16,949 Garden Web Discussions | Growing Tomatoes

Good reviews.

So if Moravsky Div is similar to Stupice (fruit wise ) but it is semi-det , I might grow it in place of Stupice, as I am dropping it. I am switching to dets and semi-dets, cause they require less space and are better manageable.

One more thing: I grew both Stupice and Bloody Butcher. To me their fruits are almost identical in size and shape (lobed instead of round).

One more thing: I grew both Stupice and Bloody Butcher. To me their fruits are almost identical in size and shape (lobed instead of round).

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If both were lobed and not round you either had the wrong seeds or there was some kind of weather effect although I can't tell you what since I've grown both many times and always round,

At the bottom of this post is a link for Stupice showing the round fruits and here's one for Bloody Butcher and if you click on where it says more pictures you can see more round fruits.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Bloody_Butcher

All four Stupices bred in the now Czech Republic and Bloody Butcher bred by Sahin Seeds in the Netherlands, and I'm not sure why Tania made mention of Tom Wagner, well I do, but he had nothing to do with BB,

Carolyn

Here is a link that might be useful: Stupices ( plural)

PREVENTION IS KEY...MUST START EARLY...ONE WAY IS TREAT SOIL WITH NEEM OIL SPRAY SEVERAL WEEKS BEFORE PLANTING....OR NEEM MEAL...LAY DOWN SOAKER HOSE DOWN ROW AND COVER WITH BLACK PLASTIC TO WARM SOIL, AFTER PLANTING, AND TEMP STARTS RISING, COVER PLASTIC WITH STRAW OR LEAVES TO KEEP SOIL COOL...FARMERS PREFER THIS METHOD I UNDERSTAND...NO NEEM NEEDED WHEN USING PLASTIC...THE INDIAN

On the diseas contol:
I have come to the understanding that PREVENTION is the key. Having said that I believe in systematic, scheduled spraying with your fungicide , from the time you plant. I personally use both Daconil (synthetic) and Neem Oil (organic).
I will go an step forward and recommend the following :

== spraying the bed(s) ahead of planting.
== mulching , with plastic or things like pine bark which in non splashing and aerating.
== Start removing lower leaves from early on, to a height of about a foot, or more from the ground. This will serve 2 purposes: One: to prevent splash and two: provide air flow.
==keep the leaves dry, as much as possible. We cannot stop the rain but we can water such a way that leaves won't get wet. Especially when you prune the lower leaves.
== PRUNING: One of its benefit in disease control and prevention is that it can aide air flow. Most fungi/mold need a wet and stagnant environment to thrive and multiply. This fact is more applicable where you get a lot of rain. I know this because it is the case in the PNW, where I am gardening. Even a lot of pests prefer moist/wet environment.
==Adequate spacing the plants can also help. But those of us who cannot afford it due to scarcity of real estate, pruning is an alternative.
== Support your plants: Caging, staking, weaving stringing are common methods. In my mind sprawling is an invitation to a lot of soil and air borne diseases due to stagnation. Unless you garden in places like SoCal that rarely rains during the summer months.

On the fertilizing:
there is a new practice about the NPK ratios that I subscribe too. It says that most plants need them at 3-1-2 ratio. For example MG blue water soluble is a good one with 24-8-16 . It is also less expensive, pound per pond than any fertilizer that I know off. If you are organic, try to find something close to 3-1-2 ratio

Let it be know, finally, that the above is solely my opinion. And I am not claiming anything about its accuracy, even though I practice it myself.

This post was edited by seysonn on Sun, Oct 19, 14 at 17:22

Both early blight and tomato wilt ARE soil borne. Late blight is one of the rare fungal pathogens that does not reside in the soil - it is usually transmitted by infected plant material or live spores can blow in with wind and rain storms. However, since the widespread severity in the outbreaks of late blight in home gardens since the late 90's, it has been determined that new strains of the late blight fungus may have spread to many areas. Some of these strains may interact and form a type of resistant spore that can survive for long periods in soil.

The persistence of these pathogens in the soil is the reasoning behind the recommendation for crop rotation. The soil can be reused but I'd caution against using it for anything in the Solanaceae family.

elc, my answer to your question in your post is at the bottom of this post but please do read what I've posted first.

Blight is a general word that to most folks means a sick tomato or potato plant/

There are the fungal foliage diseases of Early Blight ( Alternaria solani) and Septoria LEAF Spot ,, and the two bacterial ones Bacterial Speck and Bacterial Spot, and NONE of them are soil borne diseases/

The spores of the first two and bacteria from the second two may fall to the soil from infected plants and the next year be splashed back onto the lower foliage after heavy rains or irrigation and that's called splashback reinfection.

There are many other diseases that do cause wilts, the foliage diseases do not, and the most common wilt dieases of Fusarium and Verticllium are soilborne and Root Knot Nematodes in CA and the south where the gound does not freeze deeply and areas. I repeat, where the soil does not freeze deeply/

There are two major mating types of LB (Phytopthera infestans a systemic disease) now, before about 199o, as noted above, and before that there was just one.

This gets a bit complicated so I tried to find some links that would explain it best rather than my doing a lot of typing.

Both mating types A1 and A2 are now found in the US and are most predominant in the middle Atlantic states and especially the PNW/

When the two mating types meet they can form oospores that can overwinter whereas the LB most of us know cannot.

Oospores can give rise to recombinant strains or LB that have more tolerance to to the antifungals that commercial farmers use, the most important one being Ridomil, which is not available to home gardeners.

The best prevention for home gardeners is Daconil.

And now it's time to get some links going so I don't have to go through the life cycle and so much more.

The first link which is at the very bottom does a good job of explaining the situation in non-technical terms.

Here;s a second one from MI that is also non technical.

http://migarden.msu.edu/uploads/files/e1802.pdf

Elc, you mentioned both blight and wilt in your initial post. You said that it was new soil, so one has to assume it had NO foliage disease spores or bacteria in that new mix, and it wouldn't have had any soilborne wilt pathogens either,

So I have to assume that what your plants had were one or more of the fungal foliage pathogens that are spread via wind and embedded in rain droplets, or from irrigation.

Yes, I know CA and occasionally it does rain and yes the wind can blow in spores from other areas.LOL

If those foliage pathogens dropped onto your container soil then yes, they could be a problem next year , the same as if you were growing inground as to splashback reinfection, so what you can do is to remove maybe 4-6 inches of that possibly contaminated mix and top it off with new mix. Or if money is not a factor, dispose of the mix in the containers and replace with new.

If it were me I'd remove the several inches and top it off.

All NEW infections with the fungal and bacterial pathogens are acquired via wind, rain or irrigation as I mentioned above, as opposed to splashback reinfection.

Hope the above helps,

Carolyn

Here is a link that might be useful: LB mating types and more

I think what's being suggested is that the seeds you got in whatever swap you were a part of were mislabelled as Black Cherry and what you grew resembles Blush or Maglia Rose, both bred by Fred Hempel.

Not that you yourself had seeds for either one.

Carolyn

Yes, however it is quite possible that this is an experimental / early cross as Blush is just one of many versions in that breeding program. If you read the article I linked to, you will see that Blush and others bred by Fred Hempel are crosses including Black Cherry and Speckled Roman.

I would go with that since Black Cherry was on the envelope, as it is too coincidental that it was labeled Black Cherry and not have something to do with Hempel's program ... IMO it's may be the clue to feel more confident. It may have originally stated Black Cherry X (Speckled Roman?) or something like that.

Tom,
I am also growing one JBT, I purchase the plant from nursery.
I like the fruit color and consistency. It is a tasty brown tomato (NOT black ! ). However, it produced sparingly. Maybe about a dozen all season. Probably would've produced more had I planted in in ground instead of in the pot. But I did not have the space for it. It has 4 more fruits right now about the full size. I will have to pick and bring those in.
So, anyway, I will grow it again.

Set sonny this is my second year with JBT and it didn't produce well. It did give me a lot the first year. Both times I grew it in a twenty gallon container but different locations. I had some disease issues this year. But it's also not on my list for next year.

Hi Sharon,
Out of about 30 plants I had 4 in pots. But those were the ones I planted out not so early. They have done pretty well and are going at this moment.

I used my 5-1-1 potting mix, fortified with slow release fertilizer with Calcium and continued supplementing by water soluble fert at about 1/3 strength once a week.

About Bubble wrap:
I make cages ( about 10" dia) from rabbit fence wire ( 24" tall) and wrap it with bubble rap. THE BIGGER TH BUBBLES, THE BETTER.
It works similar to WOW , in the way that it work like a green house (solar heat trap ), protects from wind chill effect (air bubbles work as insulator), reduce cooling rate at night. (especially if you cover the top). It is easy to make and inexpensive and versatile.

WOW is claimed to store heat in the water, in the pockets and supposedly release it at night. But as a mechanical engineer, specialized in heat/mass transfer I do not think that is significant. To me it is the greenhouse effect, heating the soil. insulating and wind protection features that are useful. If any heat was stored in the water, most of it will be lost from the outer exposure in a very short time. In a way, the water pockets prevent most of solar heat reaching the soil.!! I rather heat the soil than water. I am not saying that it is useless but I believe its benefits have been over blown. JMO.

Hi seysonn, my concern with using WOW's was filling it with water and not collapsing in on the plant. I'm thinking that the bubble wrap could work with the grow bags. I'm thinking of starting more mid-May because anything earlier here could be way too risky. It seems like an easy and viable option to get a bit of a head start, assuming my transplants are hardened off and sturdy. Something to think about.

Hi Seysonn!
You only need 10 varieties of 50 seeds each. But if you can only send 5 varieties of 2 packs each, that is fine, and I will send you 10 packs back. I know you only wanted 5 back, but I want to be fair to you. :)
Most of us are "backyard" gardeners, but we have an obsession with collecting varieties to try out. I usually have about 6 varieties that I love to grow each year, then add in about 20 more untried. Then there are usually one or two that I really liked for my growing area, and I add them to the must-grow list, and so on each year, with some dropping out along the way for better replacements. I'm only telling you this because I don't want you thinking we are big farmers swapping lol. I have about 1500 or so varieties, and I grow anywhere from 27 to 100 plants each year, depending on where I can garden (I don't have enough sun in my yard, darn trees lol.)
In any case, I am thrilled to have you join us!
Andrea

Hi Asaylor, and thanks for your consideration.

I will read the rules and prepare and send 10 pack ( 2 packs of each 5 varieties).
Thanks

seysonn

I've grown Celebrity along with my other tomatoes for years and yours look nothing like Celebrity. But they sure are pretty!

Well, then, most likely is NOT a Celebrity.

Well...

The parents of Big Zac have not passed away. Big Zac F1 can be purchased at Totally Tomatoes. Check their online catalog. I believe the crosses are being made in Japan though I am not certain. Growers have been growing seeds from the original cross, F1 Big Zac, and are now out to F8 and F9. The new world record, 8.41 pounds was set by Dan MacCoy in Minnesota using some of these seeds. Minnie Zaccaria now has a new seed named ZacZilla which is a triple cross that has been given to the giant tomato growing community to see how they do with it this next year. Marv

seysonn, I have to agree that given a choice between Cherokee Purple and Big Zac with standard growing methods, CP will be more fun, more flavorful and more productive than my BZ experience with whatever I do here.

I'm not abandoning the BZ variety though since there is something cool about knowing what people have done with it. Just, not every season.

As for the "hybrid" situation I've previously expressed my opinion about the fine line between a cross and hybrid in the commercial seed business, and at this point it really doesn't seem to matter since the OPs are racking up the records. Though not a BZ groupie, the excitement can be fun and contagious of some of the other members who have had fun with it.

That said, I think Cherokee Purple has potential for giant tomatoes and maybe someone can send one to Marv (Thanks for reminding us that the missing "parent" who I call lovingly "Elvis" was allegedly resurrected from the beyond) who no doubt would show the world its first 5 pounder if he didn't want to grow them to eat. Both CP plants I started from seed in early August produced a very large "terminal" fused blossom as a premier into flowering. Terminal is in quotes because these are thick stems that sort of both grew up in a triple thick stem, so I don't know what the scientific word is for having a three lane hot wheels track going up in the main stem from the get go, with a remarkable fused blossom pit stop in the middle lane ;-) Twice for twice.

PC

After looking at my roots some more and thinking about it a bit longer I now realize that the plants that had only fibrous root were those made from cuttings from plants whose original stalks were eaten by wireworms, about 6 plants in all. Also I believe the number of lateral roots is related to the length of the taproot and how much damage was done during potting up. (Carolyn alluded to this.) Because of this, I plan on starting my plants in bigger containers next year so that I may not even have to pot up at all.

Here are my conclusions about root structure:
The taproot is the primary root of the tomato plant. All other roots are secondary roots except for the adventitious roots which form directly from the stem. The taproot may reach a depth of 23 inches in the first three weeks of plant growth in the garden and can go even deeper depending on soil conditions. Taproots immediately begin to branch and can give off as many as 10 lateral branches per inch. Repotting and transplanting a tomato plant damages the taproot and this results in the overall root beginning to take on a fibrous appearance due to the many small fine roots arising from the remaining tap root. Collectively these are referred to as the fibrous root system. The larger roots growing out laterally from the tap root, the lateral branches, are often referred to as feeder roots when growing laterally while those growing downward are sometimes referred to as water roots though they carry dissolved nutrients as well as water back to the plant.. These laterals grow out horizontally and then down and can reach 2 feet or more in length. The adventitious root system refers to those roots originating from buried stem. All roots are covered with root hairs which are microscopic extensions of the root and through which water and dissolved accompanying nutrients are absorbed.
Thoughts? Marv

"The job of the farmer is to take care of the roots as much as possible. The part above ground will then take care of itself."

he often said "there is a lot you can do for the roots but you can do very little for what is above ground."

quote from an old organic farmer who grew the biggest tomatoes I ever saw.

If this farmer ever met lubadub he would have said "You are the best"

Now that this thread is dusted off and brought up , I like to make few comment.

I have been enthusiastically in the game of planting EARLY varieties in 2014. I grew all three, MATINA, STUPICE, BLOODY BUTCHER among few other. Now that the season has come and gone , I can voice an opinion on them:

MATINA has been the winner of the 3 in my garden. (a) taste , (b)productivity and (c) size. A WINNER

STUPICE did very poorly. Not a consistent fruiting habit. Most fruits were like cherry tomatoes. Even those small tomatoes took relatively long to ripen. A LOOSER.

BLOODY BUTCHER was the first to produce ripe tomato but it fruited so sparingly. Although not as bad as Stupice, but not as good as Matina. So I wont grow it again.

So my next year's earlies will be: Matina and Siletz. YMMV

BTW: I also grew Early Treat, Silvery Fir Tree. I will NOT grow them again.

Hey seysonn, I am surprised about BB. I had recommended to you as an early variety. I didn't grow it this year but last year it was a work horse. I had tons of tomatoes from it. Oh well that's gardening. I was debating about Stupice for 2015 but I think I'm scratching off my list. Lots of varying reports about it and there's so many others out there.

I'm in zone 6/5 and still going. but I'm more interested in my winter crops. Always grow something all year.
I can keep my lettuce going till December.
I have been enjoying the sauce I made earlier in the year. Came out great.
Raspberries are producing like mad too. Still getting about 30 a day.It peaks at 80 a day, so it is down.
Check this out for growing all year

Here is a link that might be useful: Fruitnut's greenhouse

I admit that right now I don't miss my ragged, yellowed tomato plants. Everything looks good, feels good and boy have I ever learned not to plant different tomatoes in one giant deep tub-they crossed or whatever and some reliable favorites came out bitter and inedible. Others came out sweet and that's a huge no-no in my world !

When fermenting seeds, do not stir. It just delays the scum forming on top.

Gary

I saved seeds earlier in the year, so not saving anymore except a few late peppers. I use both oxiclean and fermenting. I usually use oxiclean when time is limited. Both methods work fine for me.
I still have many tomatoes to process. It's been a great year!

Yeah, I'm looking Florida-wards ... hope to be there before the end of the next growing season.

Linda thanks. I have this vision of the WOW collapsing in on my plants. I will take all this into consideration. Great info about artificial lights and cool temps. Thanks a million!
Sharon