers actually set fruit, excess watering makes for less hot peppers. Just as too much water with tomatoes can make for less tasty fruit, and cracked fruit too. Of course when torrential rains come, there's nothing you can do.
Remy
This link works:
Rather than use a moisture meter, dig down a bit and test the soil moisture by hand.
Letting it completely dry between watering
Maybe "completely" isn't a good idea. Of course your definition of "completely" and mine may not be the same.
You don't indicate where you live or even your gardening zone. We need that info.
Depending on that info I see several possible problems.
(1) poor, inconsistent watering methods leading to heavy stress, shallow rooting, root rot, and possibly poorly draining soil (no such thing as "organic soil" so what are we talking about?). How much and what type of compost? Any possibility of weed killer contamination in it?
Consistency in soil moisture levels is the goal, not one extreme to another. Consistent low moisture levels. And moisture meters are notorious for being inaccurate. Use your hands. Tunnel down to the 6" level where the root are and feel the soil
(2) way too much soaker hose in place for such small beds contributing to watering issues.
3) the wood chip mulch - never recommended for vegetable beds - binds up nitrogen and attracts pests especially slugs and root maggots.
4) all the Neem oil spraying. It causes its own issues with plants when not used and applied properly. Use when needed is one thing. Regular use when it may not even be needed is something else entirely. Application times, methods, and amounts are critical.
Sorry but IMO you are going to have to make some major changes in methods to save those plants.
Dave
Update: the tomatoes are transplanted into the garden and seem to be doing well. Once I got them into the little pots they doubled in size. I used the garden soil as an intermediary to the dirt in my garden. I was afraid that a potting mix might interfere with the plants adapting to the garden. I have fertilized after planting the tomatoes and am pleased with how they are responding to being in the garden. Now if all goes well I hope they will finish catching up with the plants I bought :) either way they might just be a bit behind which is fine too :) soong as I get my tomatoes I am happy lol
I used the garden soil as an intermediary to the dirt in my garden. I was afraid that a potting mix might interfere with the plants adapting to the garden.
There are several really good reasons for why what you did is NOT a good idea. Damp-off, root rot, compaction, stunting, pests, transplant shock, etc. You were lucky they survived this time. Not an approach to be recommended to others.
Dave
dickiefickle , I wanted to mimic Earthbox instructions as well as receiving advice from those on the tomato forums like Dave and Raybo that the lime helps to control ph and blossom end rot while supplying necessary nutrients . The model I used for the containers I found on globalbuckets.com -- thusfar , the plants are doing great . I believe that the bottom watering method makes a big difference .
I've grown New Big Dwarf several times, and it is usually slow to set fruit. But once it starts it should give you a good amount of wonderful tomatoes. I think NBD is a great variety, especially if space is an issue. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.
Lew
It was asked "did you mean too say dowel as in wooden dowel.not trowel?"
Nope. I meant trowel. Stick it into the soil tilt it a bit so that you can look at the soil in order to determine if it's wet, moist, or dry.
I find that container-grown tomatoes have more BER than the ground-grown relatives because
- the root system is restricted;
- heat builds up in containers and thus limits root function;
- and containers, depending upon their size, can dry rapidly on a summer day.
BER is a water-transport issue wherever the tomato is planted.
Quote "That type of leaf roll is usually caused by slightly high nitrogen in the soil reacting to cool nights and moderate days the nitro in the leaves does this, better results will be obtained when day and night temps are more evenly matched and it will go away."
.
@mickyfinn6777, I sure hope that's what it is, I had thought the plants were healthy because they had lots of tomatoes. I have checked all the fruit and I don't see any others with BER (or any other issues). Central Texas just had a cool front and a week of rain roll through here. temps were lower 60's to upper 70's. We are now back to normal: dry with upper 60's to upper 80's.
The Husky cherry tomatoes are really starting to produce lots of sweet and tasty cherries. I had two black princes just starting to turn color, sadly, my dog was impatient and did a snatch and run on one of them. My fault for not closing the gate behind me.
Thanks again Dave.
I checked the link you provided and they are brown mar orated stink bugs! I'm just glad I found them before they all hatched and created real damage. I will have to be really vigilant and check all my toms everyday. At least they are pretty big and easy to see!
So what is in your pic is actually instars - hatched eggs? We are seeing the black bugs not black eggs? Sorry you hadn't mentioned they had hatched and I read it as a pic of the eggs instead.
Dave