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terrene_gw

Do you think this is OE?

terrene
15 years ago

I am worried about this Monarch. It looks like it is going to eclose tomorrow and some black spotting has shown up on the chrysalis just this afternoon, as the wings are starting to show through as well.

I've had 5 Monarchs eclose and appear normal so far, with no black spots on their chrysalids. This chrysalis looked normal this morning, but now it doesn't.

Here is the chrysalis - do you think I should euthanize?? Or could this be normal? Thanks for your help.

{{gwi:531060}}

Here is what it looked like this morning, along with the 2 that eclosed this morning -

{{gwi:531061}}

PS I don't know if it's relevant, but the first 5 Monarchs were all collected as eggs. This one was collected as a 2nd instar cat. I've had several cats die, one had a malformed tentacle, and they were usually collected as caterpillars in various stages. They seem to do better when collected as eggs.

Comments (17)

  • tweetypye
    15 years ago

    I can't answer your question, since I've never grown butterfies, but after seeing your photos I'm curious as to why the two chryslis are black and the one in question is green? May be a stupid question, but I'm a newbie at this. :)
    Jan

  • karyn1
    15 years ago

    Jan the chrysalis will become transparent and the butterfly visible just before it's ready to eclose. As for the question about OE I have no idea.
    Karyn

  • terrene
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Hi guys, I spent all evening searching GW and google to research this. I'm afraid this butterfly might be infected, but this is only my 6th Butterfly ever!

    Help somebody! I know it's Labor day, and people could be busy, but hopefully Tdog or someone who is more decisive than myself can tell me what to do. I don't have the courage to euthanize and this butterfly is now completely clear and I know it's going to (try to) eclose today.

  • tracey_nj6
    15 years ago

    I had one with black spots too, and it eclosed without any problems. OE didn't occur to me at the time. I believe you can check it after it ecloses, for signs of OE, but I truly haven't a clue. Hopefully someone else will get back to you today. Did you check the FAQ; I vaguely remember seeing pics with OE and without OE on the butterfly...

  • tracey_nj6
    15 years ago

    I found a section on tdog's blog showing how to help identify OE on a butterfly. Hope it helps!

    Here is a link that might be useful: tdog's blog

  • bernergrrl
    15 years ago

    It could be OE, or it could be that the chrysalis is infected with Tachnid Fly larvavae. Tdogmom has a post about the tachnid fly. I don't know if a chrysalis would continue to develop, and your looks maybe a day or so from eclosing by looking at the wings. You could perhaps isolate the chrysalis and put it in a different container. Tape its cremaster to the top or to a stick.

    You might think about euthanizing it; any dark spots like that are not normal. It's a hard decision to make; if it has gotten worse and looks at all mushy; I'd put it in a baggie and put it in the freezer and dispose of it in the trash.

    I'm posting a link to my own question about a chrysalis that looks similar to yours.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Spots on Monarch Chrysalis

  • bananasinohio
    15 years ago

    One of the best sites for OE is Monarchparasites.org. It is the University of George's web site for their research program on OE. It gives detailed information on what OE looks like (including pictures of infected chrysalises) and how to test for it. You can even participate in their research program by sampling monarchs and sending it in. As you will note from their information, OE can be transmitted from Adult female to the egg. OE is not a rapidly killing disease, as opposed to a bacterial or viral infection. It will kill at all stages. Typically bacterial infections will kill at the pupa and cat stage. Viruses at the cat stage. OE has a distinctive pattern inside the chrysalis. I wouldn't give up on it yet but I might isolate it somewhere. If it starts to leak or the butterfly emerges with problems then it's time to dispose or euthanize the butterfly (Ziplock baggie in the freezer). Make sure you clean anything that it came in contact with very well with 10% bleach solution and rinse well.

    I spent some time last week catching monarchs and taping their little abdomens to check. They were all free. I wonder if the east and west coast have more problems (than here in Ohio) because their populations migrate to areas where OE is more endemic due to non-migrating resident populations.

    Good luck,
    Elisabeth

  • tiffy_z5_6_can
    15 years ago

    Terenne,

    I had two which had black on the chrysalis and I separated them from the others. They eclosed just fine - as quickly as all others - and the white on the tail end wasn't 'molted' as per tdog's site. Give them time though as the tail end appears molted when they first come out but as mine developed, they were fine. I compared them to tdog's photos after two hours and released them.

  • terrene
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Thanks for all the replies! They were a little reassuring and I decided to wait and see. No more spots appeared, but I fretted most of the day. The butterfly finally eclosed at about 2:30 PM. At first I was worried because its wings looked funny. One wing seemed to expand fine, and the other one was still crumpled. I was worried it would have a deformed wing.
    {{gwi:531062}}

    So I moved the butterfly over to the spent Sunflower stalk so it could hang more easily...
    {{gwi:531063}}

    And to my amazement, the crumpled wing expanded too...and her white stripes on the abdomen look pretty clear.
    {{gwi:531064}}

    She still a little floppy but she looks perfect!
    {{gwi:531065}}

    Bananas, that is a great website, and I think it would be interesting to get a butterfly tested for OE. They do say that a perfectly normal looking butterfly can have OE.

    This female flew off before I could even say goodbye however!

  • bananasinohio
    15 years ago

    Yes, a perfect butterfly can have OE but the spore load will be less. That is how it is transmitted from female to egg. I don't believe it kills like bacteria or a virus will, quickly that is. They will still live pretty full lives. There are resident colonies of monarch in florida that live with the disease. Interestingly, the type of milkweed the larvae feed on seems to effect the amount of disease. A. currassavica (tropical, bloodflower, mexican) seems to help afford some protection against the disease. As the site says, if the spore load is more than 20 per (oh, I forget how much 2cm of tape?) than the butterfly should be euthanized. The more the egg is infected, the more likely the adult will not survive.

    Glad it came out fine,
    Elisabeth

  • liljagster
    15 years ago

    What is OE?

  • todancewithwolves
    15 years ago

    It's a virus. Check out the website that tracey_nj6 linked.

  • bananasinohio
    15 years ago

    OE is Ophryocystis elektroscirrha. It is a protozoan parasite that lives on Monarchs. It can cause deformation and death if the load becomes to heavy. This is a major problem where monarchs are raised for sale as well as non-migrating populations. See the links above for more information.
    -Elisabeth

  • liljagster
    15 years ago

    Thanks! I did... and my gosh, I was doing the hobby for fun and now I have to worry about this! Monarch General (Hospital) is now open. j/k

    I haven't seen too many Monarchs come to my milkweed lately because it is so covered in aphids and milkweed bugs that it appears to be struggling itself. I saw one cat yesterday but I don't know how it will fair out with this mess. I've only seen 5 cats this whole season so far.

  • terrene
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Okay, I just noticed I kept saying "wing" above, when it should have been "wings", because they have a pair of wings on each side!

    Monarch General (Hospital) is now open...

    That made me smile. After reading these websites, I've gotten very concerned about ensuring the healthiest butterflies possible. I've even fantasized about getting a microscope - hehe!

    My understanding is that OE is transmittted when the larvae eat the spores on infected leaves, sprinkled there by the female when she oviposits. In the future I am going to try to collects eggs only, and even remove them from the Asclepias leaf. Then I will use sterile equipment and try to collect the freshest and youngest milkweed leaves - and wash them thoroughly to (try to) remove any OE spores.

    OE is an interesting pathogen. Apparently it co-exists with the Monarch population worldwide. Obviously it has evolved over the millenia along with Danaus plexippus, and that makes me wonder if there are Monarchs that may have developed some resistence?

    Anyway, I'm still thrilled that this female was okay. Waiting for two more to eclose any minute!!

  • tiffy_z5_6_can
    15 years ago

    Way to go Terrene! She's a beauty!

  • bananasinohio
    15 years ago

    Some people actually wash the eggs and leaves in a 10% bleach solution. Too much trouble for me. There are websites that tell you how to do it. I have washed leaves from the wild for my zebras. A virus (not OE) can wipe out all your caterpillars in 24 hours. Most of these viruses do not last in sunlight but paw paws grow in deep shade.

    I would not worry too much. Many will tell you they have raised lots of butterflies with no special precautions. Just clean the containers/cage out between cats and keep chrysalises apart. We had a chrysalis start to leak from the top of the cage onto food for the caterpillars. That was bad news.

    -Elisabeth

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