100,000 Buckthorns to kill

Thought I'd post photo of our west slope naturalscape taken from upper deck. Strive to eradicate thistle, Creeping Charlie, garlic mustard, common mullein while spot spray to keep vetch, leafy spurge, milkweed, etc. confined vs. spreading into the fescue. Yes, this year we're allowing fescue to self-seed before mowing. (Buckthorn belt at base of the slope out of range. We've cut down and stump-treated females while leaving males standing to provide weed and wildlife barrier.)

Update to my post from June 6th: From a distance, it looks like my spraying efforts from this spring were very effective. However when you look up close, particularly in areas that were carpeted by buckthorn seedlings, many of the seedlings are still alive. They are not actively growing, but they don't look dead either. I'm thinking another mass spraying is going to be needed this fall.

Very definitely more spraying needed. It's the seeds waiting for the opportunity to germinate that cause so much grief with this species. I believe the seed bank can be viable for , oh, maybe 50 years or so??? That's why I gave the title of this post as I was expecting 100,000 new seedlings to eventually appear. I wonder if there is any data on this plant's seed life time. i think if I were younger I would be looking at 50 years of effort on one plot of land.

This post is timely in that yesterday spouse chainsawed overgrown thorny black honeylocust and female buckthorn tagged last fall that we did not get to. Cut BT at chest height and applied glyphosate, knowing we'd stump cut and treat again in autumn. Weed control requiring much less herbicide as fescue flourishing, loving recent rains. Since it's ALWAYS something now dealing with Japanese beetle outbreak in backyard. Anyone have experience using Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer? Soaked down offending grass two days ago but blades beetle-covered again. Perhaps takes time to be effective? Also can anyone identify these swaying-trunked volunteer trees growing like crazy in some places BT removed?

Does anyone know if the cut and glyphosate method works with seedlings, or should I just wait until fall and carpet bomb them with 2,4-D? Some of the woods is getting so thick that it is hard to walk. I'm still finding a few 1" type trees that I missed last year, and will be taking the lopper and buckthorn blaster to them over the summer.

On another front, the effort on wild parsnips seems to be working. I only found a few on Saturday in my 1/4 mile of ditch, but the neighbor across the street has just let his grow, and now there is almost nothing else there. Frustrating, because I'll have to deal with his seeds. My daughter just tangled with it in her own yard, and wound up at the doctor today with the burn blisters.

According to Minnetonka DNR, 2% glyphosate works for foliar spray of seedlings. I've been experiencing success using my 'standard Creeping Charlie mix': 1% Triclopyr-4 / 1% 2,4-D / 0.5% surfactant / Bayer Advanced All-in-One Lawn Weed & Crabgrass Killer concentrate diluted 0.4 cup to one gallon water. Mix allows me to be ready for most anything (except sedge of course) while safely allowing fescue growth.

I just rely on 2-4-d to treat anything with a broad leaf and doesn't leave a burn mark behind.

terrineff, I've seen those ditch trees many times in the past but I can't recall just what they are. One of the tree specialists on here should know., And, what do you have against sedge?

Nothing against native Pennsylvania sedge but rather invasive yellow nutsedge. Slope seeded with no-mow fescue literally choked out until I discovered Sedgehammer to kill its nasty rhizomes. Yes, had to reseed. Still a battle but significantly less present.

terrineff, the tree looks to be Box Elder (acer negundo), hard to say. Opposite leaves are typical of all members or the Maple family. The leaves in your picture are not fully developed, at close look the one maple leaf looks to actually be 3 leaves. That makes me say Box Elder, that and what I can see of the branches.

wait a week or two and give us a better picture.

To klunker: Thanks for your reply. Photo below from same species in different location. Tree is rapid growing and we definitely have box elder seedlings intermingled with BT seedlings. Better than BT though another 'junk' tree apparently.

New BT control method? Argh!

In a related matter notice round dead patch in foreground fescue caused by drift from glyphosate sprayer. I've been using atop clumps of reed canary grass, an extremely problematic invader this year. Has anyone found an applicator that would quickly apply glyphosate to individual blades to avoid collateral fescue kill?

Hi, Terrineff. As it turns out, just two days ago I picked one up. It is a foam dispenser from GreenShootsOnline. You mix glyphosate with water and a little bit of their foam additive, pump it up, and it lays a small blob of foam (with a blue dye indicator) right where you want it.

It seemed a little expensive, but I can say that it is very well made, and looks to be well worth the price as a good durable device. It holds about a quart of fluid. John, the owner and designer of the product, is located here in St. Paul, is a very nice guy, and really knows his stuff. He is fighting his own buckthorn battle at his lake place, and uses the foam dispenser along with the "frill" method that you have mentioned here, and also with cut and treat, laying a blob of foam around the cambium. Looks to be a good way to go with buckthorn. He has videos online doing these things.

https://www.greenshootsonline.com/collections/foam-herbicide-dispensers

I got the large version, and will be using it tonight to thin out the stiff goldenrod that took over my prairie grass planting in the back yard.

Another thing that I have used in the yard is a Weed Wand, from here: http://www.amleo.com/weed-wand-magic-applicator/p/WWA/ It is a cane with a valved sponge applicator on the tip. I've used it with glyphosate and dye to dab on some of the tougher ground hugging weeds in the yard. Currently experimenting with Charlie, but that stuff is tough. It leaves about a 1" diameter spot of glyphosate. This is similar to a Buckthorn Blaster or art marker, but with about a 3 ft cane which serves as a large reservoir. Also a good guy, with great customer service.

Both are different tools, and I'm glad that I have both.

Bill

Quick status update... after getting off of work this evening, I went through the prairie grass area in the back yard with the GreenShoots sprayer, and put a couple of blobs of glyphosate foam on every goldenrod that I could find. It worked like a dream, producing a rich lather that stuck to the leaves and stem. The blue dye is highly visible in the foam, so it was really easy to see what was done, and what needed to be. 32 ounces of foam goes a long way! I mixed 32 ounces, and might have gone through 12.

Then, I went through the mowed grass and hit the creeping charlie to test in that application. While I don't know if anything short of dynamite can knock off charlie, it was really easy to control where the blobs of glyphosate foam went.

One word of caution... it is fun to use, and easy to get carried away. I'd recommend walking into the bed of weeds. then walk out backwards, foaming behind you. Otherwise, you can paint yourself into a corner, having to walk through blobs of blue foam on the way out. Don't ask me how I know this! ;)

Bill, thanks, will order Greenshoots sprayers. Assume BT Blaster blue dye works as colorant. Own lifetime supply of Alligare Surface^ nonionic surfactant so will try in place of Blue Foaming Agent. On related note, do you think Weed Wand Magic Applicator would be great tool for killing low sprouting Oxeye daisies?

Check my July 3, 2017 post detailing mix I've found virtually 100% successful vs. Creeping Charlie this season. (Love your final tip!)

I'd think that the greenshoots foamer would work better on the daisies, but I don't have any here. Use the little leaves on salads, first. I'll give your mix a shot. Have to order some triclopyr for the buckthorn season, when I get the darned RV back from the shop. The weed wand needs to be pressed against the ground.

Bayer product added to the elixir is what makes the combination so potent against C.C. Dead, dead, dead wherever sprayed w/ no ill effect to grasses. Regarding daisies, first year here didn't realize Oxeyes are non-native invasive weeds and I ignored slope infestation. No doubt will be dealing with seed sprout forever.

Just a comment about the Reed Canary Grass: In my own controlled environment, I would burn off all the dead grass residue/detritus in early Spring where the RCG was present. Then, a few weeks later, only the bad grass would emerge from the bare ground and at about 6 inches in height, would nail with Roundup/glyphosate. This would turn out to be about 95% effective the first year.

Note:If you choose this method, do NOT let the fire get out of control. Don't ask.

Thanks Too Bill, I'm going to try the Greenshoots sprayer on small elm, mulberry, box elder and aspen seedlings in a grass area. I have been hitting these trees with spray of glyphosate but as typical I end up with small dead zones. This looks like a really good solution. Every time I take a walk out to inspect the flowers I'll take along the sprayer.

Also I'm going to go buckthorn hunting in my woods. fortunately I have very few buckthorn. But I may also hit some of the honeysuckle that is more common.

Thanks for the tips on the reed canary grass, Dandy-Line. I have a bunch of that and want to get rid of it to replant with a short prairie grass mix. I wonder about somehow mowing and raking it up, then burning the stubble with a torch. It would be awful to have one get out of control.

Yes-that sounds like a good plan. In my case, the area was too large to be able to manage it that way. But, the roundup is the cure all, and early enough in Spring to not affect the later emerging natives.

First report: GreenShoots foam pump vs buckthorn seedlings and saplings

Yesterday, I walked through the woods and foamed maybe a thousand or more seedlings and saplings. I used about a 50% mix of glyphosate and water, with about half of the recommended amount of blue foaming agent. I was able to selectively put a blob of foam on the seedlings and multiple blobs on the saplings, without any collateral damage. One nice thing about the foam blobs, is that if I did hot something by mistake, I was able to just pluck the mistakenly treated leaf, so that I am confident it did not damage the plant. On areas that were thick with seedlings, I pumped up the pressure higher and shot blobs of foam over the bunch of them. The blobs stuck to the leaves, and did not run off onto the other plants in the area.

GreenShoots made for me a longer than usual discharge tube so that I did not have to bend over to apply the foam. The tubing is high density polyethylene, and had a curl to it. I might try to slip a metal tube over it to stiffen it up a little, so that it can have more horizontal reach.

It will be a few weeks before I can report the effectiveness of the herbicide, but based on a buckthorn sapling that I found in my yard a few weeks ago and hit with the same mix with the Dawn foaming dish soap pump, I think they will turn brown.

A question for some of you pros... maybe wisconsitom... has anyone tried a mix of 2,4-D and glyphosate? From what I understand, they work in opposite ways - the 2,4-D stimulates uncontrolled growth, and the glyphosate stops the production of a protein required for growth. Maybe the plant dies of confusion. Or, maybe it is just me that is confused.

Yes, dedicated one sprayer exclusively to glyphosate + 2,4-D elixir. Use in areas where not currently anticipating desirable fescue migration such as slopes cleared for construction that fall outside required silt fence. Kill rate is excellent. Looking forward to attacking RCG with GreenShoots!

All of my buckthorn removal from last winter resulted in six large brush piles that i am going to be burning in place soon, along with a bunch of pines and spruces i removed and cut up the last couple months (all of which were choked out by the buckthorn). Question is, what should I do with all the ash? Would it be advantageous to spread it around the post-buckthorn bare ground (which will be planted with grass/wildflower seed next spring) or should I just dispose of it in the trash? Based on past experience I expect to have 3-500 pounds of ash (dry) when all is said and done.

There have to be a lot of nutrients in the ash, minerals that will be excellent fertilizer on your grounds.

A beefy thread indeed!

We own 3 1/2 acres of BT in Grant, MN. Also interested in eradicating.

Inviting comments on several non-chemical approaches:

• Mowing with Brush Mower - helpful? can it be effective on it's own?
• Hinge Cutting - will it kill the sapling or tree without chemicals?
• Horticultural Vinegar, Dish Soap, or other Non-chemical caustic solution - Anyone tried one? Results?
• Other?

Look forward to learning your experience and thoughts.

If they are very small, pulling them will work. Bigger ones can be pulled as well, but you will need a Bobcat or something. Cutting them multiplies your problem. Tools like the weed wrench might work on smaller ones if you try after a good rain when the soil is soft, but for me the stems just broke off. The "Buckthorn Baggie" approach might work if you have just a few, I have not tried vinegar. I have doubts.

This stuff is very tenacious. It re-sprouts from the root, and where there was one, there are now 10.

Maybe, try a very minimalist approach. Cut the buckthorn, and using a sponge-tip applicator or a foam pump, dab full strength glyphosate to the cambium layer. Using a sponge tip applicator like a Buckthorn Blaster, (basically the size of a roll-on deodorant bottle) you can work all day and not use it up. Put some dye in it, though, so you can make sure that you don't miss any. Be careful what you read about glyphosate. It is really pretty benign.

Why are you guys killing the goldenrod? I have a patch of multiflora rose and Japanese honey suckle that I chopped down in the spring, then cut again in the summer, and the tall goldenrod is actually filling in and outcompeting it now, and other native vines like rubus, Virginia creeper, and grape are moving back in. It seems like the goldenrod will help with getting rid of the invasive species.

In my experience it comes down to pick your poison. I too have 'used' Canadian goldenrod to choke out noxious invasives such as Canadian thistle and garlic mustard but CG is aggressive, spreading into fescue rather than the inverse desired outcome. I have found 2,4-D quite successfully allows fescue coverage migration; over time my plan is for smaller and smaller CG patches to exist.

Yes, I'm getting geared up for minimalism as I write this. Just bought a good pair of ARS pruners, hand saw, and holsters http://www.wood-avenue.com/default.asp. I have my buckthorn blaster https://landscape-restoration.com/ already but bought a holster for it as well. Hoping to pull and do "cut stump" to address up to 3-4" diameter saplings on about an acre where there are still natives around that I'd like to preserve. Am thinking about 1st pass pulling, 2nd pass two handed "cut stump", buckthorn blaster in my left, pruner or saw in my right. Go to town.

Larger trunks will require a chain saw but I'm not sure if I should move directly to the saw or use a brush cutter for the next largest stage before moving to the chain saw for the thickest pieces. Any suggestions? As mentioned above, the problem with these, is that one is constantly slowed down by having to swap out the equipment for the buckthorn blaster and vice versa.

I also have a couple of acres that I cleared 6-7 years ago and regretfully just left thereafter. It's just a solid sea of saplings now about head height. Too much to be done by hand and apparently, too tall to spray. Would you agree?

I'm thinking about mowing them next spring with a brush mower. I hear you bill_g_wisconsin(Zone 3) about the resprouting but I think I need to get the height down. Would you agree?

A bobcat is an idea but it would upset the soil and I'm afraid to think what that may mean. Besides, I'd think it would take multiple attempts. I'm thinking about $5k to buy the mower but the bobcat sounds multiple times more expensive and don't think I can afford it.

Most experienced people I know advise against the weed wrench. They say it's not worth the soil disruption. There are probably too many saplings for the baggies. Agreed?

My neighbor has sheep and said he'd buy some extra to graze but there won't be enough for the whole area so we'll have to partition the space for them. I know goats would be better but they're a lot to handle and relatively expensive to rent. He's used the sheep on his property and they seem effective. Any thoughts?

I think the most practical and effective removal approach would be to foliar spray the remainder unaddressed by the sheep the following fall or spring but my wife, a natural health care physician, and the same neighbor who has a decent sized organic vegetable garden near by are having big problems with the idea of broadcasting chemicals. It also pains me to think of all the little things that I will cause to suffer not to mention environmental upset and absorption by humans so I'm desperately trying to find a reasonable alternative.

What would happen if I just kept mowing one or two times a year? Or maybe a mow/graze cycle over a few years? Would the BT die off in time? Alternatively, the vinegar or some other natural product would be great if it worked. Apparently, its used in gardening but I haven't seen anything about it related to BT yet. Has anyone?

More to the minimalist approach, there are products like the Sideswipe Pro http://sideswipeinc.com/ and others which are to spraying like the buckthorn blaster is to "cut stump". I don't know if it would be practical to do 2-3 acres with one of these though. Any thoughts?

@ skip1909(6b New Jersey). the area of my yard that is planted in prairie grass is used as a buffer for the river bank. I wanted varieties with deep roots, to prevent the loss due to erosion. The seed blend that I got had stiff goldenrod, which became a monoculture in areas. It choked out all other varieties of plants. Further, the root system of stiff goldenrod is very shallow, defeating the purpose of the prairie grass planting. That is why I am removing it.

@ Pat & Bill Brown, might I suggest an approach? Priority 1, right now, is find the buckthorn trees with berries, and kill them. Do it right now. Stop the seed production. For the last few years, I have been doing this with a backpack sprayer using a blend of triclopyr and diesel fuel (2 gallons diesel, 1/2 gallon triclopyr), applied to the bottom 18" of the trunk at very low pressure, to where the liquid is just dribbling out. There is very little overspray, and any overspray can be eliminated by wrapping a piece of cloth about 2" long around the nozzle and tie-wrapping it on. This has been virtually 100% effective for me, as long as the triclopyr is applied all the way around and all the way to the ground. I was easily able to kill 3000 larger buckthorn in a day this way, about 1500 per sprayer load. The small thickets that you talk about are very easy to treat en masse this way, especially with the reach of the wand. The small ones don't take much juice - just hold it against the trunk and let it dribble down the trunk. 3 weeks later, brown and crispy. If you are uneasy with diesel or kerosene, there are some vegetable oils that work, too. The idea is to get it to soak into the bark and stay there. Oil makes it stick. The water based stuff just beads up and rolls off. There is some merit to leaving them standing after they die to block light from the existing seed bank, giving the seeds some time to deteriorate rather than sprout. If the buckthorn is within a few feet of a desirable tree, I'd switch to cutting and treating the stump. No point in risking losing the other tree.

Stop at Home Depot, and pick up a 32" Fiskars geared bypass lopper. Make sure it is the geared one. That will easily lop a 2" buckthorn, then just dab around with the buckthorn blaster. (I carry it in my shirt pocket). Easy to walk through the woods that way, and you would be surprised how many you can do in a day. I cut at an angle so that there are more linear inches of cambium exposed to dab. Also, virtually 100% effective, and uses just a few drops of glyphosate per tree.

John, from GreenShoots, suggests lopping the buckthorn at about 3 or 4 ft high, and treating up there. One thing that I have noticed is that the roots rot fairly quickly, and I can grab a 2" tree after a year and a half and break it off at the ground and pull it out. The high cutting might facilitate that well because of the leverage that it gives you. Also, for an old fart like me, there is some merit to not bending over all the time. John, and terrineff here, also suggest a method they call frill cutting (I think) where you whack at the bark near the base with a machete, and foam the cut area with glyphosate. Just a minimal amount is used, and it doesn't get anywhere other than where you blob it.

Give some of these a try, and I don't think you will feel like you have to be spraying all over.

Bill in MN with 40 acres in Wisconsin to deal with.

Thanks for your thoughts bill_g_wisconsin(Zone 3)!

I think that's right, I should get the productive females now to stop them from depositing another year's worth seeds onto the soil. Do you know approximately when they start to become viable in a woodland?

Re: saplings and smaller: I was initially thinking loppers and I've see Fiskars ratchet tools but I was talked into pruners and the high tech saw instead. I'll have to experiment but thanks for the tip!

3000 buckthorn a day is impressive efficiency.

I suppose the backpack sprayer and cloth idea is akin to the Sideswipe Pro approach except you get to carry more herbicide per refill and you're carrying the weight more easily on your back than with your arms. It seems a better application method for larger areas.

I guess I hadn't thought much about the environmental effects of the carrier. I kind of blew this question off thinking the herbicide mixed with it far more toxic but I suppose the herbicide may be more targeted. I need to learn more about this. Having only applied to cut stumps in the past, I used bark oil but that is also expensive. What are the environmental effects of diesel fuel? Which vegetable oils work?

Would you not admit, however, that basil bark treatment uses more herbicide than cut stump application? Only needing to address 3 1/2 acres instead of 40 with sensitive parties involved, this could make the difference.

Take care not to let that buckthorn blaster leak through your shirt! I bought a nylon holster hoping it will protect my skin but neoprene, plastic, or leather would probably be safer.

I just had a pro from one of the area's largest and most established restoration companies over here for a preliminary visit a couple of hours ago. He says the triclopyr in Garlon4 is the only herbicide to use. For any application, direct or spray. Hard to argue with your 100% kill rate but he says his glyphosate kill rates are much lower (98% vs 50%) and glyphosate is more broad spectrum so overspray is more damaging. If I wanted an herbicide different than the triclopyr in Garlon4, they wouldn't take the work. I heard the same from a conservation district staffer a few weeks ago but then again I had another pro, albeit more of a solo operation, say he only uses glyphosate. He hadn't heard of the off brand triclopyrs which should be worth further research. For spray, they mix Garlon4 with water and a surfactant.

I've read that cutting the stumps low leads to better kill rates but if kill rates aren't a problem, I've also seen cuts done at waist height. I'm with you on reducing the bending which is considerable in this project. It does make it easy to remove the stumps but still, that's another step. I guess one must decide whether one is comfortable leaving 3-4' stumps in the ground and possibly removing them or lower stumps without removal. Granted removal after a year or two isn't difficult but given the large numbers, doesn't that second pass for removal still amount to a lot of work?

Do you really get much shade from your dead buckthorn?

Where you at in WI? My wife is from Chippewa.

To Browns: LIsten to Bill_G. Wise man with extensive knowledge.. He absolutely nailed killing all females is #1 priority. Doing so at this point in their growing cycle I'd chainsaw or lop at chest/ waist height and stump treat. Ideally Oct-Nov you cut low and retreat. After seeing occasional resprout using glyphosate alone I've gone to glyphosate + Allegare Triclopyr-4 + surfactant in water 'elixir'. BTW, what is your ecosystem objective once BT contained (if you retain some males) or eradicated?

To terrineff: I hadn't really considered leaving the males but perhaps I should. We will need some under story trees. Doesn't it increase risk of future problems?

To bill_g_wisconsin(Zone 3): Would you mind including a photo of your backpack sprayer with cloth wrapping when you get a chance?

I hadn't considered keeping the males but I will need some under story. Won't the males increase the risk of future problems?

You would rather recut and treat than remove the stumps of previously treated females? Apparently, bill_g_wisonsin did not need to retreat. Rather his stumps would die and, after time, with a little effort, he would remove them. Why do you think you need to retreat?

bill_g_wisconsin(Zone 3) Would you mind including a photo of your backpack sprayer with cloth wrapped tip when you get a chance?

Has anyone tried just hinge cutting without chemicals? If so, please share results. My neighbor did on a couple of lots but then had his goats and sheep graze on them. It worked. Wonder what would happen with hinge cuts without the grazing.

Here's the theory: The plant starves while unsuccessfully continuing to feed and repair it's crown but is too damaged to survive. In the meantime, it neglects putting energy into new shoots.

In my experience, retaining select males does not cause single problem, simply an occasional trimming to maintain desired shape / height. In our wetland buffer zone males provide dappled shade that inhibits weeds and has allowed native ferns, mosses, and Pennsylvania sedge to prosper. Along east slope of our property which abuts County 61 Hwy /Shady Oak 'inherited' BT & black honeylocust provide lovely -- and sound muffling -- tree wall barrier. Please think through your eradication plan before clear cutting.

Useful BT flyers written by our city arborist (caveat in my experience is use Triclopyr + glyphosate combo to prevent resprouting = yet more chemicals);

http://eminnetonka.com/images/naturalresources/CHEM%20control%20of%20BTH%20Feb2016.pdf

http://eminnetonka.com/images/naturalresources/2015%20Buckth%20Workshop%20for%20Residents%20Sept.pdf

To Browns: "Even goats have their limits, however. Either they will have to come back again and again to kill off re-sprouting plants, or Minnetonka will have to use chemical treatments." [Note: quote from our city arborist -- her .pdfs cited above.]

http://www.startribune.com/minnetonka-is-the-latest-city-to-enlist-goats-to-clear-invasive-plants-in-parks/381834721/

LA's Getty Center gave up on use of goats to maintain the property's steep slopes after finding goats stripping away all vegetation caused unintended soil erosion issues.

To Browns: Read the materials I've posted written by Minnetonka's city arborist. This is the wrong time of year to kill BT trees as growth is directed upward into leaf production, not transporting nutrients --and herbicide-- down to the roots for over-wintering. Hence cut down and treat females now, destroy seed-containing branches, and expect to cut/ retreat mid-Oct to March/April, depending on temperatures.

@ Pat & Bill Brown I was not referring to the Fiskars ratchet lopper, I was mentioning the geared lopper - a different thing. The ratchet might be OK, I haven't tried it, but I can absolutely vouch for the 32" handle, geared model. It will easily take a 2" tree in one stroke.

I'll try to put the cloth on the sprayer tonight to take a pic. I don't usually use it that way, but have used it some. It does not cover the end of the nozzle, but rather, wraps around it overhanging by an inch or two, letting the nozzle shoot through the open middle.

To Bill_G: My understanding is if you 'Follow' me, I could message. Thanks.

@ terrineff - following now..

This might be an interesting read for some of us. A guy located near Hugo, MN took on a heavily infested 70 acres, and has the buckthorn under control. He used the basal bark method. One thing that I noticed is that his triclopyr blend was half of the strength that I used. Wondering if anyone else here uses that blend. I like the idea of stretching the triclopyr further, and will start mixing it to 1 quart triclopyr to 2 gallons of diesel and see how that flies.

https://eastmetrowater.areavoices.com/2016/12/19/farmer-in-may-township-wages-war-on-buckthorn-and-wins/

Thanks for posting, Bill. Haven't wanted to mess with diesel so no basal bark experience. As you indicated earlier, I have used Triclopyr-4 + glyphosate + surfactant for frill treatment on steep wooded areas where stump cutting impractical. I do like his technique of working sections biannually.

I couldn't do it alone without the basal bark method, terrineff. With cut and treat and the brush cutter, I could do a few hundred trees in a day, but the bigger ones were tough because of the saw blade diameter. With basal bark, those big ones took no longer than smaller ones, the lugging through the woods was easier with a backpack than with a big brush cutter, and when I was up to two sprayer loads, maybe 3000 - 3600 buckthorn killed per day. I don't think the oil hurts anything, and it really makes it wet to the bark. No beading off.

To Bill_G: Fortunately we have neither the density of BT trees nor acreage that you do (3+ acres of our property is pond). Spouse very skeptical of my abilities vis a vis diesel so I'm content with aqueous mix cut stump treatment. Spouse's fall project is to push farther away from the house killing any females encircling the pond.

Just for an experiment, terrineff, pick one buckthorn, maybe a 2 incher. Make yourself a little mix of triclopyr and Mazola in a small container. Paint the stem of one with a paintbrush, from about 18" up, all the way to the ground. It will take 3 or 4 weeks if it is going to work, but see what happens. I haven't tried Mazola yet, but can't think of why it wouldn't work.

Bill_g, I like the idea that an 8:1 ration triclopyr to oil should be sufficient. A fellow I met from Little Falls, said he was using a 2% solution triclopyr and that worked for him. He has a couple of 160 acre woods full of BT and at $100/gallon, he needed to conserve. I told him about the $70/gal I buy on Amazon.

My next effort will be using the lower percentage.

bill_g Good to know Fiskars geared lopper is a helpful tool.

A neighbor of mine recommended kerosene for stump cutting as sort of a compromise carrier; relatively cheap and relatively clean. Anyone think this a good idea?

Kerosene is also known as #1 diesel, except that the diesel version for road use has had most of the sulfur removed, and has about a 15% bio component, so it is probably cleaner. On the other hand, you pay road tax on the diesel.

From DOW on individual plant treatments with triplocyr: http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDAS/dh_0949/0901b803809493c6.pdf?filepath=ivm/pdfs/noreg/010-51023.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

bill_g_wisconsin(Zone 3) Be sure to report back on your experiment with 1:8 triplocyr.

Anyone have a recommendation for a dye marker to be mixed with oils and triplocyr4? I was just about to use a bottle of "Mark-It-Blue" only to discover it's for use with water based solutions.

Personally I'd do test run using Mark-It but Alligare's Super Marking Dye claims to mix easily with any ingredient. [I use Alligare's Triclopyr-4 and surfactant products] http://www.alligarellc.com/alligare_super_marking_dye.php

I've used Mark-It, and usually use Turf Mark Blue because I like the larger bottle and measuring system. https://www.amazon.com/Turf-Mark-Blue/dp/B003ORSXR8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1502131556&sr=8-3&keywords=turf+mark+blue

They mix, but I think I've seen some of the blue settle to the bottom of the tank. I shake my back to mix it back up.

Neither stayed visible on the trunks for more than a few days unless there was moss growing on the trunk, then I could see the color in the moss.

I'll try the Alligare product next time. Thanks, terrineff. I'm looking for something that will keep my hands blue for months. ;)

I too own Mark-It, not Alligare's dye product. Can anyone identify this late season weed with very shallow roots? Plot erupted where BT removed in wetlands buffer.

@ terrineff, I have a bunch of it, too, and have also been curious.

Maybe it's Cacalia suaveoleans. I made the mistake of seeding it once and now have trouble trying to control it.

See if it looks like this.

https://www.prairiemoon.com/cacalia-suaveolens-sweet-indian-plantain-prairie-moon-nursery.html

Otherwise, post it up on the Name that plant forum.

terrineff, my guess would be dame's rocket. Leaves look like it, but seems like there are too many leaves.

Not Dame's Rocket, does not flower. I also don't recall Cacalia-esque flowers last year. Thanks for suggesting forum question post which I will do.

More on Dyes:

Mark-It-Blue: Company tech support says not for use with oil based mixtures, only water.

Alligare Super Marking Dye: Company tech support says will work with bark oil but does not mix with diesel oil. They also sell a bark oil/dye premix.

I didn't find any other dyes that said they mixed with oils so I figured Alligare my best bet for use with triplocyr4 and bought some.

bill_g_wisconsin(Zone 3): Someone said in one forum he was using a 1:9 ratio of triplocyr and diesel fuel for basal bark application. fyi

Need Application Advice

Best application approach to areas where there a a lot of saplings, 3-4' high, dense but not dense enough to make broadcast necessary given other plants in area?

One pro said he would "spot-spray" another said he would use "cut-stump" but it seems to me spot-spray would involve a lot of over spray but cut-stump would be quite time consuming. Not yet having used basil bark treatment, it would seem to me that the trunks are too thin.

Those PVC/wick type hockey stick applicators are like spot spraying without the over spray. Are they not? I haven't seen much info on their use, however. How must the application be made - touch some leaves? how many leaves? Use the spray dilution ratios? Triplocyr4 still the best choice? All said and done, is it really any easier or quicker than cut-stump?

How would you approach this application?

Where are all the berries?

I actually started to get my hands dirty yesterday for the first time in some years attacking berry producing females as advised above. One thing that surprised me was that berry production is only in higher sun areas. There are no berries in my woods. Will they just arrive later or is this aspect of the work smaller than I feared?

Garlon4 vs. Alligare Triplocyr4

Garlon4 contains no petroleum distillates for more friendly environmental impact per DOW. Alligare Triplocyr4 does per Alligare rep. fyi

Canola Oil can be used to dilute triplocyr

per one user on web. My concern is how well it will penetrate.

My estimate is just wait as relatively early for berry production. Spouse recently chainsawed/ lopped females tagged last fall he didn't get to -- only way we knew female were those tags. As I mentioned, Oct-Nov he will cut to stump height and retreat (at least they're not fruiting). First year as we tackled backyard perimeter along our pond discovered what we term "The Mother of All Buckthorns". Appeared as if ancient Van Gogh-esque gnarled European olive tree.

I found one of those mother's too. I was cutting saplings for hours then I saw it. Took my breath away. Am going to visit it with a chain saw momentarily.

Some of these sun blessed berries around the property are pretty ripe, i.e. not too early to cut down but I guess I need to check periodically around the property for late bloomers.

Spouse had to tackle ours in multiple sections. As located in wetland buffer zone used Shore-Klear Plus aquatic glyphosate (18%) which successfully killed, no regrowth. Keep in mind fall /winter herbicide application is most effective time.

To Bill_G and dandy_line: Thanks for Houzz Name That Plant Forum suggestion. Believe responder from U.K. nailed it as American Burnweed. MN's invasive plant list reports present in Hennepin County. Interesting info:

http://extension.psu.edu/plants/crops/news/2014/07/weed-of-the-week-2013-american-burnweed

There were many of those big, gnarly beasts up to maybe 6-8" diameter at my place. Underneath them is the mother of all seed banks. Basal bark spraying killed the gnarly beasts 100%, though. They are all still standing from a few years ago, but they are dead, with no new shoots.If it was a multi-trunk hydra, I used a little more pressure to get the middle wet. Killed it just fine, too. Hit all the shoots, it will be brown in 3 weeks. With this method, they become just as dead in the spring as they do in the fall. If I whack them in the spring, there are no berries to worry about. In the late fall when the leaves were gone, I accidentally cut down a couple of wild plums with similar looking bark, so I like to do it when the leaves are on.

I cut down a clump of smaller ones with plenty of green berries this weekend, and foamed the stump ends. Berries are definitely out. I bagged the berries, along with the seeds from the two wild parsnips that I found.

I don't have the budget for Garlon brand, Pat & Bill Brown. I'm mixing it with diesel fuel, so adding my own petroleum distillates. ;] Go for the Garlon if you want. I've had to buy probably 25-30 gallons so far, and at the price they get for the name brand, I can't afford it.

Thanks for the ID. Here, "fireweed" is a whole different thing, a beautiful pink flower, just finishing its blooms.. The burnweed is not an invasive, according to Minnesota Wildflowers. Interestingly, one of the comments was that it showed up after clearing buckthorn. The leaves are actually tasty. Glad it is not garlic mustard!

https://www.minnesotawildflowers.info/flower/pilewort

To Bill_G. What I'm finding on Internet indicates another battle to fight. If left unchecked will spread from current wetland buffer location into the fescue and due to its late sprout date, pre-emergents ineffective for prevention. "It is absent or uncommon in intact,high-quality prairie fen systems." Guess we know we're not dealing with high-quality prairie systems at this point....

I don't want to exaggerate but believe our "MOABT" diameter was 18-24". MN DNR claims BT seeds remain viable for up to 5 years in soil so there is hope!

Whether to Leave Male BT in Place?

from my district conservation office:

"I would not leave the male plants unless you are really trying to prioritize. The leaves of buckthorn are known to be very high in nitrogen and can alter nutrient cycling. They are also known to be allelopathic (give off chemical compounds that prevent or deter other species from growing)."

fyi

Pick your poison, et. al.

Anyone know where to buy Garlon4 in quantities less than 2 1/2 gallons?

I buy Triclopyr 4 on Amazon for around $70 a gallon, shipped. I think it should be cheaper than that but this is the best I've found.

The brand name Garlon 4 only comes in 2.5 and 30 gallon sizes, per the Dow website: http://www.dowagro.com/en-us/vm/products/garlon-4-ultra

I looked around the net for info ion Garlon 4 contents. Found this which supposedly is from Dow chemical. Shows it contains petroleum distillates.

Re: Petrochemcial Distillates in Garlon 4 Ultra (current version)?

Yes, DOW promotes the absence of petrochemicals on their product page but I also found a MSDS sheet that listed kerosene as a primary dilutant which raised the same question. Here is the response from our local DOW rep:

"As I mentioned, there are no petroleum distillates used in Garlon 4 Ultra.

Instead, a methylated seed oil is used as a solvent. ".

She says I showed her an old MSDS sheet. It would seem that this was at least one of the changes made in the new and improved "Ultra" formula.

Here is the component excerpt from the Garlon 4 Ultra sheet:

Of course, this leaves a big "other" category accounting for nearly 40% of the product which it seems you're just supposed to take DOW's word for.

Re: Wick Application in Lieu of Spot Spraying

Anyone have any experience with this?

Do you broadcast spray? If so, is it possible to be specific about when?

I found that I got really good kill rates on new leaf growth in the month of May. It is early enough that most native forbs are still dormant and the new BT leaves are soaking up the herbicide.

Is good to know May is crunch time, I haven't sprayed in spring yet. I still stand by my late October spraying. And will spray in October again this fall. You can't time the market, but you can time the buckthorn spraying.

Good to know. Do you have a good history of total kill in the fall with foliar spray?

Fall foliar spray killed the buckthorn pretty well for me, but the ground became pretty much of a wasteland, with things just now starting to grow back in two years later. Burnweed, motherwort, more buckthorn, etc. At least it is easy to find the buckthorn now. Luckily, no sign of garlic mustard.

To Bill_G: Our experience is similar. Consider motherwort 'good' weed, pulled or sprayed burnweed could access. Today's project glyphosate blade-treat RCG, quackgrass, even few clumping ornamental grasses that popped up in the fescue. City seeded along Shady Oak boulevard in spring but drop-and-pray is no plan -- I've controlled the ragweed and trefoils but barnyard grass winning vs. fescue.

On a positive note, cranberry bush viburnums and three conifers planted by county ~2010 on slope west of Shady Oak experiencing explosive growth since I cleared encircling weeds last year. That slope was land of garlic mustard, Oxeye daisy, Canadian thistle, common mullein. Now primarily goldenrod or migrated fescue.

Motherwort is an invasive alien, that is destroying native woodlands across the continent. Are you for, or against the environment? I just have to ask, as you have grown tansy before as well. Hope you aren't encouraging others to grow these plants.

Re: Spraying

Seasonality - Both pros I spoke with spray in the fall. Unfortunately, I neglected to ask why. I'm thinking one benefit would be to allow more time for chemical to erode before the natives want to come back to life. DOW says the half life on Garlon4 Ultra is 30-45 days. I haven't looked at glyphosate. Anyone know?

Whether to Spray? - 2 years before natives return after spraying seems terrible to me and not what one would think given the above half life. What was your spray mix and ratios? How has this effected your decision to spray vs. treating the basil bark? Can you be specific about what point you resort to spot spraying (if you do it) and to broadcast spraying?

To Jay 6a: After four hours of partially back-breaking work (oh, ankles covered in burs somehow during my final pass too) pulling weeds on --in some areas 45' slope --yesterday literally laughed out loud at your conjecture. Recent rains promoted seed sprout of garlic mustard, ragweed, Oxeyes, burnweed, common mullein, Creeping Charlie, leafy splurge, etc., not to mention huge RCG issue in areas cleared by the city but not maintained for decades prior to us purchasing the undeveloped property in 2014. In my experience, one motherwort appears for every thousand or more garlic mustard plants. Hence gladly accept a few M. As to tansy, unknowingly purchased as nursery stock 7-8 years ago from central MN nursery now out of business so guess in the end 'they got theirs'.

Never even heard of buckthorn prior to moving here but go ahead and berate the many, many hours plus expenses we've dedicated to reclaiming MN naturalscape.

To Browns: From my August 3rd post, Page 1.

http://eminnetonka.com/images/naturalresources/CHEM%20control%20of%20BTH%20Feb2016.pdf

While getting discouraged that the weeds are winning on west slope yesterday, I stumbled onto weed-free patch of young yellow nutsedge. Am I crazy to consider leaving it untouched, actually encourage its spread, to choke out broadleafs knowing it can be effectively contained via Sedgehammer? Thoughts welcome (spouse deferred to group wisdom). :)

Re: Motherwort

Considered invasive by MN DNR

I know, gnomeabram and dandy_line identified 11/8/16 photo I posted. Agree with dandy_line only mildly invasive, certainly VERY minor player in our weed fields. Don't know what type of property you're reclaiming but outside of viburnum shrubs, 3 conifers, and narrow strip of seeded fescue every plant we 'inherited' is classified as noxious invasive weed. Hence my mantra, pick your poison. To that philosophy I'm now going to add Rome wasn't built in a day!

2 years before natives return after spraying seems terrible to me

I can believe this would happen when dealing with a thick copse of BT where sunlight had been shut out for many years. The natives wouldn't be very prevalent in that situation.

I saw natives coming back in the same year after spraying in the Spring. A few years later the woods was mostly recovered. Each situation is going to be different. This is not a simple process and can take many years to resolve.

Every alien plant that is currently wreaking havoc, was at some point in the past, rare and uncommon over here. Isn't it better to stay on the side of caution. Dandy, after ten years, how many of the 100,000 buckthorns are there still left to kill? If the situation seems humanly impossible to control, perhaps you could plant some native buckthorns so they can be incorporated into the gene pool of new generations. Just thought I would mention that some carriers charge for pdf file downloads, so if anyone puts on a link to a pdf could you please let us know beforehand.

About an acre of land on my property is established deciduous and conifer trees that had an under story of buckthorn. Now that the buckthorn is gone, I have a shaded moonscape instead of an under story. Budget for restoration is quite small. I was thinking of planting orchardgrass seed in these areas along with shade-tolerant wildflower seeds next spring, but my main goal is to prevent a weed infestation and worry more about natives later. Is this a sound plan? I don't expect any natives to return on their own since the land is part of a subdivided farm field.

Garlon4 Breakdown and Replanting

This from our DOW rep:

"These herbicides break down in many different ways – by light
exposure, saturated soils, microbial activity in soil and soil temperatures.
When the soil is frozen, there is little to no soil activity therefore the
herbicide is breaking down slower in those cold temperatures than it would in the summer when the soil temps are higher."

And DOW's advice to farmers but possibly somewhat relevant to weed busters:

"I would wait no shorter than 65 days to come back and plant a broadleaf crop. Before planting a broadleaf crop, I would highly recommend a soil bioassay test to be done."

(these are graphic files not .pdfs. I don't think houzz accepts .pdfs)

Gnomeabram, I don't know much about orchard grass, but my concern would be whether or not the grass would overtake and outcompete the wildflowers after some time. It's very interesting, and I want to read more on the subject. I would suggest you get more info on it too. Many restored prairies get overwhelmed with grasses because there are no browsers to keep the grasses in check these days.

I haven't done this, but should give it a shot - find a seed mix of trilliums, etc., flowers and plants that grow in the shade under trees, and scatter them sparsely. Eventually, they should fill in.

Thanks for the replies. I forgot to mention that, unfortunately, the area in question is surrounded on two sides by adjoining properties which are full of buckthorn right up to the property line. My fear is that if I don't immediately blanket this area with something like a grass it's just going to be consumed by buckthorn seedlings in a couple years. I do have plans for seeding trilliums and the like in other areas, but fear woodland plants would be doomed to fail in this kind of setting.

The damned stuff seems to come up everywhere. As I was going through the tall prairie plantings on my own property this summer thinning out the goldenrod, sure enough, there were 4 buckthorns. I have no idea where they came from, but they didn't care that they were growing in very thick, tall stuff. I've got them staked out now for the glyphosate foam blob experiment.

To bill_g: Currently running my own glyphosate foam blob experiment on small section RCG. Snapped some stems and applied onto sheath tip, others along leaf blades or at nodes. Foamer did not perform fully up to my expectation but if this works, much superior to the collateral damage from spraying. But unfortunately, much more time consuming.

Re: neighbors. I've pretty much eliminated burdock from our property but found sea of it under tree canopy of adjoining property to the south. In June sprayed his garlic mustard along the sidewalk and burdock down the slope. Checked yesterday, GM gone but second round of burdock. Sprayed again plus ragweed zone the county owns abutting our lot (i.e., Hwy 61 boulevard) but does not maintain. :(

To gnomeabram: Likely you're familiar with Prairie Nursery (where we procured our no-mow fescue seed). They sell "24 seed mixes inspired by native plant communities, using a balance of flowers & grasses". Website also indicates custom mixes available.

http://www.prairienursery.com/store/seed-mixes/page/1?_url=seed-mixes/&_page=2

Thanks terrineff, I had been looking at my options for restoration, and with those prices I'll probably end up doing this in phases. My current thinking is to plant a 10-15 ft strip of mowed fescue at all of the property lines and save the natives for the interior areas. I noticed another property in the neighborhood doing this and it looks nice and seems to be keeping neighboring invasives from creeping back in. Still a lot of cleanup to do this fall before I can plant anything. This pic shows one of the property lines I'm dealing with.

You could look for an untouched, natural woodland edge, that has a large variety of nice natives, and grasses, or sedges, or rushes. Then try to copy it .

Wow, does that look clean! So as not to search the blog, mind if I ask how long you've been tackling BT removal with concurrent invasive weed control?

I've been dabbling in it on and off since 2008. Eventually I concluded that approach wasn't working, and that a once nice property was becoming an overgrown wasteland. I got an echo brush cutter last year and clear cut everything. I've done two 20+ gallon sprayings of glyphosate/24d in spring with a third (hopefully last) coming in September.

Came to my attention I'd forgotten small section of desirable wildflowers near watershed district's drainage pipe. Apparently seeded by county after clearing out BT to provide maintenance access. (Post-bloom bergamot and milkweed.)

gnomeabram , which blades have you found to work the best on your Echo? I've tried a few, and lately have been using the kind with chainsaw teeth.

Bill, I've had really good luck with the Renegade 80-tooth carbide tipped blades sold on Amazon. Two of them got me through the entire winter. Just watch out, the teeth tend to fly off if you hit rocks, barbed wire, etc. I've never tried the chainsaw teeth versions. I use the stock blade for cutting stumps flush to the ground when i'm making trails for the mower...the original has many miles on it and still going strong.

gnomeabram, I've been liking the chainsaw tooth version. They obviously leave a bigger kerf so less binding. One problem, they only seem to come in 9" and 7". My Echo is 8". The 7" is probably the better choice, because of the grab of those big teeth. I've been gingerly using the 9", because of some of the larger diameter buckthorn to have to cut through. I have used the Renegade, and liked them. I bought a combo pack with an 80 tooth and a 32 tooth. The 32 worked better on the larger BT, and the 80 was great on the smaller ones.

I was dealing mostly with saplings under a half inch, so binding wasn't really an issue. The renegade is like a hot knife through butter. Anything I thought would require more than 2 or 3 swipes I passed over and came back later with my chainsaw. I like to deal with the larger stump separately anyways to be sure they get a good drink of glyphosate.

You are right. A hot knife through butter is a good description. My only trouble with the brush cutter was that it was too much fun, and working alone, I cut down too many at a time to be able to find all the stumps to feed that glyphosate to them. Found them the next year, though. :(

Day two of spouse cutting/ lopping swath of female BT hiding in plain sight along east perimeter. What we thought a fortuitous green screen between house and Hwy 61 will be decimated. Retreat stump project for October.

Read RCG is so aggressive it can choke out cattails. Surveyed our pond; sure enough that has happened along fully sun-exposed shore. Anyone had experience hiring professionals to eradicate aquatic RCG? [BTW, no feedback re: retaining yellow nutsedge as broadleaf deterrent so Sedgehammer wins the day.]

terrineff, That Reed Canary Grass is overwhelming but can be controlled. if you can remove all the RCG duff in the fall, or spring, then it is easy to see the new growth come up in April, before anything else comes out of hibernation. That's the time to nail it with Glyphosate(Roundup). I found that it needs to be done for a few years but can be eradicated that way.

Since the topic of buckthorn happily diverted to other ecological agrarian issues in this thread, this past summer. I decided to drop a couple of prairie photos to help myself feel better about myself and my buckthorn plight. Not that I own a camera, nor would claim to be a photographer but I do own a new fangled camera phone that I use for amusement. I eagerly await attacking the buckthorn mid-October with a chemical mixture and backpack pump sprayer after not having touched buckthorn for a year. (Oh to be deprived!) Believe it or not, October is just around the corner. Getting mentally prepared is vitally important, akin to going into battle against a bitter enemy. Amazingly, leaves on the trees are starting to turn already for reasons unbeknownst to me? Perhaps the shortening days are going to my head? Nevertheless, we need an official buckthorn battle cry and here is one to ponder...."I SEE THE LIGHT BEYOND THE BUCKTHORN!"..........Thanks for the release. Alas, I feel much better.

That is beautiful. I'm hoping the sunny parts of my yard look like that in a couple years, I'm planting nearly all the same wildflowers and grasses!

Thanks! Ours is in its 5th season. Don't get discouraged in the first couple of years. If you spot treat the thistle, pull invasives and burn each spring it will come. Well worth every bit of the work. Seeing the pollinators and creatures in their habitat is awesome. Soon though my attention will turn to the woods and the buckthorn.

A B, and anyone else, what is a safe way to burn? Some of mine is in desperate need, and I'm afraid of setting off the entire neighborhood.

Like you, I took a little break from the buckthorn. Well, it rained just about every time I went to my property. Tomorrow, I'll spend some time walking around with the lopper and Buckthorn Blaster. The last few weeks, I found about a dozen ten-footers full of seeds, that I missed when they were smaller. There must be a bunch of them that grew like weeds. Under the MOABs (mother of all buckthorns) there are some solid seedbank sprouts to spray, as well. It was good to have a little break and work on the thistle and the parsnips. Those have been massively cut back now.

Bill, I would check into if you have any non-profit organizations in your area dedicated to maintaining native prairies. There is one in my area who helps prairie owners burn their prairies in the spring. My prairie is about 2 acres and they can do it with a small crew plus me. They bring the equipment, water bladders, fire snuffers, drip torches, etc. I usually have all the fire breaks mown, then the weather has to be good. They bring a weather monitor to check wind speed and humidity. We usually burn into a light breeze and of course set a back burn. Usually only takes about 20 minutes. It does get hot but has never gotten away from us. I also have a hydrant on my property and a lot of garden hose. I call my neighbors and local fire dept. before hand so everyone knows what is going on. What I am told in establishing a prairie, a burn every year for the first 5 years and a burn once every 5 years thereafter. Sometimes only a partial burn is necessary.

A B, thanks. There does seem to be an organization favoring native prairie, the Andover Pollinator Awareness Project. I've written an email to them, and am awaiting a response. Hopefully, they can point me in the right direction. For my property in Wisconsin, which has a lot more that needs burning, I'll try the DNR. Maybe they can steer me to some help there.

AB, love to hear about some of the things you've noticed with the annual burning. Have any issues with small trees? or is it mainly to keep noxious weeds at bay? Which weeds does burning keep at bay?

I planted about 5/8 of an acre last fall and this summer its been weed central. I've mowed it 3 times this summer. I am not a impatient guy, I've planted thousands of trees, but to say this prairie planting looks dismal is an understatement.

I've got about 2 acres to plant this fall and i'm hoping for better results.

also how did you prep you area for planting? Herbicide? tilling?

Klunker, fire does seem to keep the noxious weeds at bay. After a burn in April, the earth is blacken down to almost the soil. I think this gives the native plants a jump start because the warmth from the sun is absorbed by the black ash. Also, the biomass from the previous growing season is burned off to open up the plants to more sun light. It seems the root systems of the native prairie plants are much deeper than noxious weeds, so are more adapted to survive a burn. It is plausible that the ash adds nutrients to the soil to become more beneficial to the natives. Some of the native seed cracks open from the heat of the burn to encourage sprout and I also wonder if the noxious seed bank is destroyed in the burn? I have noticed that thistle still pops after a burn, but it is very easy to see and spot treat with herbicide. The prairie is easy to walk as the plants are just starting to surface. It is my understanding the burn also inhibits the woody plants and will burn off saplings, wild grape vines and others. To prep, we made sure no chemicals were sprayed on our land two years prior to planting the prairie and we did a dormant seeding in winter just before the first snow. We broadcast seeded and dragged it into what was left of the previous season corn field. The first year the prairie looked dismal but turned the corner in it's second season with a mass of Black eyed Susan. Every year brings something new and there is always an issue to rear it's head. "They" say it gets easier after the 5th season, but I am somewhat skeptical. Hope that answers some of your questions.

One time, Ron Bowman, the founder of Prairie Restoration was a speaker at an engineering function that I attended. He explained that the native prairie grasses that we have evolved with regular fires. A few of those fires were naturally started, but most were set because bison collected when the fresh green plants came up after a burn, making them easier to hunt. The trouble with setting a fire like that was that there was no way to put it out, so they would be moved along with the wind and burn for days. He said that a typical area would burn every few years.

Did I read right, that thistle roots go down 16 feet? Maybe it is easy for them to survive a fire that way. I'm having pretty good luck with the thistle with a couple of blobs of foamed glyphosate on them.

One of the field techs from Prairie Restoration suggested to me once to establish the grasses first for a few years, and then put out the flowers. I just glyphosated about a half acre of canary grass yesterday, and will probably try to reestablish with grasses first. When I have put out seed mixes, it was hard for me to tell what was weeds and what was not initially. Maybe, with grasses first, it won't be as tough, and 2,4-D might be helpful initially. Has anyone else had any experience that way?

To klunker: What exactly did you plant?

To Bill_G: Initial weed control attempt I sprayed 2,4-D test area on Hwy 61 slope. Thank goodness limited area as didn't know to dilute its 63.7% concentration (love that obfuscated labeling). Denuded everything but over time the fescue migrated and now dense, only requires spot spraying for Oxeyes.

RCG horse of another color. Treated clumps where willing to accept collateral damage via sprayer, ongoing process treating individual RCG using foam dispenser (thanks for recommendation). My application technique has improved but it's a time-consuming (and on 45' slope, back-breaking) process. Afraid I don't see any other alternative where fescue already established.

To A B: Wish I could provide backstory on section of our property some entity cleared of BT and obviously broadcast-seeded wildflower mix (see 8/13/17 photo). Outside minor clearing to be done at water's edge area remains virtually BT and weed free. Discovered gorgeous blue-purple flowers last week, first time they've appeared, so there is hope for prairie reclamation over time.

On side note, Tom and I walked the neighborhoods surrounding Shady Oak Lake. Disappointed to see fields of untreated Creeping Charlie and groves of female BT. And an unknowing couple (executed teardown /rebuild) nurturing 3' ragweed as specimen plant in center of their lawn. Very next day young person walking by declared our yard "Awful!" to her companions. Well, I no longer take it personally. Actually progress has been heartening in light of what we 'inherited'. Persevere. Coping mantra? "Rome was not built in a day".

P.S. Fun to post while spouse out chainsawing female BT....

Went up to the lake this weekend with full intentions of taking the backpack sprayer out loaded with 2,4-D, to spot spray the zillions of buckthorn seedlings. Sure enough, I brought everything I needed except the 2,4-D. I grabbed a bottle of glyphosate by mistake. That is why I hit the reed canary grass the way I did. There were also some spots full of next years' parsnip bolts, so nailed them while I was at it. Then, took the loppers and sponge tip applicator out and found a few dozen buckthorn stragglers. All the big ones in the area i walked are dead, so it is maintenance mode there now. The larger areas in the back of the property are going to be a lot of work with maintenance. While I bought a gallon of triclopyr, maybe it won't be necessary this year. We'll see.

While I was out with the lopper, I tried hand pulling some of the buckthorn sprouts. Some came out good, others were pretty wiry and I could not get them out of the ground. A tool like a long handled geared lopper but with an oversized pliers head would make pulling the seedlings much easier. I wonder if there is something like that available.

The pin cherries are pretty easy to spot now, as are the plumbs. Maybe they will do better with the buckthorn out of their way. The biggest concentration of 1" type buckthorn that I had previously missed was tight around a beautiful 16" diameter black cherry. I'm glad that I missed the buckthorns there earlier, otherwise I might have lost that cherry to triclopyr.

terreniff,

I used this

https://www.prairiemoon.com/grand-diversity-mixed-height-prairie-seed-mix.html

seed mix from prairie moon, had a good showing of black-eyed susan, hard to find anything other than weeds. planted it in the late fall. in fact before we finished the snow was flying covering the already broadcasted seeds.

AB, thanks for the reply, no chemicals used for 2 years? I can't imagine a corn field with no herbicides and no weeds.

Sorry, just going by the best of my recollection. Prep was over 5 years ago so it is a bit of a blur. Instead of writing "no chemicals", I should have wrought, "no pre-emergents, and only non-residuals". Sorry I can't recall specifics but I do recall having the conversation. (No, I'm not a politician:) Anyway, whatever the farmer used or didn't use, we had positive results. Something to think about if you are transitioning from a corn field to a prairie.

This weekend I experimented with making a small buckthorn puller for the little ones. It worked great on the first one, but the wooden handle broke on the second buckthorn. I replaced it with a fiberglass sledgehammer handle, and now waiting for the epoxy to harden to give it another go.

Other than that, the lawn terrorist, Charlie Bin Creepin, has all but taken over the back yard. I tried a mix of Trimec and Triclopyr to see how it does. Probably have to hit it one more time in a couple of weeks, and will know next spring if it worked.

Next weekend, will head up to the lake. Buckthorn should be pretty visible.

bill_g_wisconsin(Zone 3

Will the weedwand you mention above work with triclopyr?

Pat & Bill Brown, the manufacturer is pretty responsive. That would be a good question to ask him. He would probably want to know if you are using the water or oil based triclopyr, and if it is oil based, what kind of oil you will be mixing it with.

Otherwise, they aren't all that expensive to try with. If you are using oil based mix, maybe dump any excess into a jar when you are done and save for next time, rather than trust the valve.

Glad to see new additions to BT thread. Last week when temp 70' sprayed saplings near perimeters of the yard and slope areas where BT females no longer present. With other fall yard work to accomplish, did not work my way into the ~20-25' wetland buffer zone formerly dense with BT brush and mature trees until Thursday. So disappointed to find great deal of resprouting at base of otherwise decaying 1" to 2" specimens cut to height of 2'-3' and treated with 18% glyphosate. From my notes seems it's now too cold for foliar treatment. Everyone, do I now need to wait until spring growth to treat? In your experience what % 2,4-D / Triclopyr 4 / glyphosate has proven lowest threshold which ensures eradication?

Driving through the neighborhood today, I can see clearly all of the buckthorn that my neighbors have. The neighbor with the biggest woods had a bunch last year, but I went through it with my triclopyr backpack, and I see almost none this year.

The "Grandpa's Weeder" modifications seemed to work to pull smaller buckthorn, so I ordered up some strong aluminum pieces to try making one from scratch. For anyone's information who might be interested, I bolted some small aluminum plates to a Grandpa's Weeder between the tines, and screwed a piece of 2x4 to the tail piece. Then, I removed the weak wooden handle, and epoxied a fiberglass sledge hammer handle in its place. Pulls the small ones, 1/4 to 3/8" diameter. Wow, do those things develop a set of roots!

I'm going for my 4th treatment at the Arboretum for this month. Still to do is a large stand of 2" small trees. Will use the chain saw and 2-4-d. Shouldn't take too much time to do.

I'm still using foliar spray on small ones that have such a small diameter stem.

terrineff, it appears that the original cutting at 2 to 3' must have been excessive hence the re-sprouting. I would think there's still time to do foliar spray using five to 10% 2-4-d.

To dandy_line: Thanks. With all our precipitation of late, find hand pulling saplings relatively quick work on slopes. Increased % glyphosate for recent cut & treats but believe adjunct herbicide essential going forward. Do you recommend 2,4-D over Triclopyr? Diluted to what % concentration if sole agent vs. in combination?

To terrineff: Regarding cut and treat, I use glyphosate ag strength straight up, except for a little blue marker dye. Cut them near the ground, dab heavily around the cambium. They do not come back. For foliar spraying, the Wisconsin DNR guys I have talked with recommend triclopyr, and I followed their recommendations, and tried triclopyr alone, and also mixed with 2,4-D (Crossbow brand). It definitely works. Be aware that it kills woody plants such as nice hardwood trees and other natives sprouts that might have already shed their leaves, so if you use triclopyr this way, be careful. I'm going back to Dandy_line's recommendation for stronger 2,4-D for foliar use because it will not kill the hardwoods or the upcoming, currently leafless, natives. Will still use triclopyr/diesel for basal bark applications if I need to, but next year will try a little lower concentration to save money.

It is going to be a cold and damp weekend in Wisconsin, but I'm going to try camping anyway, and try to take advantage of the buckthorn visibility with the other leaves down. If it is wet, I'll probably take out the backpack sprayer with triclopyr for the trunks, rather than spray 2,4-D. If it is dry, 2,4-D will get the nod. Then again, I might not feel like camping in the cold. Then again, there has been a whooping crane spotted in the area, and I'd sure like to get some photos, so it might be worth the long shiver in the sleeping bag. Maybe only 300 whooping cranes in the world. Decisions, decisions, decisions!

On another note, my bottle of Speedzone came in, and I sprayed 5 gallons of mix on the creeping charlie in the back yard. I hope it does something.

Progress in Minnetonka! Tom spent total of 14 hours last weekend and this chainsawing -- dropping branches and felling female trees -- then lopping brush. Views of our pond incredible vs. 2014. Many lessons learned. Uncertain if Facebook video clip posted by Tom generally accessible but here goes:

https://www.facebook.com/tom.stockert/videos/10207859622366725/

His accompanying comment: "Year four of brush removal...only four or five more years and we'll have it under control. Would not have been able to stand here last year let alone see the house."

Mixed 10% 2,4-D per dandy_line's advice to attack stump resprouts today. Thanks for all the wisdom mined from this blog, gang.

Terineff: Can't see the video without logging on to Facebook. Maybe you can try posting out on youtube? I for one would really like to see your progress.

Sharon and I spent about 16 hours attacking the stuff at the Arb this fall with very good results. They are very sensitive about one area that has their prized Showy Lady Slippers and this is the time of year that we can only be safely doing Buckthorn removal in that place. I used my chainsaw to remove a number of large-sized trees, and we only did open stump spraying. I'm anticipating seeing the results in future years.

Am cutting and stump treating an impenetrable buckthorn patch about 200x40’ of moderate sized trees probably averaging 2” in
diameter and 15’ tall, ranging small to 6". I’m left with one BIG pile of brush and would love advice on how to best dispose of it. Prairie Resto said they would cut, treat,
gather, and burn in this area if they were to do it but I didn't hire them. It’s a lot of debris to
move and I’m not sure what I’d gain by moving it. Can it be burned where it is?
Can I burn it myself? What do you advise for most efficient disposal?

See short video I made for you: https://youtu.be/2Ac_gOeBMdI

Can you just lop it and leave it? I know it is a big tangled mess, but that can be reduced quite a bit with a lopper. It seems to rot pretty quickly.

It may be worth lopping it to condense it some. I'd still like to burn it though and be rid of it.

This is the second time I've gone through my yard on a buckthorn cleanse. First time was about 10 years ago. I too thought that the buckthorn might have decayed but I'm finding a lot of carcasses out there. Not gone, unfortunately, just covered.

I have some spots where I pile it and know I can burn it safely. Usually don't make my burn piles much larger than a compact car. Also like the idea of leaving some nicely stacked brush piles for habitat for critters, usually in inconspicuous areas. Toyed with the idea of burning on a frozen pond, but not sure how the ash would affect the aquatic life? Just throwing that one out there.

I saw the video and am impressed with the amount of effort you put in. You have some large piles thereto get rid of. I see a bit of swamp grass there which will catch on fire if you're not careful, Once there is snow cover there won't be much of a problem with it getting out of control. The piles the way they are now will not burn well-they need to have larger concentrated mass in order to sustain the fire, so you may need to organize them into individual piles ,or else into one long continuous row.

I did a burn like that of a long row by waiting until the wind was just right so that it would feed the burn. Bur one must be careful not to set the woods on fire!

Wish I more tech-savvy -- tried to post pre-/post- property photos but unable to upload. Question: unwilling to accept bramble mess for multi-year process? Tom dedicated great deal of time and moreover effort to chipper/shredder work for two years. He now believes natural process of decay supersedes effort of cleanup. Though legally we could burn, not worth risk of spread/ unintended consequences. This fall he's concentrated on lopping downed wood as suggested by Bill_G. Coincidentally, while reordering BT Blaster spent time pursuing the website; their contention garlic mustard significantly more drastic threat than BT disturbing, no?

Yes terrineff, prospect of garlic mustard being more difficult to remove is disturbing. I'm fairly new to that battle. Am planning to burn alot of large buckthorn piles this winter. Local fire warden claims little risk with snow covered ground. Nor permit needed no matter the size if there are 3" or more of snow. fyi

Should One Cover Brush with Plastic?

This brings a question to mind. My fire warden and one or two others suggested covering the brush piles with a tarp to facilitate drying and eventual burning but I'd rather not if it wasn't necessary. Prepping these piles takes effort, the plastic sheeting is costing me $ hundreds, and we all know the planet doesn't need more of it. Does anyone have the experience to know whether I actually need to cover mature buckthorn cut in the late fall and early winter to be able to burn pile of it by the end of February?

To bill_g_wisconsin(Zone 3)

I just bought one of these Green Weeder and wondered whether it might help you with all your basil bark treatments. It seems like it should be a step up from a rag. Haven't used it yet but will keep you posted. Has anyone else used one?

Pat&Bill-it seems counter-intuitive to me that plastic would enable drying. Keeping the brush open to the air makes more sense.

I think that three months of drying is too short a time. However, if you time it just right where you have a brisk wind coming from the right direction, and snow cover to prevent serious wildfire, then it should burn down just right. The snow cover is essential because the pile will smolder for more than a few days after.

If you have some additional material to add to the pile, that would help also. At least at the start of the burn.

I always watch the future weather cast so that the wind direction and speed is just right. Then light it off and watch it burn.

dandy_line(3B (Northern, Mn))

To be clear, the plastic is just on top, the sides remain open. Many people around here, as well as myself, cover their fire wood stacks in this manner as well especially if they don't have a sunny spot for them. So, the idea is not completely foreign to me.

I take it you don't cover your brush piles then. How long do you dry them? Any particular time of year? What kind of wind speeds do you look for?

Forecasting wind direction is a bit tricky for me since many of my piles sit in a topographical depression but I will watch to see what I can do.

I would let mine dry a year or so. But it all depends on how much of an eyesore one can put up with. Brush piles have their benefits to the bird life too. Wind speeds ~10 mph. Like I said, it's tricky trying to avoid burning down the neighborhood. Late Spring when very dry is dangerous.

Chuckled reminiscing about our attempt to burn first year BT logs in newly purchased fire pit. Bust. Fortunately learned with current work encircling the pond to cut trees to ensure drop into marshy cattails rather than on land.

Re: garlic mustard. With the extended warm autumn discovered GM explosions in sunny to dappled areas heretofore untreated. Yes, glyphosate sprayed extensively during early November. Hopefully killed off that round of sprouts -- only 12+ years more seeds lie dormant.....

Sounds like we need a thread for garlic mustard.

I've been watching for garlic mustard in my 6 acre woods. Haven't see any yet, but another member of the mustard family raised it's ugly head last summer. I thought I had several nice new patches of Phlox throughout the woods, but this fall something didn't look right as the seed pods looked like garlic mustard and the leaves were elongated and green well into late fall. Turns out what I thought was Phlox is actually Dame's Rocket. Now I have another invasive on my list. I will attack by pulling when it blossoms, remove the plant material from the woods and dispose in the landfill. I'm concerned that there was a healthy seed bank left by last year's crop. Dame's Rocket is pretty to look at but from what I have read, is a nasty invasive in the mustard family that should not be left unattended.

I only burn in late summer. I find that any brush I cut through the end of May is ready to burn by the end of August. If there is grass growing around a brush pile I mow a 3 foot wide path around it all summer. As long as there hasn't been a drought, I can burn the brush pile in place without any worries, but still water it with a hose while burning to keep it from getting too hot.

It's easier to control the fire if the brush is placed in long narrow piles (10 ft wide at most) instead of a large circle. You light one end and let it it progress to the other end. I learned this the hard way last summer. I had a nice 20 ft diameter circular pile that I later threw a fallen cottonwood into. It went from a few embers to uncontrollable inferno with 30 ft high flames in about five minutes.

There's a guy a in my neighborhood who burns green brush year round, but he uses a ton of gasoline to do it.

@A B, I have Dame's Rocket too. Pulled some last fall, sprayed a little more, Also concerned about the seed bank.

Regarding burning green brush, gnomeabram, while I haven't done it in my woods in Wisconsin, I have at home. The key is having a hot base fire of dry wood, and throw it on a little at a time. I've done that with freshly dropped elm trees, knocked them down and completely burned them in a weekend. You can feed continuously, and it will take all you throw in, but don't smother it with a bunch all at once. With buckthorn, as twisty as it is, maybe best to use the lopper to reduce it down to single branches rather than a big, airy, tangled mess.

gnomeabram(SE Wisconsin 5B) - Am I correct to assume that neither you or your neighbor cover the tops of your piles to keep the rain off?

First I've heard of Dame's Rocket. To my knowledge have not spotted any here-- yet. Two informative articles, the first dating back to 2011 Michigan article "Public Enemy #2" [Note advice to beware wildflower seed mixes: Fuller said he often finds Dame’s Rocket seeds in the species mix of wildflowers offered for sale across the state. “Those ‘prairies in a can’ are wildflowers from somewhere, but not from the Midwest.”] and the second "Plants Gone Rogue" dated 2016.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2011/06/public_enemy_no_2_invasive_dam.html

http://www.appliedeco.com/dames-rocket/

To Pat & Bill Brown: I just saw your message, for some reason I did not receive notifications on the last couple posts. Anyway, I never cover brush piles and have never seen anyone else around here do so. From my experience anything that is piled up by the end of May is ready to burn by the beginning of August with a week of dry weather.

I seeded my "prairie" in late December with the seeds the need stratification. I broadcast the grass seeds in the beginning of March hoping that frost seeding will work. I put "prairie" in quotes since I also planted 100 pounds of tall fescue. My goal is simply to avoid it becoming a weedy mess (don't have the $$$ for a true prairie establishment), if prairie plants actually grow over time that will be a plus. Will post photos if/when things germinate. So far conditions have been ideal for frost seeding, but germination is still a few weeks away.

Hi gnomeabram, Haven't been on this thread in awhile either. Seems to have gone quiet perhaps for the season. I've been fairly busy through some of the winter though. Check out my buckthorn piles:

There are 17 of them.

I mostly cut and stacked these in December. I forget who or where I heard it but someone advised me to cover them. Perhaps, so they'd dry quicker and be easier to burn later in winter before snow melt. Well, it didn't work. These piles still aren't burning well and need more nursing than they're worth. I'll probably just let them go until there is a few inches of next year's snow on the ground. They should burn then I figure. The advantage of burning in the snow is that if there is 3" or more on the ground, you don't need a burn permit. Otherwise, technically I would for these size piles. If I know it would take another season to cure, I would definitely have skipped the cost and hassle of the plastic sheeting.

It recently occurred to me that what I had previously been thinking about as a woods is actually a degraded savanna. A number of open grown oaks became a woods when they filled in with boxelder and buckthorn. So, recently I've been considering restoring the savanna and have temporarily moved on to felling boxelders and dead oak branches. There are a lot more piles yet to come.

Haven't really looked at replanting yet. What kind of $$$ were you looking at for the "true prairie establishment" you mention above? You've got me concerned.

Those piles are pretty small compared to the ones I make. We are in a semi-rural area, and generally don't have to be worried about burn permits (technically it's required here too, but I've never gotten one). I would think covering the piles would only trap moisture in. Getting the moisture to escape from inside the green wood takes the most time, and for the most part doesn't happen during the winter. If you wait until next winter to burn it probably would be advantageous to cover the dried wood before it snows next fall so that you can burn them with snow on the ground.

As for cost of prairie restoration, seed mixes cost upwards of $1200 per acre, plus the cost to prepare the soil. That's not something I'm in the position to do right now, but I've had luck in the past just sprinkling seed sparingly on the ground in the fall and winter and having wildflowers and grass fill in over time. The freeze-thaw cycle of early spring helps to work the seed into the ground supposedly. I'm hoping for a repeat of that, but on a much larger scale (1.5-2 acres worth vs a few hundred square feet in the past). I spent about $400 on wildflower and grass seed so far.

$1,200/acre, ouch!

Regarding the brush piles, when I have burned buckthorn, it has been in smaller piles, and it required me to lop it into smaller pieces, otherwise too much space around the fuel. A good pair of bypass loppers makes short work of it. I use the Fiskars geared loppers.

I had a 50' long pile of well dried downed wood and pine boughs a few years ago. I started at the down wind end and worked my way up by dowsing it with kerosene/fuel oil in spots. If i had started on the up wind end, it would have created a conflagration that would have brought out the fire dept.

bill_g_wisconsin(Zone 3) I agree about there being too much space between the wood, at least in its current flammability status. I have used loppers on the top and I've jumped up and down on all of them. Someone advised running a chainsaw through the piles but I've been hesitant to try that. If you were to lop more thoroughly, would you do it as is or would you pull the piles apart, lop and rebuild? Frankly, I'm hoping if I leave it alone and come back next fall when the wood is drier that it won't be a problem. Your thoughts?

dandy_line(3B (Northern, Mn)) Based upon your report, it doesn't seem spacing was problem at time of burning. What did you do, if anything, to compact your piles?

To gnomeabram: With as miserable a 'spring' upper Midwest experiencing, would tall fescue seeding work if disseminated once forecast devoid of snowfall?

Pat & Bill Brown, I haven't burned a lot of buckthorn, but when I have, it was my opinion that the fuel density wasn't high enough to support combustion. Those darned branches are so tangled up. I lopped and lopped, until it was greatly reduced. Then, I scooped it up and threw it in the fire pit. I'd probably rebuild the pile next to where you have it now. Use your best scouting skills to build it in a way that it will burn. Kindling on the bottom, plenty of good dry trunk wood for fuel for the main fire, and you may wind up standing by it throwing smaller twigs on top as you lop them. It has been my experience that with a decent fire with enough fuel, it will take the twigs and slash as fast as you can lop them and throw them in a good open flame.

Tom's considering strategic BT bramble lightening rod placement. :)

terrineff: I sure hope so! We've had a lot of days above freezing and nights below freezing since I broadcast the seed on March 2nd, which has resulted in a lot of frost heave at the surface. We got a few inches of snow the day after I broadcast, but only about a half an inch of precip the rest of the month. I'm contemplating putting down another 50 pounds of tall fescue or perennial rye once ideal germination conditions appear imminent. The ground is completely bare so seed/soil contact isn't an issue.

What brand tall fescue did you purchase? Upon researching seems would be excellent option for our naturalscape slopes.

Based on price only, I bought DLF K31 from Tractor Supply: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dlf-kentucky-31-tall-fescue-50-lb?rfk=1

Hey bill_g_wisconsin(Zone 3), I purchased those Fiskars ratchet loppers you recommended but the anvil variety for breaking down brush to burn. Am quite happy I did. Worth the $50 and more to me. Thanks much for the useful tip!!

Avoid using glyphosate and related products:

for french reader, glyphosate has a deep impact on your health and your pet's health: http://www.infosglyphosate.com/category/risques-sanitaires/

but hopefully there are alternative ways to get rid off weeds:

for pros: https://youtu.be/Cn5S9TiDcBI

and https://positivr.fr/desherbant-eau-chaude-alternative-glyphosate/

for private gardenners:

http://www.infosglyphosate.com/les-desherbeurs-thermiques-une-alternative-ecologique-au-glyphosate/

God bless you

Hey, Pat & Bill Brown... you had mentioned trying the "Green Weeder" https://www.smuckermfg.net/green-weeder-product-page  Did you have any luck with that? Does anybody know of something similar, only with two pads that press together? I've got so many seedlings that are probably too thin to get wet by brushing a single pad against them, but if I could grab between two pads, I could make some pretty good tracks. Tried pulling seedlings today, and they kicked my butt.

Edit: Might have found exactly what I was looking for. https://www.mipn.org/clampertool/

Hey bill_g_wisconsin(Zone 3), Yes, I like the green-weeder. You have a lot of control over flow rate with the wand. For little ones, I'd have it just short of dripping and I think it'd work though I hadn't really used on that size much. Used more on 1/4 to 1/2" diameter stubs as a basal bark rub. I want them gone, so I cut them first with a brush cutter and had someone followed me with the green weeder attached to a backpack sprayer. I have analyzed closely but looks like we had a pretty good kill rate. Lots of black stubs everywhere.

The reason I had mentioned this to you is that it seems similar to what you were doing with the wand and rags and triclopyr/diesel fuel mix but it offers more control. If it works for your small ones, I suspect it would be quicker than the clampertool you linked to. Though I appreciate knowing about this tool as well and bookmarked it. Let me know how you like it as you use it.

If you buy the green weeder and use it with an oil mixture, you'll have to massage and pamper that sponge awhile when first using it to get it to behave properly. It didn't really work for us until the second day.

By the way, now that I've cut down all my plants, I've been advised by various pros to mow, approximately now through sometime in June for strongest impact. Next herbicide application will be in the fall.

To Bill_G: Relieved to see thread resumed. It's been challenging spring. Appears very little of my fall foliar spraying effective -- significant resprout of BT cut & treated first year using sub-optimal glyphosate concentration. Seeds themselves have not proved much of an issue. Instead two nemesis sallied to forefront: garlic mustard in areas excavated for highway widening prior to lot purchase and worse, Canary Reed Grass.

Quite interested in purchasing Clamper Tool to deal with massive headache of CRG invading no-mow fescue. To date clump spraying or labor-intensive dabbing individual blades with glyphosate effective but this spring CRG erupted with a vengeance en masse in several new areas. Without ability to realistically spot-treat only solution I see is kill it off along with no-mow fescue on south side of the house, then start over next year. Any advice from the group sincerely appreciated.

Just got back from my property, terrineff, looking it over to gauge the amount of work for this spring and summer. A significant crop of baby buckthorn seedlings. There are a few yearlings that I missed last year, as well, and probably some bigger ones that I haven't seen.

Regarding the clamper tool, I heard from the author of the article, and the clamper tool is a DIY thing. He says it is pretty easy - remove the suction cups, and replace with 2-1/2" PVC pipe caps that have been cut shorter. Uae a square sponge and stuff in pipe caps. I ordered the 40" size grips rather than the shorter ones that they had, thinking it gives me a little more reach radius. It has not arrived yet.

My plan right now is to mix a smaller load of triclopyr/diesel in the backpack, use on any larger buckthorns that I find, and use it also to replenish the sponges to use the clamper on all the little sprouts.

Regarding the reed canary grass... last fall, after most everything went dormant, the canary grass was still pretty green. I put glyphosate in the backpack and just broadcast sprayed. While I was discouraged last year, this spring, the stuff that I sprayed did not come back. I need to make a pass now to catch all the stuff I missed, then rake it or burn it, and get it ready to replant with a short prairie mix.

Bill_G: Amending post based Clamper contact person reply. Told not commercially available; let us know your experience once arrives. Worst of CRG appeared where battled sedge for two years, filled cartons and cartons dead Sedgehammer-treated material which allowed CRG to explode. (Apparently nearly all fescue seeded mid-November under steep slope mat washed away.)

Also must update "...seeds not much of an issue" comment. Ventured into wetland buffer zone not visible from house to treat resprout = greeted by major sapling explosion. At this time of year what do you recommend as effective glyphosate concentration? If fescue area, Triclopyr and/ or 2,4-D at what %?

Terrineff-For saplings, I used 2-4-d at 5 to 10%. I suggest you have a mask on when doing it, and in low wind conditions. Hit the new leaf growth. May is the best time to do this as the natives know better than to stick their heads out of the ground until June or later.

For Canary Reed Grass, I had the luxury of being able to burn off the old growth in Spring and then when the new growth come up, about 6 to 12", slam it with Glyphosate, about 10% solution or so. The native grasses were not up yet so there was no residual damage using this method.

Since burning is not an option for you, then mowing should work, either in Fall or else early Spring. It should take a few years or so to totally erraticate, I think.

Thought I would post an update on my post-buckthorn recovery efforts (prior updates can be found earlier in this thread). On March 2nd I broadcast 85 pounds of K-31 tall fescue, and a few pounds of prairie grasses on the entire area, based on the concept of "frost seeding". The weather worked very much to my advantage over the next month and a half, with several snowfalls as well as many days above freezing and nights below freezing. This really worked the seed into the ground with no additional effort on my part. My only concern with the late start to spring was the possibility of a lot of the seed being eaten by mice, turkeys, etc. I decided to spread the remaining K-31 (15 pounds) as well as 50 pounds of perennial rye on May 1st as there was a long-duration rain event in the forecast followed by warmer weather. By May 10th there was a green cast to the entire area. It really started to take off during the hot weather of the past week and a half. I'm very happy with the results so far, the only downside being an explosion of garlic mustard, which I wasn't expecting (but probably should have). My plan is to let it go this summer and mow it when it blooms next spring. I also have some prairie flower seed mixed in and hope some of it emerges over time. Here are some before and after pictures.

Awesome!

Congrats!

To gnomeabram: Ah, garlic mustard, seems bumper crop this year. Do you plan to spot spray? I've been applying 2,4-D using Hudson battery-powered Insta-Spray. Were I inventive, believe designing foam or other material 'sleeve' to slip over the curved tip end of identical model used for glyphosate application would allow direct contact with CRG blades and minimize collateral herbicide damage. Anyone have a clever suggestion?

I'm hoping not to spray anything this summer unless an area becomes totally consumed by weeds. My goal is to wage a war of attrition on the the GM by mowing it before it can re seed, I think that's the only realistic way to avoid collateral damage.

On a positive note, I've seen very little of the buckthorn seedlings re sprout. The 30 gallons or so of triclopyr/24d I sprayed last summer seems to have really been effective. Hopefully the grass can become established before the seed bank wakes up.

"War of Attrition" is my strategy with garlic mustard as well. Only am using a brush cutter at the moment for greater specificity.

Packed four wine shippers w/ Canadian goldenrod & GM pulled by hand on slopes where county planted a few wildflower clumps & viburnums post-highway widening. With size of our property, hand-pulling not viable plan. Yes, county's annual 'plant and pray' fescue seed drop in highway boulevard is no plan. First Creeping Charlie showed up in that vicinity = sprayer in service. Neighbor asked if I'd come in contact with supposedly present poison ivy. Internet PI photos don't appear something I've encountered; are others finding it prevalent? On positive note, first year our pond encircled by lovely lily water colonies. Wonder if clearing out all that buckthorn pollution altered (i.e., improved) the aquatic ecosystem.

Well, I finished modifying the 40" EZ Reacher to go after buckthorn saplings. With a scissors, I cut a couple of aerosol can caps down to about a half inch thick. I drilled a hole in the center, and bolted the little cups on in place of the EZ Reacher's little suction cups. Really simple to do. I cut a sponge into two circles, a little larger diameter than the cups, stuffed them into the cups and wired them place with a straightened out paper clip. The idea is to saturate the sponges with triclopyr/oil and wipe the trunks of the saplings. They could also be soaked with glyphosate or 2,4-D and used to wipe the leaves. Maybe I'll try both. It will get a test this weekend. I'll post an update on how it works.

The thing is really light to carry, and seems like it ought to work well. I'll probably also carry the Fiskars lopper and a sponge tipped applicator with full strength glyphosate and a little blue dye.

If anyone wants to try this, I'd suggest Gorilla taping the two halves of the handle together first. It seems to want to pop apart pretty easily.

On another note, my neighbor just posted a picture of several large wagon loads of wild parsnip that she pulled, with plenty more to go. She said that it grew in much, much thicker than last year. If my property is loaded, too, it is a higher priority than buckthorn saplings. Damn!

@ terrineff, if you have not seen poison ivy, once you see it for the first time, you will recognize it forever after. The shape of the leaves remind me of Boxelder leaves, but they are darker green and look like they have a coat of wax on them. Sometimes online, they show it growing in vines. I've never, ever, seen that in MN. Usually they are just a foot or so tall, and grow along the edges. It is pretty easy to get rid of with 2,4-D and dish soap or some kind of surfactant to wet the leaves. Whatever you do, DO NOT burn it!

To bill_g_wisconsin: See EZ-Reacher for sale online, having difficulty picturing how you intend to utilize. Need to carry herbicide to continuously dip sponges? Perhaps could attach photo of your device. Bought cosmetic sponges for my 'innovation' attempt -- affix atop Insta-Spray tip to hopefully absorb herbicide when power activated, then dab wet sponge onto CRG blades. Will let you know if works.

My issues besides CRG? Yellow nutsedge explosion, Black Medic infestation on sunny north slope where fescue is challenged, and the usual suspects though GM relatively under control. Winning the battle in limited areas such as NE slope beyond seeded yard.

@ terrineff, going to have to figure out about the juice on the sponges. From what the person in Michigan said, you don't have to apply it too often, as it is really efficient with its use. I'm visualizing starting out carrying a quart and see how far it goes. Initially intending to pour it on each sponge as necessary. Not sure if I'll have a chance this weekend - the report from neighbors is that I will be really busy with the parsnips, which have an urgency to them because they are in full bloom which means seeds soon if I don't whack them now. Also, playing music at the Pipe Dream Center there Saturday night, and it is always embarrassing going in there with blue dye all over. LOL

No update this week on the EZ Reacher mods. I didn't get to try it out..

The wild parsnips were a higher priority as some of the flowers were already turning to seed. Pulled about 1000 of them, bagged the flowers, cut the roots off, and cut the stems up. Avoiding the sun for a week or so. Gloves were soaked. I hope it was perspiration, not parsnip juice! My neighbor next door pulled about 3 trailer loads at their place, and the neighbor across the road has nothing growing in their ditch besides parsnips. Arrghh!

If anyone ever tells you that 2,4-D takes them out when sprayed in the late fall, don't believe them. I sprayed the snot out of them last fall, and the fairly small area that I sprayed had by far the most bolted plants this year, maybe 500 of them. So, 2,4-D is a fail. The noxious weed specialist in a northern MN county that has an awful problem told me that the herbicide "Escort" has been about 95% effective for them, when sprayed after this years' bolts turn brown.

To bill_g_wisconsin: Whew-- thought I'd found wild parsnip patch but fortunately not it. I see Escort is branded formulation methylsulfuron-methyl. Ordered MSM granules last year for goldenrod but found 2,4-D and even foot-stomping at base effective so never reconstituted. Let us know how well MSM works on WP.

Experiencing issues with GreenShoots dispenser. Pump action gone on the one used 2017, a new one never 'foamed' from start. Did you experience degradation of ability to dispense foam and/or plunger sticking in depressed position? Think use of Alligare surfactant rather than their Blue Foaming Agent contributed to eventual pump failure?

@ terrineff haven't had a problem so far, using my own surfactant as well as theirs, but I haven't yet tried it this year. I was wishing I had it here today, going after the goldenrod in my prairie grass, but the dispenser is up at the lake. Probably will bring it home this weekend. I noticed that the area where I blobbed a little glyphosate foam on the goldenrod last year is almost devoid of goldenrod this year.

Where did you buy your MSM? It seems really expensive, but a little goes a long way.

I might try 2,4-D on the goldenrod with the EZ Reacher. I did find some buckthorn in my yard today, so can give the reacher a go right here at home.

You might try calling the guy who makes the GreenShoots product. He lives in St. Paul. I've met him, and he seems like a good guy. He might have some insights.

Battle continues. Recently lopping and treating immature females that hid in plain sight. Seems only fruit upon reaching sufficient age/ size. Tom cut down female box elder in wetland buffer and argh -- came in covered with bur seeds. Been maintaining visible portion of buffer rather well but had no idea virtual explosion of gnarlys hidden by goldenrod. Can anyone identify culprit pictured? Full grown it can reach 4-5'. Bad year for spiders too, suffered bites under clothing despite using Off! Time to try Deep Woods formula unless a better recommendation. Thanks.

Need a pic of the basal leaves, but it could be Geum canadense, a native that produces gobs of ticks that will stick to clothing, even skin. I pull them up all summer long before they start clinging to me. Take a good look at that plant so you can identify it in the future and remove before it forms those ticks.

Wow...seeing that picture was like deja vu for me...you only have a few leaves in the picture, but it sure looks a lot like Hackelia to me.

Hackelia is a biennial, my post-buckthorn yard is full of the first-year basal version. I asked about it on the "name that plant" forum, since the basal version looks an awful like echinechia. Luckily I found a second year plant a few weeks later that made it possible to positively identify it. https://www.houzz.com/discussions/weed-id-pleaseconeflower-lookalike-dsvw-vd~5370485?n=30

I've got a bunch of the same stuff growing. Tough to pick those ticks.

For the bugs, try permethrin. I buy it on Amazon, 36% concentrated. Mix it down to 1/2%, and spray it on your clothes - saturate them, and let them dry. It is good for 5 or 6 washings. But keep it away from cats. If you have bare arms, you will still need the repellant.

Also, for clothing, you could try military surplus ripstop BDU pants. Nice, light but very strong fabric, dries quickly, and here's the key, they have a ribbon on the bottom to tie the cuffs around your ankles. Also, plenty of pockets. I found some to fit me at McGuires Army Navy online.

Bingo. Hackelia virginiana. Being biennial, no wonder totally missed its 2017 growth in newly-cleared BT area. Few weeks ago cut seeding plants on west slope at base and direct-applied glyphosate. Multiple cartons boxed for trash disposal. Now that I know first year specimen (row 3, second from right link below) guess what I treated today? 2,4-D is listed as effective -- what's been your experience?

BTW, Tom gave permission to admit he was wearing shorts and had to resort to cutting off leg hair to remove hundreds of gnarly burs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hackelia+virginiana&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=otyxQ4Zth8wTPM%253A%252CFnY-IFcWcrIM8M%252C_&usg=AFrqEzd2JZJePR5Rt3O-TA8HdbrgdANN7A&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjekdG0w9jcAhUO-lQKHeckD6UQ_h0wDXoECAoQDw#imgrc=_

We're sold on Insect Shield for tick, mosquito, and other insect repellent. If you don't know about it yet, I recommend you check it out: https://www.insectshield.com/Default.aspx

Much of slideshow old news to this group but worth a glance: https://eminnetonka.com/images/projects/Natural%20Resources/naturalresources/InvasiveWeedsSlideshowJune2015.pdf

Pat & Bill Brown, yes, that is the 1/2% permethrin I mentioned. And, it really works! Great choice! It doesn't just repel the ticks, mosquitos and flies, it kills them.

I am out in the woods and weeds a lot, and am living with the after effects of 20 years of untreated lyme disease, so I spray my clothes regularly. Instead of buying 6 ounces of 1/2% solution for $9.99, I buy a quart of 36.9% solution for $23.00. It makes 74 quarts (about 2,360 ounces) of 1/2%, and lasts me several years. That treats a lot of clothing!

Permethrin is a synthetic form of pyrethrum, which is made from chrysanthemum flowers. Pyrethrum is the white dust that you puff on broccoli, etc., to keep the aphids and cabbage worms off. Permethrin is what is used in flea and tick collars for dogs. Cats can have seizures from it, but it is not harmful to humans. They say to not spray it on your skin, only because the oils in your skin break it down quickly, making it ineffective. I find that spraying it on my hat helps with some of the circling bugs, too.

bill_g_wisconsin, Sounds like you're familiar but just in case, Insect Shield benefits are that the permethrin is permanently integrated into the material.

• you don't need to muck with spraying
• you don't have to worry about missing any spots on your clothing
• basically lasts the life of the garment
• doesn't come off onto your skin or the environment

Sorry to hear you have Lyme's. I'm sure I don't need to tell you it's a terrible affliction.

I'll read up on the insectShield. It is nice that it lasts a good long time.

The lyme disease is past tense - I got it when I was 16, had it treated when I was 36, and am now 66. So all that is left is the arthritis and the stainless steel replacement body parts.

Here is my August update (see June 2nd reply for previous update): My frost seeded tall fescue and perennial rye has done very well this summer, which has featured warm temps and a good amount of well-timed precipitation. Unfortunately I've seen very little in the way of prairie flowers or grass from the $200 worth of seed I broadcast last winter. A lot of garlic mustard and Hackelia virginiana sprouted along with the grass and I was planning on dealing with it next spring when it flowered. However, while surveying the area a few weeks ago I discovered an explosion of crown vetch. I thought I had finished it off last year with 24d and triclopyr but it seems to have just laughed that off. I knew I had to mow it ASAP and considered renting a Billy Goat brush cutter from HD. That proved to be infeasible, but my research uncovered what turned out to be the perfect solution: a walk behind line trimmer. It set me back about $350 with 300 ft of line but after about 11 hours of work over 5 days I was able to mow the entire yard. It made short work of the biennial weeds and stray buckthorn seedlings as well. The only downside is hitting all of the old buckthorn stumps hidden under the grass is kind of unnerving and causes the line to wear prematurely, but its pretty cheap stuff and easy to replace. Over time I hope periodic mowing will kill off the crown vetch, but I've given up on the idea of establishing a prairie for the time being.

In weird way your experience actually encouraging that "Rome is not built in a day". Many comments to post but hour is late and shoulder sore from yesterday's goldenrod cut-and-bag.

My take on trying to establish "wild flowers" in the raw is: The weeds always win.!

I went thru all the gyrations 15 years ago and my method now is to start the seeds in prepared beds, or indoors. Only then do they get out into the wild where they have to fight it out with the ever present weeds, but also with the their fellow thugish "natives".

Some species that are easy to become established are: Bee Balm, Yellow Primrose (Oenethera), Rudbeckia, Aster, Cup Plant, Tall Correopsys. I'm sure there are many more.

But-never plant Sun Flower!

Stiff sunflower and Canada goldenrod took over my prairie area. I do have other flowers in there, such as wild bergamot and golden alexander, but it is hard to find them through the 7 foot tall sunflowers! I've been manually pulling the goldenrod, which seems to make room for more sunflowers. I suppose they have to go next. One of the highlights is the 9 or 10 foot tall cup plant that I planted as a plug. It took a number of years to establish, and had to spray it with Ropel in the spring to keep deer from eating it for a few years, but it is doing well now!

That walk-behind string trimmer sounds like a good idea, and might help with the occasional burning required - cut it first, then burn the piles.

gnomeabram, if this the first year after seeding, what you are seeing is normal. It takes a little while to establish. What is fun is that every year comes up a little differently. One year, it will be loaded with black-eyed susans, the next year the bergamot, and something else after that. Have patience.

Edit: After looking at pictures of stiff sunflower, I decided that is NOT what is taking over my prairie area. What is taking it over is cut-leaf coneflowers. They have an amazing number of flowers, and the whole area is now yellow. Some are approaching 8 ft. tall. Not sure whether I need to thin these out or not. Right now, they are loaded with honeybees and lots of other kinds of pollinators.

Thanks for the words of encouragement! Bee Balm is actually the one wildflower I could identify in the field - but it was completely surrounded by crown vetch so it had to succumb to the mower. It would be a nice surprise if some coneflowers or black eyed susans make an appearance next year, but there's no evidence of them sprouting so far so I'll temper any expectations. As long as I can keep the weeds in check with the trim mower I'll be a happy camper.

Time to join the conversation. Crown vetch issue first season after fescue seeded but now rare. 2018 brought bumper crop of black medic and yellow foxtail. Happy to report Spectracide Weed Stop or much less expensive (from concentrate) Q-4 Plus Turf Herbicide effective against both. Recently stumbled across 9-leaf-per-branch shrub-looking plants. Oops, identified as invasive Japanese knotweed. More tri & gly. Cut, boxed, and stem-treated Hackelia until seed burs too nasty to box (three pairs socks, one pair shoes trashed), then spray & pray.

gnomeabram , Tom bought GreenWorks G-Max lithium battery powered line trimmer; is that what you're using? As fescue should not be mowed during hot weather has proved effective way to trim seed heads and weed grasses while maintaining yard aesthetics.

Photo taken last August. Bramble pile UR is buckthorn. We "inherited" the wildflowers, quite weed free, while to left dense BT thicket. Suspect when city removed section of BT gain access to lake system drainage pipe the neighbor (we are first resident owners of property) seeded wildflower mix. No other area on grounds look like anything like this. Ray of hope?

terrineff, good to hear your crown vetch declined so quickly, mine was such a thick carpet I can only hope for similar results. My tool of choice is the "Remington 22-Inch 159cc Gas Wheeled String Trimmer Lawn Mower" and spool of Cyclone .155" line from Amazon. I also have an Echo PAS brush cutter and weed-wacker attachment, but I probably would have killed it (and myself) using it on this scale (about 2 acres to mow)

Hello. Hopeful knowledgeable people can identify plants photographed today on our property. [Attempt to attach 7 returned error message so split into two posts.] #1 pink blossoms,new in 2018 (cranberry viburnum behind). #2 stood 5-6' until flowers overweighted. #3 grows along shady perimeter of male BT thicket (future project, females cut). #4 small example of 9-leafed branches projecting off central woody stem also appeared this year.

Part two. Is #5 first-year stickweed (sandwiched between motherwort and BT? #s 6 & 7 taken three city blocks apart -- either or both poison ivy? I was able to identify band of white snakeroot in bloom for the first time on my own. :) Many thanks in advance.

Hi. It would help to get close ups of the flowers, but, my guesses:

1. Obedient plant

2. Sunflower

3. Lobelia syphilittica

4.. Asian honeysuckle

5. ?

6/7-definitely P.I.

IMHO the natives would be nice to have. What's P.I.?

Poison Ivy. DRATS! Dandy_line, what's your top herbicide recommendation to take out PI?

Poison Ivy control is just more of the same old. I'm now thinking of a 2-4-d + Glyphosate cocktail. I still have it everywhere on my property.

I read PI native to MN oak savannas and woodlands, is beneficial to soil conditions. Will spot treat to eradicate site #1, restrict migration into boulevard strip of decomposing leaf mat on western edge of property #2. As both sites feature mature trees will default to 2,4-D first rather than triclopyr (Ortho Poison Ivy Killer 0.7%) or glyphosate. Learned couple interesting facts:

Songbirds: Notably bluebirds, goldfinches, warblers and woodpeckers --which are bountiful here --eat the grayish-white [PI] berries poisonous to humans,

Goat Tidbit: Goats and sheep acclimated to feed on poison ivy can be used to reduce large populations. Grazing by goats has been shown to be useful in forested areas where hard to use equipment. LA's Getty Center initially used goats for underbrush control on their steep slopes but the goats proved too effective, essentially clear-cut which caused severe erosion during inaugural winter rainy season. Bye, bye goats.

When I bought this house a long time ago, the yard was full of PI. I just used 2,4-D and a wetting agent, killed it quick, and hasn't come back. Some folks say they have better luck with the glyphosate, but it will kill anything in the area that is still green. I have not tried Escort, but that is supposed to be an excellent selective broadleaf killer. Just guessing that a good wetting agent is key with those waxy leaves.

Re: "I read PI native to MN oak savannas and woodlands, is beneficial to soil conditions. ..... Learned couple interesting facts: Songbirds: Notably bluebirds, goldfinches, warblers and woodpeckers --which are bountiful here --eat the grayish-white [PI] berries poisonous to humans,"

Good to know PI is also constructive.

Yes. Will contain spread from treed western slopes we never tread on and let songbirds feast now that most buckthorn berries gone. :)

bill_g_wisconsin : Thanks for surfactant tip. I've neglected to add to Q-4 Turf dilution of late.

It's always something..... http://www.grandforksherald.com/business/agriculture/4491458-palmer-amaranth-found-north-dakota-and-group-effort-needed-control-weed

Has anyone found a surfactant/adjuvant for triclopyr4 + water that they are particularly happy with?

Weed-Dweeb me admits glad someone resumed autumn BT thread. As our property not basal bark tmt candidate, purchased Triclopyr 3 not 4. Has worked well for buckthorn, box elder, broadleaf weed eradication in areas not in immediate proximity to established trees. Use Alligare brand surfactant. Today's 80' + no wind allowed foliar spraying of buckthorn saplings, motherwort, first-year stickweed and more. Very curious to hear others seasonal observations.

If you live near a Tractor Supply, I've been happy with this stuff: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/farmworks-80-20-surfactant-1-gal?cm_vc=-10005

I think all commercial surfactants are essentially the same, just dish soap without the suds.

I decided to try the herbicide Milestone to deal with my crown vetch problem, and am very happy so far. Mixing at a rate of just 6 milliliters per gallon (measured with a syringe), after a couple of weeks its all shriveled up while the surrounding grass is completely untouched. Much better than triclopyr, which in my experience nukes grass nearly as badly as glyphosate. Milestone I guess has a 2-3 year residual, so I won't be expecting any prairie flowers for a while but I can live with that. I'm thinking of using it for the lawn to get rid of creeping charlie, if we can get some some dry weather before winter sets in.

I had about a half gallon left over at the end of spraying the crown vetch and used it on a "wall" of buckthorn that exists on one of my property lines. I'll report back next year if it had any effect.

I wonder about MSO (methylated seed oil) as a surfactant. It mixes well with water, and wets pretty well. When I've talked with the county folks who have been battling wild parsnips with Milestone or Escort, that is the surfactant that they recommend.

gnomeabram, for what it is worth, when those County folks want the residual, they use Milestone and Escort mixed. When they don't want the residual, such as for areas with ladyslipper flowers, they just use Escort.

Getting ready to take a shot at Charlie myself. A herbicide rep told me that a very effective blend is about 2 ounces per gallon of Weed Free Zone, with one ounce of Triclopyr. He used MSO as a surfactant, if I remember right. I'll give it a try, but wonder if anything short of nuclear war can kill off Creeping Charlie.

To bill_g: Posted 7/3/17. Experiencing success using my 'standard Creeping Charlie mix': 1% Triclopyr-4 / 1% 2,4-D / 0.5% surfactant / Bayer Advanced All-in-One Lawn Weed & Crabgrass Killer concentrate diluted 0.4 cup to one gallon water. Mix allows me to be ready for most anything (except sedge of course) while safely allowing fescue growth.

2018 Mix evolved to 1% Triclopyr-4 / 1% 2,4-D / 0.5% surfactant / Q4 Plus Turf Herbicide concentrate diluted 2.5-oz. to one gallon water. Single treatment effective, even heretofore "untamed" area disturbed by road construction and bordering neighbor doing zero weed control. Bonus is Q4 also effective against yellow nutsedge = no need to rework area using Sedgehammer sprayer.

Thanks to those of you that responded to my above question about a surfactant/adjuvant for triclopyr + water! As a disclaimer, except for stump treating buckthorn with triclopyr last year, herbicides are all quite new to me. I regret not taking that biochem class in high school. Not wanting to remain ignorant, I did some more research and found some helpful articles. If you too have interest, you could try:

https://extension.psu.edu/adjuvants-for-enhancing-herbicide-performance

http://psep.cce.cornell.edu/facts-slides-self/facts/gen-peapp-adjuvants.aspx

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd496999.pdf

To bill_g_wisconsin, MSO is mentioned as a common surfactant. They fit into a class based on concentrated vegetable oils and used in the following products:CLASS Destiny
(methyl soybean)
Cenex/Land O'Lakes
Dyne-Amic (silicone methyl vegetable)
Helena
Meth Oil (methyl soybean)
Riverside/Terra
MSO
Loveland Industries
Sun-It/Scoil (methyl vegetable)
Agsco

In fact, DOW builds them right into Garlon4.

My local store rep, suggested I use bark oil if I have it already. I'd guess this is similar. Apparently, these oils assist with penetration of the waxy protective sheath on the leaf's surface.

I've learned that there are many types of adjuvants but that the surfactant type most commonly suggested for triclopyr is a nonionic surfactant (NIS) and that there are just a few of type of these that are common. Apparently, these are typically wetters-spreaders and most are quite similar as stated by gnomeabram(SE Wisconsin 5B) above. Not living near a Tractor Supply as mentioned by gnomeabram(SE Wisconsin 5B), I finally opted for the generic Alligare NIS "Alligare 90" as most likely mentioned by terriniff above.

I wonder if it would be a good idea to use both the bark oil and the Alligare 90. Any thoughts appreciated.

terrineff,

When you say: "Charlie mix': 1% Triclopyr-4 / 1% 2,4-D / 0.5% surfactant / Bayer Advanced All-in-One Lawn Weed & Crabgrass Killer concentrate diluted 0.4 cup to one gallon water."

Is the Bayer Advanced All-in-One Lawn Weed & Crabgrass Killer concentrate an additional component or is it what you are using as your surfactant or is it the trade name for the ingredients that precede it? Ditto for the Q4 Plus Turf Herbicide concentrate in your 2018 mix. If additional ingredients, what's the percent dilution?

General Question:

If a recipe calls for a certain percentage of an active ingredient but that percentage is only part of the product, does one use the percentage of the product or the active ingredient?

For example: If a recipe calls for 1% 2, 4-D and my bottle of 2, 4-D says it is only 50% 2, 4-D and 50% other stuff, do I use 1 gallon or 2 gallons of the 2, 4-D product in 100 gallons of my final spray mix?

1. Yes-you need to do the math so that 100% of the chem is in the solution. Since all commercial products have a different % along with water, there cannot be a single standard except to mean that the undiluted concentration be used. So, we must have to do the math.
2. For example: If the formula calls for 1% 2-4-d in a gallon of water, then that would mean 128x.01 = 1.28 oz of 100% 2-4-d. But my container of 2-4-d is only 40% so I need approx 3 oz (3x.4 = 1.2 oz). Since the percentage specified is only a guestimate at best, rounding up /down is permitted to come to a useful answer.

Browns: Yes, Bayer All-in-One or Q4 Plus but one component of the final broad spectrum mix; 2.5-oz Q4. added to one gallon water also containing, by dilution, 1% Triclopyr-4 / 1% 2,4-D / 0.5% Alligare surfactant. No issue mixing components or maintaining in solution.

Re-read 100K blog from its beginning. Packed with excellent information, links, photos, success stories. Fun to read my personal accounts of progress 2014-17. Hoped to 'come out of the blocks' killing buckthorn this fall but unfortunately weather not cooperating --- rain, rain, rain.

Our other fall project is planting 1' - 2' bare root shade trees, ideally Northern Catalpa, hackberry, Kentucky coffeetree, magnolias, hickory, sugar and Korean maples, perhaps buckeye or Eastern redbud. Does anyone have experience with WI's Reeseville Ridge Nursery? Any additional recommendation for rapid growers from bare root? Thanks!

Yes-I have gone back and re-read some of it too. And you have been a great contributer along the way.

Good tree candidates all. I love the blossoms on Catalpa and Ohio Buckeye. I got some volunteer Buckeyes from my neighbor and the growth is phenomenal-at least 2.5' per year when watered well.

Thanks for endorsement of Ohio buckeye. We saw mature examples at Chanhassen Arboretum, was not certain sufficiently fast grower. Were I younger, wouldn't be an issue....

Re: terrineff "Hoped to 'come out of the blocks' killing buckthorn this fall but unfortunately weather not cooperating --- rain, rain, rain." I coomiserate. Am waiting to spray buckthorn leaves on plants cut last winter and mowed early summer.

Current intentions include triclopyr 4 and 2, 4-D mixture. I've been advised by Steve at Hugo Feed Mill advises an 8 hr window of dryness (since he sold me the amine form of 2, 4-D, Would need less for ester.) and lows above 45 degrees.

I'm guessing that the temp constraint has more to do with leaf vitality and acceptance rather than herbicide condition but I neglected to ask.

Though things should dry out starting tomorrow lows are forecast to remain in the mid 30s and below for the 10 day forecast.

Do you agree with these constraints?

My research found foliar application temps ideally 53'-77' for glyphosate, 65'-85' for 2,4-D. Did not find specific temperature range for triclopyr 4 though if plant not actively growing, negligible herbicide uptake by foliage. Note statement on fall applications; i.e., uptake mainly by roots:

https://www.techlinenews.com/herbicides/herbicideperformance2014

Thanks terrineff, read the article and happy to be introduced to this website. I plan to study much of it.

When does anyone think buckthorn stops growing actively in twin cities area? If the leaves are still green, does it mean it's actively growing?

Not sure 65-85 degrees is in the cards this year yet but I am seeing upper 50s by the end of next week. Will go for as warm as I can.

I've recently embarked on another buckthorn removal project, this time at my mother's house. I decided to try out the Weed Wand Magic applicator for applying glyphosate to cut stumps under 2", and so far am very happy with it for this purpose. What sets it apart from similar devices like the Buckthorn Blaster is the easily-actuated valve that dispenses the liquid into the sponge. With the BB you always have to press HARD to get the valve to open up, which results in quick destruction of the dispenser and sponge if you happen to misjudge your target. I've done several hundred buckthorn stumps so far with the WWM and the sponge still looks as good as new.

There are only a couple of caveats I've found: For stumps over 2" it's still faster to use a disposable sponge brush, but luckily I don't encounter many of those since I removed the mature trees 10 years ago. Also, you have to store the device upside down, mine spills about a teaspoon of liquid per day if I forget.

I purchased mine at Forestry Suppliers: https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/products.php?mi=69081&itemnum=18022&redir=Y

Glad to see thread resumed. Hoped to find WWM use video online but only photos. As I'm relegated to lopping or sawing, how handy would usage at waist height be? Spent time yesterday reviewing blog % conc. herbicide recommendations for stumps / "woody' 2'-4' (diameter 1/4'-1") / foliar / saplings. Seems @ 55' too cold for 2,4-D. Settled on 8-10% glyphosate or 5-8% triclopyr for foliar. Feedback? Also what's proven most effective to finally defeat hydras sprouting at base of otherwise "dead" 2'-3' stumps?

Sunday spot sprayed 1'-2' saplings in wetland buffer. As reached zone adjacent to swamp grassland stumbled upon motherload field of first-year stickweed. Thanks for identifying 8/5 burs photo query, immediately knew dealing with Heckelia. Wonder how well glyphosate will take out but at least now know where to monitor for further 'explosions'.

Found this cute little gem blooming in area we suspect seeded with wildflowers. An idea as to its identity?

Rudbeckia triloba, aka Brown Eyed Susan. Save the seeds for next year. Set pot w/seeds under snow in Feb or Mar. Transplant to a remote spot with good soil and water., sun A biennial, it will surprise you with , maybe, 1000 blooms in 2020.

@ gnomeabram, I like the Weed Wand, too. The great thing is that a person doesn't need to bend over to use it. I broke the applicator end, and the manufacturer sent one to me right away. Great customer service!

To dandy_line: Thanks. Wish I could distinguish leaves from undesirables with 100% certainty throughout its growth cycle. Fortunately these found in area which rarely requires any herbicide.

By any chance can you advise as to optimized "hydra" eradication?

@terrineff Do you mean stumps are at waist height? I think that WWM would be good at any height since you don't have to use much pressure to actuate the valve. I did have one hiccup today with it. The valve got stuck open (must have pushed it a little too hard) and I lost a few ounces of glyphosate. I took it apart and inspected it. The design is actually rather elegant...the valve is a single piece of plastic with three legs that are twisted to keep it in compression like a spring. It's not a perfect design but it looks like it will hold up. Pushing it from the back side popped it back into position and it was good as new. I'll try to post a picture of it tomorrow.

@bill_g I made a handle for the buckthorn blaster, as well as similarly designed bottle daubers and molotow wide markers I experimented with, so I could use them without bending down. It worked fine in theory, except that the valves were so hard to actuate that if the sponge slipped off the stump there was a 50/50 chance it would be damaged or destroyed. That's why I'm sold on WWM.

terineff, Not sure what you mean by Hydra? Hydrophyllum virginianum is a very nice woodland plant that generally covers the forest floor. I"m don't think you want to eradicate that do you?

To gnomeabram : Yes, stumps at knee to waist height. Web photos just demonstrate pressing directly down in center of broadleaf weed, look forward to your photo. Some reviewers do indicate clogging with debris and leakage issues.

To dandy_line: Sorry, hydra as in explosive regrowth around base of seemingly dead BT. Use of lowest recommended % glyphosate our first two seasons resulted in ongoing kill attempts. From what little info online only solution is total recut and treatment of the main stump, foliar or individual branches cut & treat ineffective. Has that been your experience?

Terrineff, use full ag strength glyphosate, don't water it down, and mix a little dye in it so you can see that you got it solidly all around the cambium. I cut at a 45 deg or steeper angle, so there is more area to suck in the glyphosate (and it is easier because I don't have to stoop to lop it.). This has to be done July and later, when the sap is going down to the roots, not earlier when the sap is coming up.

Where you have a "hydra", spray the bottom 18" thoroughly with triclopyr and oil, problem solved. It has worked for me on even the monster ones, where each branch was 4" diameter.

It seems to me that if I try to do a minimalist solution, I should expect minimalist results.

To bill_g_wisconsin: While city's class taught us BT neophytes a good deal, BAD advice as to % herbicide effective. Primarily I'm tackling < 3" stump diameter resprouts; where broader surface area, absorbed sufficient herbicide to be toxic. What % concentration triclopyr do you apply? Thanks.

Here are some photos of a replacement head of the Weed Wand Magic. The first one is a side view, the sponge is about 7/16" thick.

The second photo is the business end of the applicator. Part of the reason I think it's easier to actuate is because the actuator itself is longer, about 5/16" long, so the sponge needs minimal compression to make it work. Also, the actuator is exposed, unlike competing products where the actuator is under the sponge, I think this helps reduce the change of it jamming.

The third picture is the inside and shows the design of the actuator mechanism. It's a single piece of red plastic. As you push the actuator, it rotates ever-so-slightly clockwise as it is pushed in, and rotates back when pressure is released. The only way it gets stuck is if you bottom out the sponge, which is pretty easy to avoid once you get a feel for it.

@terrineff: I was thinking about your Hydra issues, and realized that I personally have found very few hydras over the years, having cut thousands of buckthorns. Are most of your hydras coming from trees you cut at waist height? Maybe the herbicide is not travelling all the way to the roots when it's applied at this height. I've almost always cut everything right to the ground and experience minimal regrowth if I treat with glyphosate right away. You might want to invest in a something like the Echo PAS-225 power head + brush cutter attachment, it makes it easy to cut right to the ground without bending over.

I don't remember the original concentration of Triclopyr, but the full strength stuff is maybe 63%... then I mix 1/2 gallon of that triclopyr with two gallons of diesel fuel. The article posted here about the guy in Stillwater that took on a woods-full and won was mixing it 1:10 if I remember right. Usually, with the backpack sprayer, I ran very little pressure, so it just little more than trickled off the end of the wand. With the big hydras, I pumped it up so I could get all of the middle. Everything.

Long couple weeks BT work....

gnomeabram : You are correct, hydras primarily lopped knee to waist height 2016. By 2017 knew to utilize undiluted glyphosate for cut & treat. [BTW, no way Tom would allow me to use power tool but a good idea us working in tandem.]
bill_g_wisconsin: Thanks for Triclopyr tip, applying directly to hyrda trunk + new branch cuts and leaves surrounding base. Will monitor and post results.

Skimmed blog back to 2015. Did not get clarity as to effectiveness of fall foliar spraying. Seems spring superior, has that been group's experience?

Word-to-the-wise. Be aware one can reap headful of stickweed burs bending to retrieve lopper or applicator. Necessitated hair removal in multiple clumps, though at one point feared might need the mess cut out. Always a new adventure.

Those stickers are a mess, but could be worse. (off topic alert) A neighbor, new college freshman this year, had someone sneak up behind him while in the shower, and pour a bottle of super glue in his hair. Required hair removal to remove both of his hands from his head. Couldn't put on towel, couldn't use key to get into his dorm room, etc. I suppose that could have been worse, too.

Hard to think how. The idiot watch too many YouTube videos? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQFp4n1zCWA

Glad to see the good work continues. Hats off to all of you. I got into the woods and did a foliar spraying of my buckthorn (trunks less than 1” in diameter) last week. Used the 26 oz. of 41% glyphosate plus 3 oz. 2-4d per 2 gal. of water formulation that I had descent results with last year, also added a teaspoon of liquid dish soap and isopropyl alcohol. Accomplished my first fall prairie burn on Oct. 24, which was a partial burn of about a 1/2 acre. All my previous burns have been in the spring. I’m 5 years into the invasive battle and wonder if there will ever be a reprieve? If nothing else, it is a hobby that keeps one occupied and physically active.

Welcome back, Big B. Read your posts Tuesday searching for fall BT foliar spraying info. Couple questions: Does 2,4-D component kill now or in spring when rising temperatures stimulate growth? Also what is purpose of isopropyl alcohol?

Seems there will never be true reprieve. Love your upbeat sentiment viewing the work as a hobby activity. I refer to the effort as my therapy -- gets me outdoors and engaged with sense of accomplishment for small but visible victories over the gnarlys. Previously posted my mantra in this process has become "Rome was not built in a day".

Hi Terrineff, I added 2-4d to the mix per recommendation of this thread. So I can not honestly say when or how it kills the buckthorn? My hope is that with good timing and with temps in the 50-60s that it goes to work immediately before the leaves drop. We had a good dry week here last week and the temps were moderate, the buckthorn was standing out as deep green as most everything else was going dormant. So I am hoping that the green leaves absorbed the glyphosate in addition to the 2-4d. Last year‘s sprayed areas that I sprayed with this formulation seemed to have about a 90% kill rate with mostly only dead buckthorn stems left in those areas. As for the dishsoap and isopropyl alcohol, what I have read is, the soap helps with dispersion of the chemicals across the leaf and the alcohol cuts through the waxy protective coating on the leaf and allow the chemical to be more easily absorbed. Agitation of the spray canister is important, as the 2-4d will settle to the bottom if not shaken, I suppose the same is true for the soap and alcohol? Anyway, I am someone who tries to pick up valuable tips from online sources and the “old timers” and DNR types in my area that have experience in this sort of thing. in my case, much of it is trial and error, with hopefully not too much error. I agree, there is no better place, than to be outdoors in nature enjoying the peace and solitude.

That is a good thought about the isopropyl cutting through the waxy coating. I wonder if that helps kill Creeping Charlie as well?

If nothing else, I hope it gives the buckthorn and Charlie a helluva hangover!

If I read it correctly Big B, you are using approximately 10% chemical to water mix. Sounds about right for foliar spray.

Up here, the very last of the leaf shedding is over for the year. I managed to spend about 6 hours in the woods this week in the major public park, a lot of it on hands and knees to eradicate what I could. I had to leave behind a large area of a few thousands for next spring.. It will be a long running nightmare in my head all winter long knowing that they are still there waiting for me.

I know the feeling dandy. Yes there is always next year to follow up on what a person couldn’t get to this year. I looked back in this thread. In October of 2016 I was attempting my first foliar buckthorn spray and you set me straight that my first spraying attempt was only a 1% glyphosate solution, not a 10% as I thought. Thanks to the good people who post on this thread, you and they walked me through the math and got me up to a 10% chemical to water mix. It was a good lesson to learn.

Dandy, hows it going in Minnasota? I was wondering. Do you know the maximum amount of comments that gardenweb will allow on a thread? I wasn't even sure there was a maximum amount but I just read it somewhere. Thanks!

Hello Jay. I have no idea how many is the limit. I can't see why there would be a limit anyway.

But, I notice that this blog no longer is anchored to any topic. It appears the original "Native Plants" no longer exists and we are just hanging on by a thread to something generic. Garden web sold us out!

Folks are still here, though.

Curious what the thoughts are - do you all think that we should look into moving the discussion to it's own website?

Not tech-savvy, can the entire thread be transferred to new website? Admit being confused by "original 'Native Plants' reference as I stumbled upon this blog accessed via Houzz.

What I meant is that under Gardenweb there were lots of different forum types. At this point I cannot even find the directory of these forums anymore. At the top of this posting it simply shows "plants". Houzz itself has nothing to do with plants, We just came along for the ride when they bought Gardenweb.

I'm not suggesting we abandon this site, only that we are getting submerged into what Houzz is doing in spite of us.

Dandy, I have a lot of extra seeds. If you see anything you like, I'd be happy to share. I only have a few seeds for each milkweed I'm sowing so I'm planting all of those. Had a lot of Monarch caterpillars this year. Had to run to the nursery and buy 8 more milkweeds to feed them all.

Jay-I have seeds that you don't show on your list that you would like I'm sure. Do you have woodland areas?

Can you send me a PM so we can arrange a trade? I cannot find any info for you to be able to email.

Dandy, I haven't heard back from you. Do you still want to trade? I hope so! We can do it here, if you like. There doesn't seem to be much else happening anyway lol. But you still lead in number of comments lol.

A comment to keep the thread alive during dead of winter.

Now that we are winning the battle against the evil empire of BT, we need to replant with new shrubs and trees. Each one of us in Mn have a county Soil and Water Conservation District and their job is to help us reclaim our land by providing a plant sale each spring. Plants are sold in bundles of 25 and are extremely cheap, about $1 to $1.25 each plant. They are bare root so require pampering for a few years but the price can't be beat. Orders must be in by the end of February. Since we all pay for our own SWCD by way of taxes, it is up to us to receive the benefits. You can find them in the ph book or online.

I have probably bought close to a thousand plants by now. Examples are: viburnums, birch, spruce, fir, tamarack, cedar, and more.

Just my own suggestion. I hope everyone sees this while there is time to order.

Thanks for the reminder, Dandy! Last year, I did this and planted some viburnum and pin cherries. Unfortunately, I don't think that any survived, but probably because they needed more sun than the locations where I cleared buckthorn got. This year I'm going to try a bunch of wild plums, too.

What have you had the best luck with deeper in the woods?

I think the problem is that all of the bare root plants require attention for the 1st year at least. They need to be planted in a nice hole with loose organic soil and require watering during the dry months of summer. And don't forget about deer predation too.

My best success has been Balsam Fir but they get watered every summer. The past few years I've gotten 2+ feet of new growth each year to where I realize now that they were planted too close together. I have acidic soil though so that helps a lot. The chokeberry and viburnums take 5 years or so to bloom and set fruit. Do NOT buy the so called 'Red Splendor' crab apple unless it is for a windbreak as the cultivar does not come true. I made that mistake 15 years ago and they still sell it that way. Be careful of American Plum because it acts like it's a woody sunflower, ie, it will spread everywhere.

Tamaracks are spectacular around a swamp or kept watered. Of course Birch are aways welcome as well as Spruce and Cedar(but if anyone has Eastern Red Cedar on your property, kill it now!). Also Elderberry, Serviceberry, & Dogwood shrubs will provide bird feed.

I think my Elderberries are superior for bird life and recommend them to everyone. They should be real low maintenance too, ie, plant them and forget.

I can provide seed for most of these plants next year if anyone on the list wants some.

Glad to see this thread is still alive and well. I'm entering year 2 of murdering invasives and beginning to think about planting as well - mostly for 2020 but some possibly this year. I thought the invasive process was challenging to get my arms around but am beginning to think that there will be even more involved with planting.

Am planning a mixed meadow and woodland restoration on several acres of long over grown oak savanna.

One question I have is, if one has several acres of new plants comprised of seeds and plantings, how does one actually water it all if the only spickets are at the house over 100 yards away?

Another question is how to do this without spending all my time or retirement funds.

Well, I put my new woodland plants in a sheltered nursery bed close to the house for a year in order to let them grow some roots. The 2nd year I move them to new areas(with roots) and then manage to find a way to keep them watered for another year. My situation is worse than most in that I only have about 2" topsoil and nothing but sand underneath. A good soaking rain only lasts about a week before it is depleted.

Getting plants at the SWCD is what saves the retirement funds!

In 2007 I was able to take advantage of the Carino Nurseries "cooler sale" (unsold trees at the end of shipping season) and I was able to pick up 50 serbian spruce and 50 concolor fir (both 3-0) for a grand total of $39 including shipping. I bedded them for 2 years before beginning to plant them in the yard. To combat a severe deer infestation I made 3ft diameter "cages" out of 4ft high poultry netting for each tree (an substantial investment, but well worth it). I watered them for the first couple of years after transplanting during the dry stretches. Fast forward to today, sadly Carino Nurseries is no more, but about 70 of those trees have survived and thrived, most are now in the 10-20ft height range.

For this spring I've ordered 50 2-2 eastern white pines from Pike's peak nursery to plant mostly into post-buckthorn property boundary areas for screening purposes. I've found white pines do much better in rocky soil.

Dandy, have you ever tried hydrogel crystals with your plantings? They absorb water and hold it for a while. Maybe that will help your plants in that sand until they get better roots. I used some in my bucket garden last summer. In a 5 gallon pail, they recommend only a few tablespoons of gel because it swells to many times its size with water. It doesn't last forever, but maybe helps with a head start. That might be why all of mine died, too. I don't have a well on the property with which to water anything.

In 2019, opening a meadow in my woods, started this fall with a hillside area that was previously mature sumac, buckthorn, eastern red cedar, and other brush and undesirable grasses. Piled the slash into burn piles. Since we’ve only had 4-6“ of snow this winter it has worked out to burn the piles without much worry, as the snow cover on the ground provides a good buffer around the fire and keeps the fire intensity down. This fall, harvested 2 brown paper grocery bags of native wildflower and grass seed from my prairie restoration and will seed the burned out areas left by the burned piles. Hopefully, the prairie seed will take and if I keep this process going into the future, my vision is for a beautiful meadow in the woods. My philosophy has been to do most the work with hand tools, as it gives a person time to think and plan in the drawnout process. (also replaces a trip to the gym for a workout). I do resort to a chainsaw when a tree with trunk of greater diameter than 6” needs to be felled, but I love my Corona pruning saw and Fiskars loppers. I’m sure I’ll have follow up work to do when the sumac tries to resprout.

Cheers to the Warriors in 2019!

Thanks for the tip on bedding plants in a maintenance convenient location for a year or more before planting in their ultimate locations in the field! I did not know that was how it was done before you described it. Dandly_line incubated for one year, Gnomeabram for two, is there an optimum age or size for the move?

Hydogel crystals sounds like something worthy of consideration. My soil too is mostly droughty sand.

Our local conservation person says the buckthorn degrades the humus more rapidly than it would otherwise. Something to do with injecting abnormally high nitrogen levels. The humus should deepen with the buckthorn under control as the leaves fall from the deciduous plants. I'm told I probably don't have enough fuel for a controlled burn at present but perhaps in a few years.

Thanks, dandy_line, for reactivating what I term 'BT Blog'. Read thread back to my 10/9/18 bare root inquiry. Obtained Reyserville Ridge fall '18 catalog but ultimately decided against ordering; with mild temps plus winter rain seems would've been ideal fall to plant. I see March our next planting window. Based on blog info believe we'll try two-pronged approach -- portion nursed near house for 1-2 years, remainder sink-or-swim. Tom's a believer in soil augmentation though some websites claim it hampers root proliferation outside the prepared hole.

Thanks for tip on Elderberry. Learning a member of the sambucus family, decided must plant. Will add to smokebush trees which survived lack of watering and deer ignore. From RR plan to order Northern Catalpa, Kentucky coffeetree, hackberry, hickory, peach-leaf willow. Also various varieties of magnolias and sugar maples, in particular Korean maple. Property has very long viaduct which channels overflow from nearby small lake into our pond, keeps soil moist virtually all summer and could prove ideal area for bare roots.

terrineff, That pond area can be a support for numerous "wet spot" plants. Some of the most beautiful wild flowers are in that zone, like Hibiscus, Queen of the Prairie, Asters, Rudbeckia, Joe Pye Weed, Goatsbeard, Iris, Lily, Marsh Marigold, orchids, etc. Shrubs include Button Bush, Winter Berry, Dogwood, Tamarack, etc. Once you get the reed canary grass eliminated you could have a real showcase water side garden.

The elderberry's are real fast growing(fruiting in 3 years) and will fill in quickly plus provide for multiple of bird life.

To dandy_line: More good info. Confused Tamarack with Tamarix (ugly), glad to know it's member of the larch family. Believe there's 15-20' one growing on pond's opposite shore. Owing to hungry deer population avoid dogwood. Have you grown Button Bush or Joe Pye Weed from seed?

If garlic mustard desirable I'd have been gardeners' envy. Lived here two years before ventured into viaduct area where GM explosion. Sprayed a section fall 2016, entire viaduct area 2107. 2018 very little GM, rather various asters and bergamot appeared along with patches of fescue. CRG for some fortunate reason not nearly as much of an issue in 2018 either.

Yes I grew BB and JPW from seed successfully. and also Elderberry. I can send you the seed. Button Bush is hard to find zone 4 genetically. I have some Z5 from a swap that I'm hoping will flower.

That would be cool. Prairie Moon Nursery sells buttonbush for $25 per bare root!

Didn't find Hennepin County has SWCD program but adjoining Carver County does; one need not be a resident to order. Inconvenience though driving to Young America MN to retrieve on an assigned date ($10 daily fee for late pick up) but may be worth it. Considering ...

I sent you a pm, but forgot to fill in the msg hdr. Hope you got it

The pickup dates are always on Friday//Saturday. Shouldn't be a problem for most, unless you're out of town or something. I see that Carver has a deal with groups of plants which is a lot more convenient than 25 at a time. I bought the Red Splendor crab apple one time, all 25 of them and it was a big mistake. Ended up killing 23 of them because they were seed grown from a grafted cultivar. There was no color to the leaves, etc. I've complained but nobody listens. Anyway, the price is right. My Balsam fir are approaching 10' tall now in 6 years time.

Do you have any bald cypress trees that far north? Hey I was just remembering those pornographic cactus pictures I posted on this f orum lol. I figured not too many people would see them, but I wouldn't do something like that now.

I don't remember anything about erotic cactus pictures! Bald cypress only survives much farther south of here, Ill and Ind I guess is as far north. They must be a lot like Tamarack up here, being a deciduous conifer.

Dandy, I tried doing that animal identification, but I had trouble changing pictures. I'm telling you here because I don't want to appear over there. Why did you say my thread was viral? I've haven't seen it on youtube or anything. Because of the comments? It's just that I have a big mouth lol. I thought that Tamaracks and Larches were different species, but aren't they both the same? Do you have a trade list on your homepage? I think I'm going to finally do mine, and then in the spring add all my other plants to it.

Dandy, did you get all your seeds winter sown?

Dandy, I was looking around and I found Packera aurea, (Senecio aureus) seeds at Toadshade nursery.

Dandy, this place called Mountain Gardens has Packera surea plants.

https://www.mountaingardensherbs.com/