call your local high end nurseries.. this time of year..

and ask them if they are trucking in stock from the west coast.. for spring delivery..

and if they can add to their order ...

now is the time ...

in the alternative.. email places like iseli... and ask who the closest local dealer is.. that they deal with ... some websites have zipcode finders.. or some such thing ...

in your other post... you say you are z5 or 6 .. this will not live long if in fact.. you get z5 winter temps ... unless you have one spectacular micro climate ...

your local arboretums.. might have opinions on such ...

whats your closest large city????

ken

True zone 5 temps are rare, maybe twice a decade and typically.in the upper reaches, -12F or so. We hit -22F in the deep freeze of '94, but I cannot recall anything else below -17.

I am near Columbus. By the way, almost all others on GW agree the stenocoma is good for zone 5, as opposed to standard C. libani.

Cedrus libani subsp. stenocoma ok for Z.5 unless it sees -22F.

Needles range from green to glaucous blue-green, but are generally dark green in summer.. The blue/green the most desirable of the two.

For you I would recommend Cedrus deodara 'Eisregen'. A full-size upright conifer with slightly-pendulous branches. Very hardy selection, to at least -24 degrees. Beautiful glaucous blue. I grow it as a specimen tree.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful:

By the way, almost all others on GW agree the stenocoma is good for zone 5

==>>> i dont think so ... but whatever..

joe ... if you are playing the difference between your claim of -17 ... and -22 being z5 .. well.. i would not spend more than $40 on a one footer ..

absolutely EVERYONE i know in my z5 MI ... which is 12 miles north of the OH border.. has lost theirs ...

some peeps in a more metro area [compared to the blistering winter winds of my rural area] .. who think they are z5.. can find a micro climate.. ..

the real problem .. in my world. is that you will get it to live.. and then one winter.. 3.. 5.. 7 years down the line.. [and it will be after one summer when you say to yourself.. thats the best $500 i ever spent] .. mother nature will kill it ...

i dont have that kind of disposable budget.. to 'dare' mother nature.. to be predictable enough.. for those 5 degrees ...

but if you do.. knock yourself out.. and have the time of your life ... no matter my opinion.. i will respect you for asking for such.. and doing that which you wish ...

now go order one up ...

BTW... if you are in columbus.. ask dannaher what he thinks ...

ken

ps: my blistering winter winds brings to mind other winter issues ... min temp.. is only one variable of winter ... and that is basically what zone is ... my 30 to 40 mph winter winds.. make z5 a whole different story ... so though the roots may live .. you MIGHT.. end up with severe tissue burn... i do NOT know ..

Well, Ken, I appreciate the input. Here are my previous threads that gave me more hope...

Here is a link that might be useful: GW thread about hardy cedrus

I will ask Dannaher by the way.

Here was another Cedrus discussion...

Here is a link that might be useful: Another Cedrus discussion

joe.. bottom line.. i am a cheapskate .. i do not have a budget that involves RISK ...

i have played the game titled .. IF ANYONE CAN DO IT.. I CAN.. and all i learned was.. i couldnt.. lol.. and i wasted a lot of money ...

there are other peeps.. in the earlier stage of that game.. and they are still playing.. and have the budget.. to not care if they lose .. all the power to them ...

so please understand .. its all about the RISK.. and if you want to risk it.. and can afford it.. then you knock yourself out ... i have no vested interest in you NOT doing it ...

but if danaher has one to sell.. he will tell you its golden.. so watch that.. ask him to tell you were a 10 footer is.. lol ...

on a lot of this borderline stuff.. there is a theory.. that smaller is better.. to grow the root mass to sustain a large specimen .. with the lower investment ...

as compared to buying large .. and with all the attendant transplant shock.. you will never really know what killed it ...

transplanting large trees ... is harder.. the bigger you go.. and never forget.. that conifers are basically evergreen trees .. and its hard to hold all those needles.. when you chop off a vast majority of its roots [ball/burlap].. or buy a large pot-bound specimen ...

now you go do what makes you happy ...

have you made it to any local arboretums yet.. that is truly the best way to SEE.. what grows in the area ... and conifers.. are one of the few garden types.. that you can visit in winter ...

ken

Thanks for all the info. What throws me off is that almost all "sources" call stenocoma FULLY HARDY in zone 5. I wonder if it's one of those situations that while they can take zone 5 cold in Turkey, when outside their native area, there is something, be it soil, summer heat or rainfall, or something, maybe even the type and intensity of winter winds, that throws them off.

Now, it gets more interesting when I've seen some GWers say their C. deodaras (one of the hardy varieties) actually made it through winters that killed a stenocoma. I can't find it at the moment, but a GWer said they had a Karl Fuchs or Eisregen that survived what a stenocoma could not. Yet, most nurseries that I have seen selling stenocoma, or online references, almost always call it "zone 5" while even the Eisregen/Karl Fuchs/Kashmir deodaras never get rated better than 6, and sometimes 7.

Zones are weird.

As far as me, well, I already told you my actual cold weather history, but the "new" map puts me square in zone 6a, and the "old" map was 5b.

So Dannaher says the Stenocoma at Dawes died a few winters ago, I'd guess '08/'09 when we dipped below -10.

Zone 5b ok for me. Maybe you but definitely not for Ken to grow stenocoma. There is a world of difference between Ken's 5 and my 5.

Check around and see if any are growing in your local area that are 10-15 years old or older.

Dave

The State champion Stenicoma is located at Spring Grove Arboretum in Cincinnati. It did not perish in 93 and we were -25F.

Sources...I can't help with, but I think with Cedrus, as with any plant, but esp. with Cedars, root establishment is key to cold hardiness.

Ken, were all those Stenocomas perhaps large transplants when planted?

If so, perhaps for any survival, you just have to plant small and protect, and make sure they grow a heck of a root system.

Or maybe it is a sunshine thing, i.e. winter sun or lack of.

There's always the option of going on holiday to Turkey and collect your own, that's how I did it ;-)

It's a major forestry species in Turkey, they plant about 80 million a year there. So it might also be worth contacting Turkish forestry seed suppliers to make a large import.

Resin

What throws me off is that almost all "sources" call stenocoma FULLY HARDY in zone 5.

==>> first ... i think you are confusing REALITY .. with MARKETING .. lol .. everyone wants to sell as many high priced oddities as they can ...

hair suggested: If so, perhaps for any survival, you just have to plant small and protect, and make sure they grow a heck of a root system.

==>> i think i said the same .. with zone pushing.. start smaller ... to grow the roots.. to grow the tree ... it would be a VIGOR issue.. as much as a zone issue ...

dannaher quote DAWES???? .. i will yell.. HAVE YOU BEEN THERE YET???? .. see link for how i would plan and execute such ... conifers are one of the few garden plants.. that can be looked at in winter ... outdoors ... if you go.. take the camera.. and give us a tour ...

i see dave chimed in.. on the variability of z5 ... now if he sees that post about abies kor [titled DWARF CONIFERS] ... we would be all set ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Thanks for all the info.

Resin, I doubt a trip to Turkey is in my future, haha.

It seems odd that Kansas, which has SUNNY winters, would be better than Michigan or Ohio, where it's more often cloudy. I thought the lethal combo for conifers was frozen soil plus sunshine, something I'd presume is more common in Kansas.

There has to be something making the difference.

This spring, call around some of the nursery and landscape centers in Cincinnati. Many of them have been carrying Stenocoma, Atlantica, and now the hardiest deodaras for several years now.

Just remember than absolute minimum low temperature is only one variable that determines whether or not it will survive. The stenocomas in Cincy have seen temperatures lower than -20*F on several occasions, but the micro-climate at Spring Grove is not exposed to strong winter winds, and also even with temperatures that low, the ground doesn't freeze deep enough to freeze the roots. Also, that area, being in a valley in an industrial area, sees nice temperature rebounds after cold spells, so it doesn't stay that cold for very long.

Here's a weird one - what about a dwarf, that can then be somehow protected?

If I found a cedrus that is ground-hugging, a few out there exist but I can't recall the names...could I concievably mulch it somehow and grow it?

Would covering it to protect from cold damage it since it would be in the dark for three months?

Ken go 8mi. north of your place to Hidden lake garden
take a good look at a 27yr. old stenocoma that is over
40 feet tall. Then come another 40mi. north to my place
where I have one that is 15yr old and 30ft high.
Joe I also have deodar Eisregen- Karl Fuch and Polor
winter that have gone threw -17f and 14 winters.
I still recomend here that they all be planted in a
protected aera
Gary G

Gary,

Are your stenocoma plants grafts or seedlings?

Also, curious to know what rootstock you use for Cedrus?

---

Someone should be growing stenocoma seedlings in the USA. Not only is there a market, it's the hardiest of all Cedrus. I say they're hardier than the hardiest of the deodar selections... no doubt in my mind. I would rate stenocoma as 5a and the hardy deodara's as 5b.

Dax

My father in law in Medina, OH has 2 stenocomas he planted in 1990. They have gotten some pretty bad needle burn a few times, but both have survived intact and look great. They were small when he planted them, but both almost 40 feet tall now.

He claims the roots are key to hardiness. He actually mulches the root system with a deep layer of leaves. He claims this keeps the soil mostly unfrozen, so that if the sun comes out on a cold day, the plants can draw up moisture. According to him, this is what winterkills conifers - frozen roots that can't pull water to the needles when they need it. It's just that Cedrus has a lower tolerance to this than many other, hardier conifers do. He might be full of it, but his trees are alive.

I still recommend here that they all be planted in a
protected area

==>> nice to see you pop in gary g ...

my garden.. was horse rural horse pasture just a short 10 years ago .. read that winter wind ravaged ... what i call a cold z5 ... [joe.. wind chill temps are not factored in min winter temps.. which is what zone is .. but if wind burns all the needles off .. repeatedly .. then min temp might not be relevant]

hidden lakes.. mystifies me.. as you said 10 miles away .. and they grow all kinds of things that i cant.. i really think it has something to do with the glacial kettle the collection rests in.. my personal theory.. is that the prevailing NW winter winds .. blow right over the top of the confier collection ... e.g i can not grow a skylands.. for the life of me.. and they have a 30 footer.. whats that all about ...

as for your arb .. which you gave me a sublime tour of this summer ... it had those long rows of pines.. which you are slowly removing ... you started your arb.. by putting in the wind breaks.. allowing many borderline plants to survive long enough ... to create your own micro climate ...

as joe is a total newbie ... all i am trying to tell him is that micro climate rules.. on borderline zone plants ... [and its not simply zone .. but winter wind.. winter sun .. etc]

his first post said he is z5 or 6 ..

as long as ma nature delivers z6.. he should win ... but when she decides to mess with him ... and delivers a hard 5 ... unless he has that micro climate .. this plant could be questionable ...

bottom line.. i am enabling him.. but making sure he understands the potential loss of the investment ...

joe .. to get my collection to 500+ plants.. i have easily lost 100 plants.. understand.. trees/conifers.. are not easy annuals.. there is a loss factor .. and all i want you to understand.. is to start with the easier stuff.. get your learning curve up.. and then go after the harder stuff ... and now i think i am repeating myself .. over his various posts ...

ken

I can't say I really know if I have a "microclimate" or protected location yet, this is my first full winter in this house. The general challenge in the Columbus area is it's so FLAT. There are few hills to stop any winds. That said, my lot is mostly treeless. It was woods at one time, but the previous owner, something of an arborphobe, clear-cut most of it. So, on three sides I am surrounded by mostly mature trees and woods (deciduous), which might help SOME with the winds, but since it's mostly flat it might not help. I'm on a slight ridge, with one area of the yard that dips down, then back up as you walk back. The river is under a quarter mile away, that *might* moderate things a bit, but I imagine I'm too far to make a difference there.

Ken you should really visit Hidden Lake Gardens there is one that is 25+ foot. Thats is where we get our seed from. We also have one that has been growing in the garden for 20+ years it has seen -20 degress more than once. Gee Farms do carry larger specimens in the spring the catalog dosen't list the large inventory. Joe you may need to give it some west wind protection but cedrus libani stenocoma is perfectly hardy here in south central lower michigan. We are lining them out in the fields to grow specimens size stenocomas. The Cedrus deodora 'Eisregan' and 'Karl Fuch' are cedrus that I would highly reccommend. These plants are a seed strain from the high elevation in Pakastan. Ours have seen the same temps. as the libani.and they are now reaching 25' especially 'Eisregan'

fwiw, AcornFarms in Columbus has some 6 to 10ft hardy Cedrus Deodaras (Eisregen, Karl Fuchs) listed in their inventory.

I'm still a fan of Cedrus libani 'Eugene' for a hardy cedrus libani. Don Porterhowse will most likely be offering stock in the Spring, but it will be a small size, as it is a recent introduction.

I agree that protecting roots is key for surviving winter. Also, the larger the tree transplanted, the less likely it will satisfactorily root itself in a borderline climate.

Arrowhead Alpines in Michigan sells stenocomas. The good news is their nursery is in a colder climate which bodes well for the hardiness of their stock. The bad news is they sell smaller items. But you might consider the benefits of starting with a smaller tree.

Dufusyte, thanks!

Acorn is wholesale only though, aren't they??

Is "Eugene" a named cultivar of Stenocoma??

Dax
The cedrus that we are growing are grafted on deodar.
Funny you asked about stenocoma,I have about 1500 2yr
stenocoma seedlings that will be ready to graft next
year. I also have 60 seedlings from the Hidden Lake
plant.

Gary

I have Cedrus libani 'Glauca Pendula', 'Sargentii' and 'Beacon Hill' but not ssp stenocoma. I also have several deodar and atlas cultivars. But my weather is mild compared to yours, it doesn't freeze here. I really never have to challenge my plant's cold tolerances, thank God for small favors, good luck finding a hardy one. I do agree that getting a large tree isn't recommended, start with something much smaller and let it adapt to your conditions as it grows (it has nothing to do with money), a bigger tree will be more likely to go into shock over the new environment. It's hard to teach an old tree new tricks.

Joe - go to the in-town Oakland Nursery, find their nursery boss and have him check out what Acorn can get for you. Oakland and Acorn are businesses operated by a couple brothers as I hear it.
Marshall

Awesome Gary. Finally, the correct rootstock for Cedrus grafting!

Dax

But why for grafting? Why not as they are? Seedling diversity will be better in the long term, than lots of boring cultivar sameness.

Resin

Hi Rez,

Finally the hardy Karl Fuchs deodara's are going to be grafted onto stenocoma versus all past grafting onto less-hardy deodara seedlings. To date, there have never been Karl Fuchs selections put on on stenocoma. That's one half of what we're discussing.

Then, Gary has seedlings that are larger for strictly the sales of stenocoma, but has a new batch of younger stenocoma seedlings coming up that will be used as sole rootstocks for the zone 5 deodara's... a much more sensible approach for rootstock and scion match.

Dax

Gary - pardon my ignorance, but do you own a nursery?

Where you have these seeds ??
Clement

Joe, Gary has a wonderful nursery close to Jackson,MI. Check out Gee Farms website. Jay

Thanks.

Gary, I may have to drive up to visit!!

Do Cedrus tend to import coldhardiness into the scion from the roots at all?

Joe, no. The scion has it's own hardiness and so do the roots.

Seeds of the Karl Fuchs selections or other specimens themselves in the high elevations of Pakistan will be hardwired for hardiness. Same with stenocoma. There's Cedrus libani and then there's the varietal: stenocoma. The same applies to that of var. stenocoma. It grows at higher elevations and is genetically wired to colder conditions.

Dax

Clement was that question for me? were you asking where
the seed came from, I bought the seed from f.w.shewmaker
I"m not sure it came from Turkey but maybe. Or were you
asking where am I keeping the seedlings they are in 4.5
inch pots stored in cold greenhouse for the winter.

Resin I will use some for understock for deodar
cultivars and grow the rest for stenocoma plants.
The only reason to graft stenocoma is to get blue
color which is more in demand.
Gary

If I had to put money on which true Cedrus are the hardiest I would put it on the ones at Purdue. They have been there the longest and are the least protect of any older trees in zone 5. The issues with Stenacoma is that it is sometimes sold as a seedling type and other a grafted cultivar so there are variations in those plants.

After that I would go with Eisregen or Karl Fuchs and Eugene. Eugene in located in central indiana so it is not protected like Spring Grove. Based on the information from Eugene Who introduced it, it should be very Hardy.

I also had a collector in Indianapolis who said he Rates Eisregen the hardiest followed by Karl Fuchs and then Stenacoma.

As far as understock goes, Bob Fincham has always said deodara is perfectly hardy in zone 5 for that use and produces a better root system is my understanding.

I have had Karl Fuchs 5-6 years ago from Accorn and it has done very well. I also have a small Eugene

David
David

> Is "Eugene" a named cultivar of Stenocoma?

Nope. Check out the link below for the story on Cedrus libani 'Eugene'.

Compared to stenocoma, Eugene is anecdotally said to be hardier, as well as possessing a fuller form.

Here is a link that might be useful: The story on Eugene