16,949 Garden Web Discussions | Growing Tomatoes
I seriously doubt that it will have any effect since the timing of fruit set is determined by other factors (see the FAQ here on Blossom Drop) but it won't hurt anything as long as you don't overdo it. Excessive phosphorus in the soil and the subsequent run-off contamination is a serious problem in many parts of the country
Dave
Unless you're growing in very sandy soil, the odds of you being low in P or K is not very likely so adding a bunch of P&K-only fertilizer is just going to go to waste, IMO.
That type of fertilizer is sometimes called bloom booster, or something similar. Odds are it's a complete wash. It may create better or slightly bigger blooms, but it also might do nothing if your soil wasn't already deficient in those nutrients - but it almost certainly won't get you earlier fruit. If you want earlier fruit, you need an earlier variety of tomato - or you need to plant out early and protect in low tunnels or the like.
Basically, with ideal conditions (good weather, ample light, etc.) fruit ripens in a set amount of time, it can take longer if things stray from the ideal, but you can't really speed it up.
Could be mice. Usually with fruitworms you will have some pitting but far more fruit with just holes and as you might expect once they are burrowed inside the fruit spray won't get to them. Hornworms are more evasive and easily camoflaged but you should notice the foliage missing on parts of this plant. The location of the fruit might be more helpful.
I have a few tomatoes ripening in my high tunnels and the other day I noticed a chipmunk in the one corner. Last night I had a dream that each ripe tomato had a bite out of it. In my vivid dream the bottoms were all knarley and oozing. Today I picked the ripe tomatoes, unaffected and ate them but I share your pain. I would not hesitate to get to the bottom of the problem if I were you.
The documented record as to waking up old seeds was 50 year old seeds that were stored inside in a file cabinet at the Cheyenne, WY, precursor to a USDA station and when the tomato seeds from there were moved to Ames, IA, to the new station germination was done.
I've worked with old seeds but not that old and my best is waking up 22 yo seeds of the tomato variety September Dawn.
You've got one heck of a lot of seeds there at 2 oz, so lots of seeds to work with, BUT, being stored like that who knows.
First, you don't say where you are in a geographic sense and that refers to whether or not the seeds have been frozen in the garage.
If it were me I'd start with a couple of hundred seeds and soak them in water to which you've added some blue stuff, aka Peters or Miracle Grow, or several drops of undiluted fish or seaweed stuff if you are organic in what you do.
Stir the seeds from time to time to get them to sink since old seeds are very dehydrated. The added blue stuff or fish, etc, is b/c they have a high concentration of nitrate ion and that's known to play a part in seed germination although my contacting a couple of tomato seed physiologists brought no answers where the nitrate ion acted although they agreed that it's known to help.
After a couple of days in the soak sow the seeds in a good soilless mix, loosely cover the seed pan with a baggie or similar, but don't use any domes, and when they need to be watered use water to which blue stuff or the fish, etc. has been added.
And then wait. It may take several months so I don't know if that matters in terms of getting anything to plant out this summer and getting maturation b'c again, I don't know where you live.
In the past I've used giberellic acid and potassium nitrate in various concentrations, microwave, cold tea and warm tea, green or black on the tea, as well as a peroxide ( H2O2 treatment, and the best I've found in my experience is what I mentioned above.
Back when it was still possible for non-researchers to request seeds from the USDA Craig LeHoullier and I got lots of seed sent that was low to no germinating so we had lots of seed to play with.
One I remember well was the variety Magnus, which was on the cover of the 1900 Livingston catalog, Craig couldn't get anything up and I got one plant and all seeds out there now for this variety came from that one plant, but not before an amusing story about trying to get fruits from it.
So why not try to wake them up, knowing that the documented record is 50 yo seed and also if you're able to plant anything out for THIS season and get lucky and get something.
Other than that I'd play with the seeds starting in maybe Nov or Dec, again, depending on where you live and grow tomatoes.
Carolyn
Hey hey, sorry for the delayed response - finals week. :)
I'm in Redding, CA. Stupidly hot summers, more mild winters. My family's in the estate liquidations business (and the flea market, antique show, etc., trade that comes to entail), so I've honestly got no idea where these seeds have been, other than the last 4 or 5 years. Most likely, they were grown and stored somewhere between the San Francisco area, and Redding.
I'm using Peters Hydrosol (5-11-26) for some hydroponic lettuce cultivation, all NO3 - How much should I add to the water? EC/pH?
Several months? hah, this should be fun. So, I should cover them, but not use humidity domes? What kind of humidity level should I be aiming for?
Wow, that's one hell of a story. That must have been an awesome experience, rejuvenating a set of long lost genetics, releasing it back into the world.
Thanks a bunch for the reply, hopefully something'll pop up. :) Maybe getting some seedlings popping up in August or September wouldn't be such a bad thing, I've wanted to try to grow a tom hydroponically for a while.
I started writing this reply yesterday, but hadn't posted it:
I'm looking through "Revolutionary Genes in the Genus Lycopersicon." It dates from 1993, but I'm learning about the history of tomato breeding for commercial use.
"The determinate growth characteristic or self-pruning controlled by a single recessive gene (sp) is a spontaneous mutation which occurred in Florida in 1914.... Before the discovery of this mutant, processing tomato varieties had indeterminate growth habit. Thus, they were grown on wide spacing with less fertilizer resulting in low yield per hectare. The mutant gene was successfully transferred to Sta. [i.e. Santa] Clara Canner, an indeterminate processing variety. Determinate progenies from the cross of the determinate and indeterminate types resulted in the predominant tomato processing varieties used in California from the 1940's to the 1960's...."
Of course, I can only shudder at the mention of some of the genes he hoped would be included in commercial varieties in the future. That future is now!
http://www.cabi.org/GARA/FullTextPDF/2009/20093019421.pdf
- - - - -
I had done the search on Startpage (which supposedly offers a Google search without the privacy concerns). I think I searched ruben villareal tomato. [In any case, I get the same result whether I use tomato or tomatoes.]
I seem to get more links to articles (or at least mentions of articles and research -- I haven't clicked on many yet) and far fewer booksellers than Carolyn's Google search with the identical terms.
http://www.startpage.com
Unfortunately, they won't let me link to an actual search.
Too much to do at the moment to spend more time comparing search engines. But it's intriguing.
Oh, and by the way: Thanks, nordfyr!
My understanding is that everyone's google is different and tends to predict results based on your surfing habits. I could be completely wrong about this....
My hypothesis is that Ruben L. Villareal developed a few heat resistant varieties (Divisoria-2 and VC-11) based upon his donation of those varieties to GRIN and also his frequent citation of those varieties in his writings and the little biographical information I have been able to glean about him. Makes sense; people seem to be biased towards their own works.
Your bed is lovely! I'm jealous. Mine is still in progress, It was designed to combat both climate and critters, and this is its test season.
Taking a term from Eliot Coleman, the 4 season gardening man, I call it my 'appliance' which was his catch all term for his various season extending devices. This is butted up against the south side of the house, in the hopes of getting another month of harvest in the autumn, and a jump on planting int the spring. I'm very happy, so far.
the Koralik is very prolific, determinate?, but mine grows like an indeterminate, in multiple vines 8 feet tall and producers until freeze. The flavor is unique and full, it is not sweet. It is a very tolerant plant, suited well for Oklahoma. Worth growing to see if you like the flavor.
I also had the same experience last summer as the gardener in Oklahoma, only I'm near Fargo, North Dakota. Despite our very short growing season, I found this "compact" tomato, which supposedly doesn't require staking or caging to be the Godzilla of the cherry tomato world. Using the square foot gardening method (pinching out the side shoots), my single Koralik plant grew rapidly up the 6-foot support and then traveled the entire length of the bed--another 8 feet! The vines produced right up until frost and were loaded down with a ridiculous number of massive clusters of the best tasting cherry tomatoes I've ever eaten. This was easily the most impressive tomato I've ever grown. However none of the descriptions found online for Koralik match the tomato I grew. So is there some other Koralik? I got mine from Lazy Ox Farm.
While many of us share the same growing conditions you have in your location, I should add that if you want info specific to Texas only then you may want to also post over on the Texas Gardening forum here at GW.
Dave
PS: thanks soonergrandmom. Glad it wasn't just me who didn't get it. :)
I apologize for my remarks if they sounded snarky. I am used to sports message boards where folks jump you at the first chance they get.
That said, I also should have been more clear in my original post as to my goals and objectives. I currently have a tremendous set of tomatoes but will be moving to EarthBoxes next year due to family member's success with them. I currently have Black Krim, Homestead, Better Bush, Big Rainbow, Cherokee Purple, Husky Cherry Red and Costoluto Genovese. Next year I'll be trying a separate group and, since I am coming into a sum of money in the next few weeks, I will be buying all my EarthBoxes, seeds, etc and storing until I start my seedlings in November. They'll go from there to my grandmother's greenhouse for about six weeks before going into the earthboxes outside.
Well you definitely have a good case of 'tomato leaf roll' going on and that indicates severely stressed plants. You can Google that term for more details on it.
The problem is identifying what all is causing the stress and that will be the usual suppositions you'll have to check out: rootbound plants in such small containers, insufficient fertilizer since regular weekly feeding is required for container plants, over watering or inconsistent watering (periods of dry followed by periods of soaked etc.), poor draining mix in container though both of those should be fine unless you used MG Moisture Control Mix, the aggressive use of the soap spray which causes its own issues, weather/storms, etc.
The when it comes to tomato leaf roll the odds favor excessive and/or inconsistent soil moisture levels as the primary cause.
I would suggest removing all of the damaged foliage ASAP and doing a bit - just a bit - of constructive pruning to reduce the size of the plants and its demands, give it a good feeding of a diluted-to-1/2 strength liquid fertilizer and continue to monitor them for the quality of new growth.
If they continue to decline or if they begin wilting regularly then they are rootbound and will not survive. 5 gallon buckets are the MINIMUM recommended size of container and are very problematic unless growing dwarf varieties.
Hope this helps.
Dave
Dave,
Thanks for the input. Good to know I don't have to deal with some sort of horrible viral/fungal issue. I will follow your advice and trim the plants of the worst of the foliage.
I'd considered over/under watering for a bit, but repeated examination of the soil in both containers showed the medium was moist (not sopping wet).
Is there a liquid fertilizer that you would recommend? I do have ample supply of worm tea that I collect from my vermicomposting bin. Would worm tea work? And should I water from the top surface, or pour the water into the reservoir so it is drawn into the medium from below?
This is my first attempt at using these types of buckets for Solar Fire. Never knew the plants required such large volume for the roots!
In "theory", the water should wick from the reservoir as needed (much like an earthbox). I noticed that some roots have made it into the reservoir. Should I allow the reservoir to go entirely dry before refilling? Has anyone had the same problem using 'moisture control' potting soil?
Has anyone had the same problem using 'moisture control' potting soil?
Yes, many have reported on problems with it. It keeps the plants too wet unless used in exceptionally large containers (like bigger than 35 gallons). And Raybo has posted about problems with it here in his 31 gallon Earthtainer set-ups.
It is one of those things that sounds good in theory but not so good in practice sometimes.
If that is what you used then you'll have to reduce/monitor the watering much more closely.
Some have started incorporating perforated landscape fabric into the bottoms of their SWC just so the roots can't get directly to the water. I haven't tried it personally since I haven't had any problem with it in my Earthboxes but then I use a timed auto-drip system on mine so the water chamber doesn't sit full of water all the time.
Dave
Tomatoes are extremely resilient, you can even graft a tomato type onto a disease resistant root stock like they do with fruit trees. just bandage it and leave it be for a few days, it will heal.
Here is a link that might be useful: My corner of the world
I am having a similar "issue" allthough it's not much of an issue because I planted about 100 more seedlings than I can use. I am giving the rest away to friends and our community gardens. BUT...
All were started in the same flat, 2 of 7 rows did terrible in the flats, while 5 of 7 looked exactly how I wanted them to look. I potted up into the solo cups with pro-mix, scotts potting mix and Miracle grow potting mix all mixed together in a large tote.
They were in my south and west facing sunroom getting good light with a rotation under my 4 T8 bulb setup. Each day I would put about 30 under the lights and rotate them every day. It was the best I could do for this year.
I started putting them out about 2 weeks ago and the wether has been favorable, other than more rain than I would like. But, they spruce up quickly after each rain and have even made it through a couple good dounpours. They have also made it through 2 days in a row of 75-80 temps and not a cloud in the sky full sun.
My biggest few plants have nice thick stems, 3 sets of true leaves and are about 4-5 inches taller than the top of the solo cup which was filled about 3/4 of the way. Then the majority are about 2-3 inches over the top with thier second full set of true leaves.
Then about 10 are 0-1 inch above the top of the cup with only one set of true leaves. The suprising thing for me is that my daughter started some of my marglobe seed about a month ago, a full month after I started my flats, she bought one of those peat pellet starter domes. All of her plants are as tall and have better looking canopy than all but the best of my other plants. They never went under the shop lights though, only the first 2 weeks in the sunroom (including the first 5 days of germination) and then also spent the past 2 weeks in the elements.
I am not too worried about any of them though, save maybe the 10 that are really small. I just recently planted out 18 Romanesco broccoli plants which also had varying degrees of size and healthy look about them. They have been in the ground about 3 days and they all look almost identical now, they have all double to tripled in size since I put them in. The smaller ones tripling to catch up to the larger ones which may have doubled.
Now if I hade them in the ground and they had not moved in some time, I would in fact be a little worried. 3 weeks is certainly too long for a healthy tomato plant to not grow at all. I would personally dig one up carefully, find the root mass and massage it loose, then I would re-plant just to be sure it isn't rootbound. Also what is your soil like? Are you planting into clay? I don't have clay but have read where if you dig a planting hole and amend just the hole, the clay can be so much more dense that the roots could just swirl awound inside the planting hole taking the path of least resistance, essentially giving you a potted plant.
You can have, what I call, a bad spot/s in the soil for reason/s you will never know or are worth fussing with.
I have had plants do that and I either use a shovel to dig out the plant with a "root ball".
Then I put new bagged soil apprx. a foot deep and a foot around and put the tomato back in the ground with a foliar feed that has root boost in it.
I have only had one plant in the past ten years that was hell bent on dying.
No problems! Just let the plant do its thing. You've lost some time, but the plant will be fine -- remember that the root system was able to support the larger, before-accident size of the plant: that large root system will have no difficulty supporting quick growth on the now-smaller plant.
Once you find the broken stem, it would be a good idea to remove any fruit and flowers, as the new plant needs to devote all its energy to growing a root system. And you might want to shade it from mid-day sun for a few days.
Nutrient deficiency. Primarily magnesium and secondarily phosphorus. If it has been cool and damp that would explain the uptake problems and it should resolve as the plant matures and the weather stabilizes.
However IF you know that a) your soil pH is out of whack or that you soil is P deficient then a good feeding will help and b) a root drench watering of 1 T epsom salts in 1 gallon of water will resolve the magnesium deficiency and you should see a quick recovery.
I see this in my early spring plants frequently and have to routinely add epsom salts to my plants because my native soil pH is so alkaline that nutrient uptake, especially Mg, is problematic.
Dave
@ajsmama & Dave
Thank you very much for the info provided. As for the lab tests - we did the macro nutrient analysis for the 2nd site (the one with 100 tomatoes) - pH 6,52 (KCl), N, P, K were all deficient (border values between deficient and mediocre), and so was the organic matter in the soil (2,58%), so we used Plantella Organik in large dose (5-3-2 pelleted dry manure, sterilized then enriched with useful soil bacteria and micro nutrients). Some were fed after planting since the results were late, and some were fed via transplantation hole. In the following weeks we will add Memon Siforga (5-3-8, same as above) for the additional K. Anyways this site was mucky but not completely flooded because it is mildly sloped, and there is less damage here then on the other site. The distribution amongst those 100 was quite random, some were affected more, some less, and some not at all.
As for the 1st site (the one with 15 tomatoes), i didn't do lab tests, i grew tomatoes there last year with great success. Soil doesn't drain too well but since we seldom have this much precipitation it doesn't usually pose a problem. This time it rained literally 24 hours a day for 4 days. On the 3rd day, a pond (yes, a pond) formed over a lane between tomato rows (the lane is a bit lower than tomatoes).
This weather is very unusual for May here, however the whole "spring" was weird, that's pretty much the reason why i got caught so pants-down. Anyways, the following 3 days ought to be dry, with 44 f low tonight, going up to 82 f high on sunday.
Thanks again for diagnosing this, i've dealt with some of the diseases before but this was completely new to me (can't remember a crappier spring weather). You guys/gals rock ;). Wish i could take you out for a beer or coffee or something :)
Cheers,
Djole